TFU Vader and TFU Marek vs. Sidious

Started by KuRuPT Thanosi6 pages

Originally posted by ares834
Bull shit.

Yoda also failed to defeat Sidious. Does that make Windu superior?

No. The RotS novel makes it clear that Mace Windu could not defend against Palps lightning any longer. Lucky for him, Sidious let up the attack right then.

Nah, he really isn't.

He let up because he WAS KILLING HIMSELF. You act like he just let up to spare Windu.. COMPLETELY and TOTALLY FALSE and baseless I might add. The movie drives this point home with crystal clear presentation. Sids was frying himself... clearly if he continued he would've killed himself.

Originally posted by dadudemon
How does that relate to the thread? Sidious is not this uber-powerful person that some people make him out to be.

lol no.

Originally posted by dadudemon
I think the thread was over on the first page. Two 80 percenters versus one 100%. Alone, each would fail. Together, they should easily overpower and win.

👆

He was faking weakness in the sense that he could've continued to go on a little longer and not TOTALLY shot like he was making it out to be. That is the only feigning going on here and nothing more. He movie make it clear he was dying from his own lighting.. period... The only feigning is that he was totally done.. nothing more. Let's not act like he was perfectly fine and could've continued for hours. There are degrees of feigning and Palps was very slight. He was in serious trouble and could barely hold out any longer... barely holding out longer and totally done aren't far off when it comes to these types of battles with skilled masters. He was done.

That's cool, but do you have any evidence to support to what degree Sidious was faking?

I really don't see how anyone can say with certainty who would have won if Sidious didn't fake his weakness.

Sidious was the only one getting burned (although the novel claims the pain fueled his power) but clearly they were both struggling.

Ummm because the highest form of canon SHOWS Mace DISARMING Sids in Sabers. It then also shows the only person being overpowered in the froce is again SIDS. His face was outright being deformed and burned. No such evidence for Mace. How on God's green earth you could say you don't know who would've won is beyond me. Lucas straight out says MACE OVERPOWERED HIM which again was backed up by the highest form of canon. There should be no argument here. Mace would've won. As far as what degree is was feinging.. that is for the sids apologist to figure out. The facts are, that we was overpowered and disarmed. Period. Just because someone tries a last minute ploy to save his life and pretend to be a little weaker than he is.. doesn't change what we saw on panel. The degree to which is for the apologist to help them sleep at night

Easy, sweetheart. I didn't say Mace didn't legitimately lose the fight. I said you need to provide something other than your opinion.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Ummm because the highest form of canon SHOWS Mace DISARMING Sids in Sabers. It then also shows the only person being overpowered in the froce is again SIDS. His face was outright being deformed and burned. No such evidence for Mace. How on God's green earth you could say you don't know who would've won is beyond me. Lucas straight out says MACE OVERPOWERED HIM which again was backed up by the highest form of canon. There should be no argument here. Mace would've won. As far as what degree is was feinging.. that is for the sids apologist to figure out. The facts are, that we was overpowered and disarmed. Period. Just because someone tries a last minute ploy to save his life and pretend to be a little weaker than he is.. doesn't change what we saw on panel. The degree to which is for the apologist to help them sleep at night

No one's saying he didn't win the lightsaber fight. He did. And he could have killed him then and there.

I'm talking about the Force Lightning fight which went on AFTER Mace already gave Sidious a chance to surrender. Yes Sid's face was burning, but the novel claims he just used the pain to further power himself. Sidious was struggling, but so was Mace. But Sids stopped to pretend he was weak.

So like I said, I really don't see how anyone can claim to know what would have happened had Sid's not pretended to be weak.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
No one's saying he didn't win the lightsaber fight. He did. And he could have killed him then and there.

I'm talking about the Force Lightning fight which went on AFTER Mace already gave Sidious a chance to surrender. Yes Sid's face was burning, but the novel claims he just used the pain to further power himself. Sidious was struggling, but so was Mace. But Sids stopped to pretend he was weak.

So like I said, I really don't see how anyone can claim to know what would have happened had Sid's not pretended to be weak.


Finally someone agrees! 👆

Originally posted by The_Tempest
lol no.
Originally posted by axel_jovan
Why yes...yes, he is uber-powerful,

That's not the same as saying this:

Sidious is not this uber-powerful person that some people make him out to be.

There are obvious limits and Sidious is not the end-all be-all of Star Wars characters. Sure, he's powerful, but not absurdly more powerful than everyone else.

Originally posted by dadudemon
That's not the same as saying this:

There are obvious limits and Sidious is not the end-all be-all of Star Wars characters. Sure, he's powerful, but not absurdly more powerful than everyone else.

That strikes me as a futile attempt to camouflage ignorance with a blatant strawman. No one contended that Sidious is "absurdly more powerful" than everyone, but there are only a small handful of characters who can contend with him.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
That strikes me as a futile attempt to camouflage ignorance with a blatant strawman. No one contended that Sidious is "absurdly more powerful" than everyone, but there are only a small handful of characters who can contend with him.

Very small... like microscopically small... like plank length small...

BTW, on a side note... Star Wars Episode 7 to be released in 2015.

http://tv.yahoo.com/news/star-wars-episode-7-coming-2015-lucas-hands-205350873.html

Discussion begins in the 'Star Wars: Literature & Expanded Universe' forum.

Ummm because the highest form of canon SHOWS Mace DISARMING Sids in Sabers. It then also shows the only person being overpowered in the froce is again SIDS.

Indeed, "highest form of canon" sounds cool but with this statement you can go to film only threads, here we discuss EU and consider all feats.

In TFU book Marek grabbed Sidious by wrists and made him taste his own lightning like Mace. Not only this struggle lasted relatively as long as with Windu but it culminated with enormous explosion.

