Vitiate vs. The B team

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
That was the situation [B]before his first major transformation. After this transformation was complete, Vitiate was capable of pulling off the Nathema like feat single-handedly.

Try to comprehend the underlying message in the following revelation:-

Vitiate was capable of matching or exceeding Nihilus in every aspect. In-fact, Nihilus was a slave to his own power; in contrast, Vitiate had absolute control over his power.[/B]

Yeah. None of that says he can pull it off on his own. All it says is that his power is greater than ever. Saying he can perform it without another massive ritual is just speculation.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
That information was about why Vitiate lost to HoT in a fight. Try to follow the argument or its purpose.

😂

I did and it led to this statement:

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Sith Sorcery is a pathway to unlock most dangerous dark side abilities/powers.

Vitiate can unleash dark side energies in their purest form (Sith Sorcery based talent) and it is at this point when his powers become impossible to handle.

When Zannah unleashed dark side energies in their purest form (via her Sith Sorcery based talent), Darth Bane had no answer for such an attack. In contrast, Vitiate is a daddy of Zannah.

Do the math.

You were arguing that Vitaite can unleash incredibly potent sorceries that are nearly unblockable. This then led into RotS Sidious own sorcery skills etc. Our discussion had nothing to do with HoT...

Oh, and BTW, Vitaite has, to my knowledge, never displayed such a power.

Originally posted by ares834
A vast majority of characters sure. But the higher tier characters should be able fend it off for at least awhile IMO.

"The Emperor can wither and ruin even the strongest Jedi's connection to the light side."

The only way to resist such a power is to develop a special kind of counter to it or through aid of other individuals who specialized in the telepathic aspects of the Force.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Probably the truly top-tiers could. Luke, Sidious, Yoda etc.

Sidious managed to hone his telepathic abilities to a great degree but he had yet to reach the stage of influencing powerful Force-users with it in the same manner as Vitiate could. In addition, Sidious's greatest shortcoming is in his own defensive abilities.

As far as the Jedi are concerned:-

"The Emperor can wither and ruin even the strongest Jedi's connection to the light side."

I recall Yoda and Luke not being able to cope effectively with the dark side environment of Dromund Kaas when they visited this world. This revelation suggests that Vitiate's telepathic abilities might be overkill for them.

I recall that Luke was once overwhelmed by Nyax's telepathic abilities and managed to resist it with aid of his allies. He faced a comparable threat from UnuThul but managed to protect himself by bombarding UnuThul with information of their past history. However, Luke have nothing on Vitiate.

Originally posted by samfreedman77
No it does not. Vitiate can mindrape you unless he's preoccupied, or allows you to stand before him.

Once again, the passage makes no reference to any exceptions. It simply says that none can stand before him without succumbing.

The fact that certain characters did disproves this contention. Now if the statement read "none can stand before him without succumbing unless he allows them" (which is again disproved by Revan's active resistance in the climax of his titular book, to say nothing of the resistance of the Hero of Tython, Kira Carsen, Tol Braga, and the lack of effect on Scourge and the Exile), I would understand your interpretation.

But the fact remains that the passage says none. And that's simply not the case.

To say nothing of the fact that Karpyshyn's own interpretation of Vitiate's powers imposes limitations on his powers. Anything to the contrary is a blatant no-limits fallacy and is undermined from sheer fact (the aforementioned examples of Vitiate's enslavement being broken), context (i.e. he's never simply snapped his fingers and enslaved anyone to my knowledge), and authorial commentary (Karpyshyn's words on the subject).

Originally posted by Nephthys
Who do you suppose he could mentally subdue, based on the evidence Legend and I have posted?

Originally posted by ares834
Yeah. None of that says he can pull it off on his own. All it says is that his power is greater than ever. Saying he can perform it without another massive ritual is just speculation.

Vitiate was siphoning energies from countless individuals/souls to fuel his power after his first major transformation; he wouldn't have needed direct support of his minions to unleash destructive power on planetary scale during this stage. He may have been reluctant to perform Nathema like feat again and again (after his first major transformation) because it would be impossible for him to conceal these developments and may have invited lot of unwanted attention. Even the event of Nathema didn't go unnoticed eventually. The game based story reveals that Sith Emperor is very secretive about his personal plans (He eventually started the war with the Republic, but on the back side, his true motive was to execute his ultimate plan - his ultimate transformation in to an invincible Force, busting the galaxy itself in the process.).

Originally posted by ares834
😂

I did and it led to this statement:

You were arguing that Vitaite can unleash incredibly potent sorceries that are nearly unblockable. This then led into RotS Sidious own sorcery skills etc. Our discussion had nothing to do with HoT...

Oh, and BTW, Vitaite has, to my knowledge, never displayed such a power.

He purged an entire Dark Council once with a mysterious power; most likely a Sith Sorcery based talent. This is greatest display of power in combat situations in the mythos till date.

You need to learn a lot about Vitiaite, it seems.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
My point is that he could pull off Nathema like feat single-handedly after his first major transformation.

