Originally posted by ares834
Sith spirits, which are noticeably different than force ghosts.I'm not going to put any more merit in this DS ending than I would in RotS's.
The ROTS dark side ending is quite possible too, though Anakin kills Sidious via the element of surprise rather than an actual fight.
Scenes from the Dark Side ending are played out in the TFU Novels as visions of a possible future.
So I believe it is what would have happened had Starkiller made the choice to kill Vader.
Unfortunately the story that follows the Dark Side ending of TFUII has Sidious defeating Vader pretty damn easily as well. Which is just crap.
Hey, it's not Sidious's fault that most of the writers on the LFL payroll recognize he's smarter, more powerful, and better than everyone else in virtually every single way. Blame for this rests at the calloused feet of common sense.
Anyway, I actually don't think the fight will go that way. If we assume Marek and Vader have any reasonable understanding/impression of Palpatine, I'd say they'd beat him.
Originally posted by ares834
You know Palpatine is faking there, right? As soon as Anakin cuts off Windu's arm Palpatine quits moaning, shouts in triumph, and once again begins his lightning.
You know you're a dumbshit, right?
- And yeah, I'm sure once Palpatine realized he wasn't going to die, he did indeed shout in triumph.
Palpatine got weak not because he was running out of energy - he got weak because Mace was redirecting it back into him, and it was killing him.
Originally posted by ares834
In fact, Lucas says Palaptine "pretends to lose his powers and be weak".
Proof for this little bit of bullshit?
Originally posted by ares834
We see Mace struggling, we see him grimacing. So, no, it's not contradicted.
Wow. Your reading comprehension sucks.
Once again:
There is a huge contradiction here, Dumbshit.
- The whole crux of our argument is that you said if Sidious had continued his Lightning attack, Mace would have died, and he was lucky Sidious stopped
- The point the story made, and that I reiterated, is that if Sidious had continued his Lightning attack he would have died - nothing would have happened to Mace - the Movie makes it clear he was in control of the situation and that Sidious was dying from having his own Lightning redirected back into him, and that he couldn't keep hitting himself - until finally he wore out from (in effect) striking himself with his own Lightning.
Then after being subdued by his own attack - Sidious laid at the mercy of Windu - that should have been obvious to anyone with half a brain and 20/20 Vision.
So Mace was not in danger - if Sidious had not given up - he would have melted his own face into oblivion and died.
Mace had him beaten either way.
Originally posted by Rookwood
- And yeah, I'm sure once Palpatine realized he wasn't going to die, he did indeed shout in triumph.Palpatine got weak not because he was running out of energy - he got weak because Mace was redirecting it back into him, and it was killing him.
Yes, and as GL notes this weakness is, at least somewhat, fake. Hell, he stands up a few seconds later without any noticeable effort.
Originally posted by Rookwood
Proof for this little bit of bullshit?
RotS commentary. He also notes that Mace Windu does "overpower" Palaptine in the saber duel, meaning he did not lose that intentionally.
Originally posted by Rookwood
- The whole crux of our argument is that you said if Sidious had continued his Lightning attack, Mace would have died, and he was lucky Sidious stopped
Yes.
Originally posted by Rookwood
- The point the story made, and that I reiterated, is that if Sidious had continued his Lightning attack he would have died - nothing would have happened to Mace - the Movie makes it clear he was in control of the situation and that Sidious was dying from having his own Lightning redirected back into him, and that he couldn't keep hitting himself - until finally he wore out from (in effect) striking himself with his own Lightning.
We don't know how much longer it would have taken for Palpatine to be killed by his lightning. We know that Mace can no longer hold back the lightning as seen in the novel and we know Palaptine is feigning weakness. Yes, Windu's statements to Anakin are non-canon but the descriptions of him struggling and being unable to hold it back much longer are.
Originally posted by Rookwood
Then after being subdued by his own attack - Sidious laid at the mercy of Windu - that should have been obvious to anyone with half a brain and 20/20 Vision.
Strawman. I never once said Palaptine wasn't at Windu's mercy when he gave up the lightning. That's sorta the point. He's forcing Anakin to choose between Padme and by extension the Sith or the Jedi.
Originally posted by Rookwood
Mace had him beaten either way.
Sure. And Palpatine threw the force duel.
Originally posted by ares834
Yes, and as GL notes this weakness is, at least somewhat, fake. Hell, he stands up a few seconds later without any noticeable effort.
I'm sure the elation of survival and the fact that he ended up with Windu being killed gave him a temporary resurgence of strength; a boosting of morale.
Originally posted by ares834
RotS commentary. He also notes that Mace Windu does "overpower" Palaptine in the saber duel, meaning he did not lose that intentionally.
Well, yeah. Everyone knows he didn't lose intentionally.
Originally posted by ares834
Yes.
Quite.
Originally posted by ares834
We don't know how much longer it would have taken for Palpatine to be killed by his lightning.
Judging by his cries of pain and moans of weakness - I'd say he wasn't too far off from expiring had it continued.
Originally posted by ares834
Mace can no longer hold back the lightning as seen in the novel
Which again, is bullshit since the main Canon - the Movie contradicts that (Scroll-up to my other post for a memory-refresher if needed)
Mace was in control the whole time; Sidious was the one was consistently weak, until he chose to give up, over killing himself with his own Lightning.
