Originally posted by The_Tempest
So the Exile died without succumbing... Meaning she didn't succumb... Meaning its still wrong?
Nope, since the quote is 'none can' not 'none have' or 'none ever will'. The Exile couldn't have stood in his presence without succumbing, but since she died so quickly, that became a non-factor.
Plus, you know, technically she did succumb.... in a manner of speaking. 😉
The potential opponents would succumb to mental influence of Vitiate when he wills it or wants to break them.
"These fragmented communiques showed the Emperor's Jedi pursuers descending into fear, madness, and evil when faced with his power." It quickly became clear the Sith Emperor was more then a brilliant military strategist and cunning political leader. He was a living embodiment of the dark side of the Force who delighted in destroying the minds and spirits of those Jedi who came too close to him. (SWTORE, Page 88)
The codex entry is also implying the same but it is written in more generalist sense.
It is a matter of common sense that nothing would happen to individuals around Vitiate unless the Sith Emperor wants to influence them with his telepathic abilities. And when he gets in to action, the opponents loose their effectiveness and typically end up broke.
Irregardless (lol), the fact is that multiple quotes support the idea of Vitiate being a being capable of shredding minds and corrupting nearly anyone not specifically prepared for him, as he has done to dozens of Jedi. The idea that he cannot do so in combat or that he requires a nexus is baseless and false. That he destroyed the minds of Jedi "who came too close to him" and that he did so when they "faced with his power." supports the idea that this occurred in combat and he did so with his own natural power.
He is, frankly, 'the most dominating Force-user the galaxy has ever seen.'
Originally posted by samfreedman77
Meaning that unless Vitiate is somewhat distracted or allows you to stand before him, you're going to succumb. Revan was a special case as he was prepared for it and Vitiate underestimated him.
The passage makes no room for exceptions, Revan or the Exile included. It says none... Not none "except for X." And because people HAVE stood before him without succumbing, it's clearly false.
Which makes sense, given that its otherwise a blatant no limits fallacy.
OK, Neph, we seem to be going around in circles here.
Let me just restate my contentions, a few new ones.
1. Palpatine's lightning > Vitiate's lightning
Like it or not, canon tells us that Palpatine = strongest sith lord as early as TPM. Granted, there are plenty of variations in potency in individual powersets, and "powerful" can have a wide variety of connotations (although the context agrees that it's in a combative setting), but given that Force lightning is Palpatine's signature Force attack, there needs to be some measure of evidence that Vitiate's uniquely above Sidious here...
...and all you've given is that he can overwhelm multiple comparatively weaker enemies with a lightning storm. OK, but can Sidious not stretch Yoda, the most "powerful foe the darkness had ever known", who had developed a counter to every dark side technique, to his limits? How do you determine which is more impressive? It seems like Sidious's performance vs. individuals is superior to Vitiate's.
And just FYI, I'm not very big on the "rule debates on authorial fiat" tactic, but there has to be some measure of clear and convincing evidence to overcome a plethora of explicit canon rulings.
2. Vitiate's lightning storm tactic will involve dispersing his energy over multiple targets. Even the weakest on the "B team" are extraordinarily powerful Jedi Masters. So given that there's nothing to suggest that his lightning > Palpatine's, the notion that he hold off Windu while killing everyone else is quite a weak one.
3. Windu's vaapad draws on Vitiate's own dark side energies, so the stronger you think Windu is, the stronger Windu himself grows.
4. Also, this entire argument is predicated on the assumption that the arrest squad is going to charge into the Emperor's room without any semblance of tactics or planning.
What if they whip out a powerful, portable laser cannon, and while, say, Agen Kolar is firing it at his majesty's ass, Windu swings in and chops his head off?
What if they use Force speed TPM style?
What if they spread out and prevent Vitiate from using the storm technique?
5. Since I'm making this list in no particular order...Vitiate had to charge up his lightning for a few moments to overwhelm Revan's defenses. Indeed, Revan even batted one of his initial bolts back at the Emperor. This suggests that your estimations as to how easily Vitiate can overcome the top dogs is too generous.
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Vitiate vs. The B team
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
He was performing these acts in laboratory setting. Care to prove otherwise?
Just flipped through the book and found some here:
"The enormity of the event had stunned Sidious into silence and overwhelmed and addled 11-4D’s processors, but Plagueis had carried on without assistance, again and again allowing Venamis to die and be returned to life, until the Bith’s organs had given out and Plagueis had finally granted him everlasting death."
"“Let me explain what is happening to you,” Plagueis said. “The cells that make up all living things contain within them organelles known as midi-chlorians. They are, in addition to being the basis for life, the elements that enable beings like me to perceive and use the Force. As the result of a lifetime of study, I have learned how to manipulate midi-chlorians, and I have instructed the limited number you possess to return to their source. In plain Basic, Veruna, I am killing you.”