Vitiate was siphoning energies from countless individuals/souls to fuel his power after his first major transformation; therefore, he wouldn't have needed direct support of his minions to unleash destructive power on planetary scale at least, should he have made a decision to do so. He may have been reluctant to perform Nathema like feat again and again (after his first major transformation) because it would be impossible for him to conceal these developments and may have invited unwanted attention. Even the event of Nathema didn't go unnoticed eventually.

Speculation.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Really?

He purged an entire Dark Council once with a mysterious power. Most likely a Sith Sorcery based talent. This is greatest display of power in combat situations in the mythos till date.

You need to learn a lot about Vitiaite, it seems.

And Speculation again.

Well he did one-shot the Dark Council. That is a massively powerful feat.

It is. But he is using that as evidence that he can perform a Zannah-esque sorcery. It could have been anything though TK, lightning, or anything else really.

BTW, where is it stated that he one-shot the council? I know he killed them all, just can't remember it being in one attack.

'During a violent tempest, Darth Lokess called a secret meeting of her eleven fellow Dark Council members. Under the cover of night, the Dark Council met and heard Darth Lokess describe a brilliant and daring plan to overthrow the Sith Emperor, end his relentless exile, and lead the Empire back to war against the Republic. An army of Sith under the command of Darth Lokess were stationed outside the meeting, ready to slay any Dark Council member who refused. But they all agreed to depose the Emperor.

It remains a mystery how the Emperor learned of his council's treachery. He allowed their plan to play out, but when they gathered to confront the Emperor, his punishment was swift and devastating. Eleven members of the Dark Council died in a sudden flash on the steps of the Citadel. The last member Darth Lokess, disappeared forever, though for some centuries some claimed her screams could be heard from the bowels of the Citadel.

A new council was immediately appointed to replace the traitors. The Emperor had made his point: his will was absolute, and none would oppose him. And though this was not the last time the council would defy the Emperor, his lesson would humble the Empire and its Sith leaders for centuries to come.'

(SWTOR Encyclopedia, Page 156)

Neph,

Barring a dark side nexus and/or rituals and assuming his opponent is on his guard and not on the precipice of internal conflict? No one high level.

Sidious, for example, mindfvcked Luke while on Byss and caught Starkiller in a moment of deep internal conflict (to kill or not to kill Vader). And he's at least a comparable telepath to Vitiate.

Likewise with UnuThul, who was able to telepathically influence an unprepared Luke at the beginning of the Dark Nest crisis but was woefully impotent by the time of the climax.

Originally posted by ares834
Speculation.

Here is a fact: Vitiate > Nihilus

Accept this and move on.

Originally posted by ares834
And Speculation again.

Check the revelation by OP (Nephthys).

By the way, Vitiate is superior Sith Sorcerer then Zannah.

@Nephthys

This response is for your help.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Barring a dark side nexus and/or rituals and assuming his opponent is on his guard and not on the precipice of internal conflict? No one high level.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Sidious, for example, mindfvcked Luke while on Byss and caught Starkiller in a moment of deep internal conflict (to kill or not to kill Vader). And he's at least a comparable telepath to Vitiate.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Likewise with UnuThul, who was able to telepathically influence an unprepared Luke at the beginning of the Dark Nest crisis but was woefully impotent by the time of the climax.

Nyax did a much better job then UnuThul by the way. And he doesn't compares to Vitiate either.

Also, recall Luke's experience on Dromund Kaas? Not very positive for a Force-user of his level.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Once again, the passage makes no reference to any exceptions. It simply says that none can stand before him without succumbing.

The fact that certain characters did disproves this contention. Now if the statement read "none can stand before him without succumbing unless he allows them" (which is again disproved by Revan's active resistance in the climax of his titular book, to say nothing of the resistance of the Hero of Tython, Kira Carsen, Tol Braga, and the lack of effect on Scourge and the Exile), I would understand your interpretation.

But the fact remains that the passage says none. And that's simply not the case.

To say nothing of the fact that Karpyshyn's own interpretation of Vitiate's powers imposes limitations on his powers. Anything to the contrary is a blatant no-limits fallacy and is undermined from sheer fact (the aforementioned examples of Vitiate's enslavement being broken), context (i.e. he's never simply snapped his fingers and enslaved anyone to my knowledge), and authorial commentary (Karpyshyn's words on the subject).

Words=?

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Neph,

Barring a dark side nexus and/or rituals and assuming his opponent is on his guard and not on the precipice of internal conflict? No one high level.

Sidious, for example, mindfvcked Luke while on Byss and caught Starkiller in a moment of deep internal conflict (to kill or not to kill Vader). And he's at least a comparable telepath to Vitiate.

Likewise with UnuThul, who was able to telepathically influence an unprepared Luke at the beginning of the Dark Nest crisis but was woefully impotent by the time of the climax.

That seems odd given the evidence. Do you truly believe that the quote saying that he can 'wither and ruin even the strongest Jedi's connection to the light side" is non-canon?