Originally posted by ares834
and we know Palaptine is feigning weakness.
Wrong. Because as said before, everyone knows he didn't lose intentionally; so there was nothing to feign.
Originally posted by ares834
Yes, Windu's statements to Anakin are non-canon but the descriptions of him being unable to hold it back much longer are.
Bullshit.
As the movie points out - only Sidious (As he admitted twice) was unable to hold back Mace.
- Windu on the other hand was in control the whole time, and just fine.
He could have kept holding back Sidious's Lightning - and Sidious would have fried himself to death.
Originally posted by ares834
Strawman. I never once said Palaptine wasn't at Windu's mercy when he gave up the lightning. That's sorta the point. He's forcing Anakin to choose between Padme and by extension the Sith or the Jedi.
No, you missed the whole point - Mace had Sidious beat - and if Sidious had continued to fire Lightning at him, he would have killed himself in the process. Period.
Originally posted by ares834
Sure. And Palpatine threw the force duel.
The one where he nearly fried himself with his own Sith Lightning? Nah, Vapaad did that. Look it up. 🙂
I'm going to cut it down to the two main points to save time and space:
You are ignoring the fact that Lucas claims Palpatine pretends to be weak. What does this mean? It means he's faking. The "I can't hold on any longer" is a blatant lie. This is further supported by the moment where he, using the exact words in the script, "springs to life" showing this weakness is greatly over-exaggerated.
You are also ignoring the novelization, claiming that it is contradicted by the film as the film doesn't indicate Windu is struggling. However, just because Windu isn't moaning doesn't mean he isn't struggling. We see him grimacing in effort as he blocks the lightning and when he speaks it's in a strained voice. So no, I don't see how that contradicts the novel. The film is clearly showing that this is an incredibly difficult ordeal for Windu; the novelization just tells us how difficult it truly is.
Originally posted by The_Tempest
Marek showed no signs of exhaustion (nor do I recall any of them from the novel, which I admittedly don't have on-hand), in addition to the fact that we know Force users (Dooku) can replenish their energies pretty easily in even the most dire of circumstances.
And yet we've seen people like Luke take a while and need more time than that to recover in other area's of the EU. Theres nothing suggesting that a Force-user has infinite stamina. And jsut because he was not panting, does not mean that Galen was near his full power.
Originally posted by Nephthys
And yet we've seen people like Luke take a while and need more time than that to recover in other area's of the EU.
From injuries, sure. Or from more complex efforts like casting illusions on the fly. When did Luke need a while to recover because of combat fatigue?
Originally posted by Nephthys
Theres nothing suggesting that a Force-user has infinite stamina.
Agreed, since I didn't suggest it.
Originally posted by Nephthys
And jsut because he was not panting, does not mean that Galen was near his full power.
Right, but there's nothing suggesting he was fatigued and everything suggesting otherwise.
Originally posted by RookwoodBullshit.
As the movie points out - only Sidious (As he admitted twice) was unable to hold back Mace.
You keep ignoring that Lucas states he was faking his weakness.
Originally posted by Rookwood
- Windu on the other hand was in control the whole time, and just fine.
What? Mace was clearly struggling to hold off Sidious's Lightning in the movie!
Originally posted by ares834
The film is clearly showing that this is an incredibly difficult ordeal for Windu; the novelization just tells us how difficult it truly is.
The novelization depicts Windu as being unable to continue and fight against his own blade while the higher canon film renders that depiction obsolete. Your interpretation regarding editing means jack squat (BTW, I'm referring to 2:41). The film plainly shows Windu pushing back. Is he struggling? Yes of course. So is Sids. Sidious feigning being unable to continue doesn't mean he wasn't struggling as well. Both were struggling and both were able to continue.
Originally posted by Jinsoku Takai
The novelization depicts Windu as being unable to continue and fight against his own blade while the higher canon film renders that depiction obsolete. Your interpretation regarding editing means jack squat (BTW, I'm referring to 2:41). The film plainly shows Windu pushing back. Is he struggling? Yes of course. So is Sids. Sidious feigning being unable to continue doesn't mean he wasn't struggling as well. Both were struggling and both were able to continue.
I agree: Mace seemed rather fine when pleading his case, rather energetically, to Anakin, that Sidious needed to be killed. Sidious dared not attack until Anakin weakened and disarmed (dishanded, lol) him.
How does that relate to the thread? Sidious is not this uber-powerful person that some people make him out to be. I think the thread was over on the first page. Two 80 percenters versus one 100%. Alone, each would fail. Together, they should easily overpower and win.
Wasn't Starkiller said to have the same potential as the Emperor?
Otherwise why would Sidious want him as an apprentice, if he's 80%, which Vader is. Starkiller has the potential to be as strong as Sidious.
'Galen Marek was exceptionally powerful in the Force, with the potential to become one of the most powerful Force-users of all time. Emperor Palpatine believed that Marek's strength in the Force could rival his own in time. '
Originally posted by dadudemon
does that relate to the thread? Sidious is not this uber-powerful person that some people make him out to be.
but
Originally posted by dadudemon
Two 80 percenters versus one 100%. Alone, each would fail. Together, they should easily overpower and win.