Vitiate vs. The B team

Originally posted by Nephthys
That seems odd given the evidence. Do you truly believe that the quote saying that he can 'wither and ruin even the strongest Jedi's connection to the light side" is non-canon?

I truly believe that it's incongruous with his demonstrated abilities and runs contrary to authorial commentary on the subject. It's an in-universe, hyperbole-infused piece of literature.

Originally posted by Nephthys
I'm really not seeing how Palpatine is comparable. Vitiate's telepathic abilities are held up as uniquely powerful, possessing of 'incalculable powers of corruption'. As a child of 10 he was able to defeat and mindrape his Sith Lord father and he has only gotten hugely more powerful since then. That counts as a fair fight without a ritual or nexus on hand surely. Scourge was in agony from a brush of his mind and he's turned dozens of jedi to fear, madness, and evil with his mental powers. Sidious just hasn't dominated anyone to the extent that Vitiate has.

Without aid, Palpatine has telepathically influenced on a vastly larger scale than Vitiate ever has. Billions on Byss and countless on Coruscant. And I've already pointed out that Vima Da Boda, an aged Jedi Master, was similarly affected by the Emperor in Dark Empire II. He and Plagueis asserted themselves over the Force. Nothing Vitiate has done blows that out of the water.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Unuthul is no Vitiate.

Vitiate is no UnuThul.

Originally posted by Nephthys
He was immensely powerful, but nothing suggests he was close to Vitiate as a telepath or in regards to his dominating abilities.

UnuThul was plenty powerful as a telepath as demonstrated by his ability to influence Luke through sheer brute telepathic force.

Originally posted by Nephthys
But ignoring Sidious and Luke, are they the extent of what you mean by 'high-level?'

Edit: Also, as Legend mentions, even though Revan and Malak were close to the darkside, it only took a fraction of his power for Vitiate to dominate them. I doubt it would make a difference were they not that close to falling.

Not sure. It's not my place to assign an arbitrary cut-off, but Karpyshyn opines that Vitiate would be unlikely to enslave master-level characters without some serious prep-time.

Against Sidious and Luke? He's not gaining any traction.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
1. If it was lightning then those bodies may have been burned but this is not implied.

2. I am not aware of Telekinetic applications potent enough to knock out powerful Force-users in this manner.

------

I suspect a very advanced application based on Sever Force talent.

Could be. As I said we don't really know.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
You are making no sense here. He cannot be superior to her in the context of having different talents then her.

Why? Just because he is superior to her does not mean he is superior to her in every aspect.

Ares, I'm gonna ask you just one question.

Why?

Originally posted by ares834
Could be. As I said we don't really know.

Originally posted by ares834
Why? Just because he is superior to her does not mean he is superior to her in every aspect.

In case of Vitiate, we are dealing with lot of possibilities since his story leaves room for lot of creative liberties.

In his relentless pursuit of immortality, the Emperor explored the most sinister, uncharted depths of the dark side. (SWTORE, Page 161)

Originally posted by The_Tempest
I truly believe that it's incongruous with his demonstrated abilities and runs contrary to authorial commentary on the subject. It's an in-universe, hyperbole-infused piece of literature.

It isn't in-universe. Similarly it is not incongruous with his demonstrated abilities. The only time he's been shown to fail at corrupting someone is when the guy had thought up a specific counter to his ability after already falling prey to it. There isn't anything contradicting the idea that he can ruin even the strongest of Jedi. Finally, Karpyshan's opinions are not canon by themselves. The descriptions of his abilities in the Swtor codex and encyclopedia definitely indicate that he can and has mindraped opponents in combat, so Karpyshan's opinion is contradicted by canon.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Without aid, Palpatine has telepathically influenced on a vastly larger scale than Vitiate ever has. Billions on Byss and countless on Coruscant. And I've already pointed out that Vima Da Boda, an aged Jedi Master, was similarly affected by the Emperor in Dark Empire II. He and Plagueis asserted themselves over the Force. Nothing Vitiate has done blows that out of the water.

The Byss thing is irrelevent as I've pointed out before. I don't know why you keep bothering to bring it up, it has no baring on a combat scenario. Similarly Sidious' feat with Plagueis is pointless to mention. Explain to me its relevance in this discussion. Is he going to influence Vitiate over several months too? Lol.

The Coruscant thing is highly impressive, yes. Very highly. But its still not an actual combat feat, yes? Perhaps he used focusing crystals or a ritual, haha. Or he could have gathered all his power in order to do it. No, it is really great, but its still not comparable to actually corrupting a Jedi with his mental dominance and enslaving them imo.

Vima Da Boda had a diminished ability to use the Force and was a crazy old lady. And he merely scared her. It still isn't comparable to what Vitiate did with a mere brush of his mind to Scourge, who was in mental agony, witnissed unspeakable horrors beyond the scope of the darkside and literally collapsed and spasmed on the floor 'like a child.' haermm

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Vitiate is no UnuThul.

Indeed, UnuThul is an insane Jedi Knight given extraordinary power. Vitiate is a darkside master with unparalleled powers of corruption.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
UnuThul was plenty powerful as a telepath as demonstrated by his ability to influence Luke through sheer brute telepathic force.