Veruna’s face was losing color, and his breathing had slowed. “Bring_…_me back. I can still be_…_of service_…_to you_…”"
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
1. Who controlled the power unleashed from that ritual?
2. What happened to other life forms which got caught in within the sphere of this power?
3. What became of Medriaas in the aftermath?
Ok? You agreed with what I said yes? He has only shown the ability to destroy a planet with the help of hundreds of Sith Lords and a massive ritual. Vitiate is no Nihilus.
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Lord Scourge's reveals the Emperor's true goal for the war: to complete a Sith ritual that will grant him unlimited power and immortality by eradicating all life in the galaxy. (SWTORE, Page 93)During the story of JK, the Sith Emperor eventually commences his ultimate ritual of galactic scope with aid of his minions; his objective is to eradicate all life in the galaxy and reduce it to a void much like Nathema; during this situation, he would complete his final transformation in to an unstoppable juggernaut of the Force. It is during this this moment, when HoT and his allies strike at him before it is too late.
Yeah, not bad. But once again pretty much irrelevant to the fight at hand just like Plageuis and Palatine unbalancing the force.
OP (The_Tempest) have misunderstood the intended message of the codex entry, it seems.
Is English is really his first language?
Instead of nitpicking within the information, it is important to read the entire passage and understand its underlying message.
It is apparent from such revelations that potential adversaries succumb to Vitiate's mental influence when he assaults them with his telepathic powers.
No further room for argument exists in this regard.
Probably the truly top-tiers could. Luke, Sidious, Yoda etc.
I do think he'd mindrape Windu though, as he has no mental resistance feats at all.
I dunno, the idea seems to be that no-one can resist it without Revan's technique and experience. Other than my quote though, I'm not sure where that idea comes from though.
The passage makes no room for exceptions, Revan or the Exile included. It says none... Not none "except for X." And because people HAVE stood before him without succumbing, it's clearly false.Which makes sense, given that its otherwise a blatant no limits fallacy.
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Vitiate vs. The B team
Originally posted by ares834
Just flipped through the book and found some here:"The enormity of the event had stunned Sidious into silence and overwhelmed and addled 11-4D’s processors, but Plagueis had carried on without assistance, again and again allowing Venamis to die and be returned to life, until the Bith’s organs had given out and Plagueis had finally granted him everlasting death."
"“Let me explain what is happening to you,” Plagueis said. “The cells that make up all living things contain within them organelles known as midi-chlorians. They are, in addition to being the basis for life, the elements that enable beings like me to perceive and use the Force. As the result of a lifetime of study, I have learned how to manipulate midi-chlorians, and I have instructed the limited number you possess to return to their source. In plain Basic, Veruna, I am killing you.”
Veruna’s face was losing color, and his breathing had slowed. “Bring_…_me back. I can still be_…_of service_…_to you_…”"
This reveals that he eventually acquired some level of affinity with unnatural ways of the Force. However, Vitiate's accomplishment is much superior in comparison.
Originally posted by ares834
Ok? You agreed with what I said yes? He has only shown the ability to destroy a planet with the help of hundreds of Sith Lords and a massive ritual. Vitiate is no Nihilus.
Try to comprehend the underlying message in the following revelation:-
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
The power unleashed was of such a scale that it resulted in the creation of largest dark side nexus the galaxy (would ever see) and so potent that it absorbed every life form along with the Force itself in its path.After the first major transformation, Vitiate was arguably capable of pulling off comparable feat single-handedly:-
"Nathema was just the beginning," Scourge agreed. "He will destroy world after world, his power and madness growing in concert until he alone is left, Emperor over an empty and lifeless galaxy."
Meetra stared at the two in horror.
"You've been to Nathema," Scourge said. "You felt the Void. You know what the Emperor is capable of."
"She understands," Revan said, reading her expression more accurately than Scourge. "That’s not it."
"He's quarantined Dromund Kaas," Meetra said, trying to lead them to the same conclusion. "What if he’s preparing to do the same thing here that he did on Nathema?"
Scourge hadn't considered that possibility, and it chilled him to his core.
"Is that possible?" he asked. "Nyriss told me the ritual on Nathema took days, if not weeks. And the Emperor had to trick hundreds of other powerful Sith into working with him so he could draw on their power."
"He's stronger now," Revan said. "But even if it's possible, I don't think he'll go that far. At least not yet. He is too patient, too careful. Dromund Kaas is the heart of his Empire and the seat of his power. He has too many valuable resources here to throw it all away." (SWTOR: Revan)
Revan is correct:-
Lord Vitiate takes command of the Sith Empire, now in shambles following the Great Hyperspace War. He executes the Sith Council and consumes the life force of thousands of Sith Lords in a terrifying ritual that extends his life and vastly increases his capacity as a practitioner of the Force. (SWTORE, Page 16)
Vitiate was capable of matching or exceeding Nihilus in every aspect. In-fact, Nihilus was a slave to his own power; in contrast, Vitiate had absolute control over his power.
Originally posted by ares834
Yeah, not bad. But once again pretty much irrelevant to the fight at hand just like Plageuis and Palatine unbalancing the force.