"No!" the apprentice cried, dropping his defenses to strike one last time at the Imperials. Energy surged through him. He felt as though a star had blazed to life in his chest. Driven by concern for his friends rather than himself, he embraced the Force completely, utterly, and was rewarded with strength that made his efforts with the dark side look like those of a child. His nerves were on fire. Streamers of light radiated from his skin. His bones glowed like radiant lava.

He saw rather than felt the massive shock wave that consumed a large portion of what remained of the one observation dome. A glowing bubble of fire tore the stormtroopers to shreds and engulfed Vader and the Emperor. Shrapnel filled the air like dust caught in the beam of the Death Star's powerful laser.
...
Weakened by the blast, the dome's supports gave way. It collapsed into the superlaser dish, triggering a series of conventional explosions. Stormtroopers converged on the site. Through the dense smoke, two figures were visible from the apprentice's rarefied perspective.
Darth Vader struggled to his feet from the rubble, even more damaged than before. He reached out for support and found only his Master, scowling.

The explosion torn troopers to shread, caused a dome to collaps and even damaged Vader. Sidious was right next to explosion, yet, he didn't even lose his footing like Vader and was seemingly unaffected.

If Sidious can resist such a powerful explosion after suffering from his own lightning, then he definetely can resist lightning for much longer.

You could still argue that he became more powerful since RotS, which imho is true. Yet, his body at that point was weaker as he was much older and the darkside was decaying his body from within.

Originally posted by Jinsoku Takai
BTW, on a side note... Star Wars Episode 7 to be released in 2015.

http://tv.yahoo.com/news/star-wars-episode-7-coming-2015-lucas-hands-205350873.html

Discussion begins in the 'Star Wars: Literature & Expanded Universe' forum.

And thus the whole post-ROTJ EU will be retconned.....

Originally posted by Arhael
Indeed, "highest form of canon" sounds cool but with this statement you can go to film only threads, here we discuss EU and consider all feats.

NOT when secondary canon is rendered obsolete, as it was for that particular part of novelized version of the Windu/Sidious duel.

The novel states that Windu had no power left to fight against his own blade... which was obviously not true (as I have shown).

Seeing as how KT's comment was a response directly regarding the Mace/Sids duel, your utilization of his comment to support your 'TFU Sids' argument makes little sense.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
That strikes me as a futile attempt to camouflage ignorance with a blatant strawman. No one contended that Sidious is "absurdly more powerful" than everyone, but there are only a small handful of characters who can contend with him.

Okay. May bad. Let me explain more plainly.

Some, that have posted in this thread, make it seem like Darth Vader + Marek may not win.

That, to me, means they think Sidious is absurdly more powerful than all other characters.

Go back and read all of the posts. Some of them make it seem he's absurdly more powerful.

Well the databank states that Marek was 'ultimately no match for the power of Darth Sidious.' And we all know that Vaders fear in Sidious is justified considering he killed him with a 5 second burst of lightning. I don't think that he could necessarily win, but I certainly don't think that this is a stomp in their favor.

Originally posted by Jinsoku Takai
The novelization depicts Windu as being unable to continue and fight against his own blade while the higher canon film renders that depiction obsolete. Your interpretation regarding editing means jack squat (BTW, I'm referring to 2:41). The film plainly shows Windu pushing back. Is he struggling? Yes of course. So is Sids. Sidious feigning being unable to continue doesn't mean he wasn't struggling as well. Both were struggling and both were able to continue.

Sure, but when he pushes forward that's right at the onset of the duel. It isn't until the end that Windu is unable to hold it back any longer.

Anyway, I think it's best to just agree to disagree on this. I've seen this argument done countless times (done it myself quite often) and I's unlikely that anything will change this time.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Well the databank states that Marek was 'ultimately no match for the power of Darth Sidious.' And we all know that Vaders fear in Sidious is justified considering he killed him with a 5 second burst of lightning. I don't think that he could necessarily win, but I certainly don't think that this is a stomp in their favor.

Have a link for this source...

😛

Originally posted by axel_jovan
And thus the whole post-ROTJ EU will be retconned.....

Good. Those books were shit anyway.

And something tells me the new movies might not be much different.

Although it would be better if that whole franchise just laid down, and died..

Originally posted by ares834
Lucas claims Palpatine pretends to be weak.

Source.

Originally posted by ares834

What does this mean? It means he's faking. The "I can't hold on any longer" is a blatant lie.

Just in case you haven't realized - it isn't 2005 anymore. It's 2012; and people know that Sidious wasn't faking - the fight wasn't thrown; Sidious was beaten and at Windu's mercy.

In fact, if you watch the movie, and see the part where he's saying he can't hold on any longer - his face is in great pain, his eyes are rolling back in his head and he's almost gasping - he's clearly close to being fried to death and it's highly visible.

Mace fought Sidious and Sidious lost. If Sidious had continued to fire Lightning at Mace, then Sidious would have died from the feedback going into him. This is obvious; Mace had him decidedly beaten here.

Originally posted by ares834

This is further supported by the moment where he, using the exact words in the script, "springs to life" showing this weakness is greatly over-exaggerated.

Ever seen someone go through a near-death experience, and then suddenly they find the strength to jump up in joy and elation?

Yeah; that's called a morale boost.

Originally posted by ares834

You are also ignoring the novelization,

Which is bullshit.

Originally posted by ares834

as the film doesn't indicate Windu is struggling.

Exactly, and do you why that is?

I'll give you a few moments.

- The reason is, is because Windu was in control - yeah, blocking Lightning back can be a chore - but the only person losing in this deal is Sidious, who is slowly being fried to death - and clearly can't hold on - until finally he gives up; or faces certain death.

Originally posted by ares834

So no, I don't see how that contradicts the novel.

Time to buy some glasses, Slick.