Vitiate vs. The B team

Originally posted by Nephthys

Nephthys I Am Not Sure I Understand But You Consider Me A Good Friend & A Good User Who Is Right On Starwars & That I Am Cool Right Buddy & Im Not A Ultra Noob Right.

Nephthys, I will destroy your pathetic, cringe worthy pile of useless shit when I'm done doing other stuff.

Gosh, I'm so popular today.

Originally posted by Mental Master Han
Nephthys, I will destroy your pathetic, cringe worthy pile of useless shit when I'm done doing other stuff.

Mental Master Han Back Off.

His lightning isn't strong enough to contort a lightsaber blade despite being on an immensely strong nexus vs lightsiders

Neither was Sidious'.

Nephthys You Never Did Respond To My Question.

I don't see any questions.

Vitiate wins.

Originally posted by Banjo Broski
Nephthys I Am Not Sure I Understand But You Consider Me A Good Friend & A Good User Who Is Right On Starwars & That I Am Cool Right Buddy & Im Not A Ultra Noob Right.

I don't understand you either...

Originally posted by pencilcrayon
His lightning isn't strong enough to contort a lightsaber blade despite being on an immensely strong nexus vs lightsiders

"Palpatine still made no move to defend himself from Skywalker; instead he ramped up the lightning bursting from his hands, bending the fountain of Mace's blade back toward the Korun Master's face.
...
Mace's blade bent so close to his face that he was choking on ozone."

The idea there was that his wrist was being forced to allow the blade to approach his face; presuming that the light saber blade containment field actually contorted would clash with the film (G canon) and this invalidate the novel. We didn't see a spaghetti noodle lightsaber so you must be mistaken in your interpretation of the reading.

^ Exactly. 👆

His blade doesn't bend in the movie. However, as I've argued his blade wasn't forced back towards his face in the movie either. He was in fact forcing his blade forward to the point that he was leaning over Sidious.

Originally posted by Zampanó
The idea there was that his wrist was being forced to allow the blade to approach his face; presuming that the light saber blade containment field actually contorted would clash with the film (G canon) and this invalidate the novel. We didn't see a spaghetti noodle lightsaber so you must be mistaken in your interpretation of the reading.

Originally posted by Nephthys
So?

So, Vitiate's own dark side energies simply make Mace Windu stronger...

He defeated them 'with ease'. Which indicates that he doesn't need to unleash his full power against them to defeat them. The fact that he allows Braga to move forward by itself indicates that he was holding back.

Um, he defeats them 'with ease' relatively rapidly. There's nothing to prove that he did so while holding back, instead of going all out, with that being why he defeats them with ease. Do you get what I mean?

Oh well, they have to fight through them anyway.

Right, which reduces Mace Windu's fighting capacity by 5%, and decreases his saving throw modifier by 1...

And the darkside energies are coming from the ceiling. Force Lightning is still a physical attack and needs to be reflected in a physical manner.

Exactly. Vaapad was pushed to its limit by Sidious. Therefore Vitiates more powerful lightning will push it past its limit.

OK, a few problems here.

1. You're still assuming that Vitiate's lightning > Sidious's.
2. I may have misspoken; it may have been Sidious's overall DS powers that push Vaapad to its limits, in which case Windu will still be able to match Vitiate's power.
3. Even if Vitiate can somehow overcome Windu's vaapad, he's still going to have X% (Sidious's power) of Vitiate's lightning, in addition to his own strength in the Force.
4. Evenly matched Force users typically cannot overpower the other's lightsaber defenses with lightning in a prepared confrontation, given that Palpatine only stalemated/lost to a bare handed Yoda.

So your contention is essentially that Vitiate will be able to kill the B team while holding off Windu with a Force "storm" (even though the concentration of his lightning will be lesser by an order of magnitude), and then have the energy to overwhelm a vaapad-boosted Windu with a more concentrated burst.

I just don't see this happening. Vitiate's lightning would have to be enormously more powerful to hold back Windu while being dispersed over a distance of several square meters.