'Plenty powerful' isn't going to cut it. If his only feat is influencing Luke that's not close to enough to show him to be comparable to Vitiate. How strong was Lukes tp at the time?

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Not sure. It's not my place to assign an arbitrary cut-off, but Karpyshyn opines that Vitiate would be unlikely to enslave master-level characters without some serious prep-time.

Against Sidious and Luke? He's not gaining any traction.

What a ****ing cop out. You're allowed to have a opinion dude. Like, Dooku? Do you think he could enslave Dooku? What about Kenobi? Jacen?

Plus I thought Karpyshan only said he could enslave them, if he had a moment to prepare or something. It definitely didn't say 'serious prep-time.'

As you point out, Luke was severely pressed by UnuThul. And as Legend pointed out, Luke was only able to resist him by bombarding UnuThul with information of their past history.

Personally I just thought that with so many sources trumping Vitiates mental abilities, with descriptions of him turning dozens of Jedi, the legend of Nathema, the way he broke his own father at age 10, you'd have at least accepted that Vitiates telepathic powers were formidable.

Please read and reply to my Anticipated Clarification message; it's going to dictate the nature and spirit of my response here.

I'm just about to go to bed, so I will tomorrow.

I'm asking about your honest opinion here though. No games. No ego. No trying to win. I'm trying to respond honestly and earnestly on my end too. I won't hold it against you in future debates if you opine that Vitiate probably is All That.

Then I will reread your posts in the new light of compromise and respect. 🙂

I mean, I already said that I think top tiers can probably resist him.

Well, Sidious as an apprentice was already influencing Plaguies's mind.

Neph, not that you have to respond or anything, but my rebuttal is on page 8, in case if it was drowned in the posting (IDK why KMC hasn't gotten alert systems).

I read it, its just that you're right about us talking in circles and I see no point in repeating my argument again. Vitiate owning the strike team proves in my eyes that he can beat the B team too.

I laughed at your laser canon suggestion though. Fyi. Vitiates fortress is filled with powerful artifacts, sith and imperial guardsmen. Its more likely that Vitiate will use some artifact on them or perform a ritual with or without his retinue to own them.

Originally posted by Nephthys
I read it, its just that you're right about us talking in circles and I see no point in repeating my argument again. Vitiate owning the strike team proves in my eyes that he can beat the B team too.

Well, we'll have to agree to disagree, because I find it rather arbitrary for you to argue that Vitiate can take out the B team while holding off Windu, based partially on your claim that his lightning is somehow superior to Sidious's (even if dispersed over several square meters).

Your conjectures seem not to fit with the fact that Vitiate had to focus his energies to take out Revan; otherwise, the Jedi probably would have killed him.

I laughed at your laser canon suggestion though. Fyi. Vitiates fortress is filled with powerful artifacts, sith and imperial guardsmen. Its more likely that Vitiate will use some artifact on them or perform a ritual with or without his retinue to own them.

My point is that, throughout the entire exchange, I was generously assuming that the four Jedi would stupidly charge straight at Vitiate without any prep or tactical plan.

Yeah, I don't see why thats not a thing that is totally true and would happen. He owned the strike team, so he should be capable of owning Fisto, Tiin and Kolar while holding back Windu or slowing him down.

Vitiate has grown more powerful since then, since he received a boost from constantly draining Revans power and received additional power from Sel-Makor. He know has Revan and Sel-Makors boon to aid him in taking them down. Not to mention whatever else he's done to increase his powers.

You mean, kinda like they did against Sidious? As I said, theres only a single walkway to Vitiate so they need to come at him head on.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Yeah, I don't see why thats not a thing that is totally true and would happen.

Yeah...I think I see the problem here.

1. Prove that a dispersed lightning storm could hold off Windu.
2. Prove that Vitiate's lightning > Palpatine's lightning to a sufficient extent that he could overpower Mace Windu (note that in the films he pushes his lightsaber towards Palpatine's face and scars it, so he's hardly at his limits), even though Sidious is more powerful overall.

And again, you laughed at my laser cannon idea, but there's nothing preventing the masters from trying some sort of tactical approach (they were trying to arrest Palpatine without a fight). I forgot about the PT Jedi's disdain for blaster weaponry, but Yoda doesn't seem above saber throws.

Why not have the three B team Jedi toss their sabers at Vitiate, while Windu takes advantage of the distraction?

So I’ve sat here for a while and I’m not sure how I can better clarify myself on this subject for you.

If you don't feel like replying, thats cool.

Well I feel like I've made myself pretty clear, brah.

And you don't feel that anything I said or that's been brought up in this threads changed your perspective or warrants comment?

Originally posted by Nephthys
And you don't feel that anything I said or that's been brought up in this threads changed your perspective or warrants comment?

Well it didn't change my perspective at all, no. As for warranting comment, I don't want to leave you hanging, but I've sat here for an additional 10 minutes since your post trying to concoct a response that will satisfy your deepest desires and I'm pretty much directionless.

My opinion on Vitiate has stayed pretty much the same since 2011. The fact that the guy who wrote the book and heavily contributed to the game's storyline has come out and pretty much confirmed my 2-year interpretation practically verbatim hasn't given me any reason to change my mind.