I'm really not seeing how Palpatine is comparable. Vitiate's telepathic abilities are held up as uniquely powerful, possessing of 'incalculable powers of corruption'. As a child of 10 he was able to defeat and mindrape his Sith Lord father and he has only gotten hugely more powerful since then. That counts as a fair fight without a ritual or nexus on hand surely. Scourge was in agony from a brush of his mind and he's turned dozens of jedi to fear, madness, and evil with his mental powers. Sidious just hasn't dominated anyone to the extent that Vitiate has.

Unuthul is no Vitiate. He was immensely powerful, but nothing suggests he was close to Vitiate as a telepath or in regards to his dominating abilities.

But ignoring Sidious and Luke, are they the extent of what you mean by 'high-level?'

Edit: Also, as Legend mentions, even though Revan and Malak were close to the darkside, it only took a fraction of his power for Vitiate to dominate them. I doubt it would make a difference were they not that close to falling.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Ample evidence exists which lends credence to my assertion in this case. You have no argument in response.

Here is a fact: Vitiate > Nihilus

Accept this and move on.

Nope. Your evidence is mere speculation. Vitate is more powerful now, sure, but that doesn't mean he can destroy worlds without a ritual. The closest thing you have presented is Revan and the Exile saying Vitiate may be able to do so. Not that he can.

Ultimately, I don't have to post arguments to the contrary as I don't have to prove a negative. The burden of proof is on you. And idle speculation from you and characters within the universe is not proof.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
🙄

Check the revelation by OP (Nephthys).

By the way, Vitiate is superior Sith Sorcerer then Zannah.

Sure. It says they died in a flash of light. Cool. Doesn't mean Sith Sorcery.

And, yes, I would agree that he is superior at sorcery than Zannah but that doesn't mean he can use or even has knowledge of the same attacks.

Originally posted by ares834
Nope. Your evidence is mere speculation. Vitate is more powerful now, sure, but that doesn't mean he can destroy worlds without a ritual. The closest thing you have presented is Revan and the Exile saying Vitiate may be able to do so. Not that he can.

Ultimately, I don't have to post arguments to the contrary as I don't have to prove a negative. The burden of proof is on you. And idle speculation from you and characters within the universe is not proof.

For the sake of argument, even if we consider ritual based possibility, then this time, quick and without aid of other participants.

Originally posted by ares834
Sure. It says they died in a flash of light. Cool. Doesn't mean Sith Sorcery.

Originally posted by ares834
And, yes, I would agree that he is superior at sorcery than Zannah but that doesn't mean he can use or even has knowledge of the same attacks.

Originally posted by samfreedman77
For someone who uses a lot of implicit statements in favor of Palpatine, you sure are trying to push this explicit statement against Vitiate.

Not sure why I should behave any differently than Vitiate fanboys. Like you said, we're all biased. If you can use implicit shit for Vitiate and their full conclusions, I can use 'em for Palpatine.

Originally posted by samfreedman77
Once again, there's no contradiction. It can implicitly be implied that any time Vitiate wanted to dominate you (other than Revan), he could.

There is contradiction because the passage simply says "none." It doesn't qualify or make exceptions. It's absolute. And it's absolutely been debunked.

Originally posted by samfreedman77
Words=?

WTF? Format fail.

PM Intrepid37 for a functioning link, he was the one who has the email.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
For the sake of argument, even if we consider ritual based possibility, then this time, quicker and without aid of other participants.

Perhaps.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
What kind of power do you think this is?

Could be anything really such as lightning or a visible burst of TK.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
You are contradicting yourself here. Superiority implies otherwise.

Not at all. Sith Sorcery is a vast field with many varied powers. Just because Vitiate is superior too her does not mean he is her superior in all aspects of Sorcery nor does it mean he has all of her knowledge.

Originally posted by ares834
Perhaps.

Originally posted by ares834
Could be anything really such as lightning or a visible burst of TK.

2. I am not aware of Telekinetic applications potent enough to knock out powerful Force-users in this manner.

------

I suspect a very advanced application based on Sever Force talent.

Originally posted by ares834
Not at all. Sith Sorcery is a vast field with many varied powers. Just because Vitiate is superior too her does not mean he is her superior in all aspects of Sorcery nor does it mean he has all of her knowledge.

Vitiate had much greater time at his disposal to study the secrets of the dark side then Zannah; Sith like Zannah served him. Nyriss was also a Sith Sorcerer and a very fine one, as per revelations in the novel.

The authors are not inclined to elaborate on Sith Sorcery based talents of every character they introduce to the mythos. They might say that "character A" is a damn fine Sith Sorcerer and we (fans) should keep an open mind.

Originally posted by ares834
Could be anything really such as lightning or a visible burst of TK.

Personally I think it would have to be an esoteric ability of some sort. If it were simply lightning or TK it would probably be more specific about that since they cause obvious damage and are quite distinctive. Since it just says they die in a flash of light my thought is that they just straight up die without any obvious give aways such a lightning burns or telekinetic bludgeoning.