Not really? Just a bit more should do it.

No, because Vitiate has to kill off Windu and the B team using two successive attack, and Windu was defeating Sidious's lightning and turning it back on his face.

Notice that Sidious is more drained after the attack than Windu.

So, Vitiate's own dark side energies simply make Mace Windu stronger...

What now? Which "dark side energies"? The ones that would mentally incapacitate Windu? The miniature force storm he can create that will blast Windu? So many options.

Originally posted by Master Han
So, Vitiate's own dark side energies simply make Mace Windu stronger...

Indeed.

.....????

Originally posted by Master Han
Um, he defeats them 'with ease' relatively rapidly. There's nothing to prove that he did so while holding back, instead of going all out, with that being [b]why he defeats them with ease. Do you get what I mean?[/b]

I get what you mean. I guess my point is that he defeated them so easily that he still could have defeated them even if he was holding back. So his power would naturally be in great excess of what it takes to overpower those 5 highly powerful Jedi. Therefore if he concentrates all of his power on Windu and friends, he should still be able to defeat them even if he can't do it with ease. Even if they were all twice as powerful as the Strike Team, he'd still be able to defeat them.

If we look at it in terms of numbers:

Vitiate is a 10.

The Strike Team was made up of 1's. Even with all of them together, Vitiate is still twice as powerful as them as them and can overpower them.

So even if Windu was a 5 by himself (which he isn't), he and his team still would be below Vitiate.

Also my point was that Vitiate allowed Tol Braga and co to resist his power momentarily and move forward before beating them. Considering he can beat them so easily, this indicates that he was holding back, or else Braga would not be able to do that.

Originally posted by Master Han
Right, which reduces Mace Windu's fighting capacity by 5%, and decreases his saving throw modifier by 1...

Which makes them tired and possibly wounded.

Originally posted by Master Han
OK, a few problems here.

1. You're still assuming that Vitiate's lightning > Sidious's.
2. I may have misspoken; it may have been Sidious's overall DS powers that push Vaapad to its limits, in which case Windu will still be able to match Vitiate's power.
3. Even if Vitiate can somehow overcome Windu's vaapad, he's still going to have X% (Sidious's power) of Vitiate's lightning, in addition to his own strength in the Force.
4. Evenly matched Force users typically cannot overpower the other's lightsaber defenses with lightning in a prepared confrontation, given that Palpatine only stalemated/lost to a bare handed Yoda.

So your contention is essentially that Vitiate will be able to kill the B team while holding off Windu with a Force "storm" (even though the concentration of his lightning will be lesser by an order of magnitude), and then have the energy to overwhelm a vaapad-boosted Windu with a more concentrated burst.

I just don't see this happening. Vitiate's lightning would have to be enormously more powerful to hold back Windu while being dispersed over a distance of several square meters.

1. I'm not assuming anything, simply going by what I'm confident I've already proven.
2. It wasn't. It was his lightning.
3. I don't even know what you're talking about here. But while we're on the subject, remember that Vitiate can also draw on Revan's power.
4. Except Palpatine pushed Windu to his limit. Plus Windu and Vitiate are not evenly matched. Windu can only compete because of Vaapad, which will be pushed passed its limits.

No, it just needs to be potent enough to make Windu stop his charge. Even if it isn't, Vitiate can still push him back with Force lightning while continuing the Lightning Storm, as he did against the Hero of Tython.

Originally posted by Master Han
No, because Vitiate has to kill off Windu [b]and the B team using two successive attack, and Windu was defeating Sidious's lightning and turning it back on his face.

Notice that Sidious is more drained after the attack than Windu. [/B]

And again, thats achievable with only being slightly better than Sidious in regards to lightning.

Originally posted by Nephthys
I get what you mean. I guess my point is that he defeated them so easily that he still could have defeated them even if he was holding back. So his power would naturally be in great excess of what it takes to overpower those 5 highly powerful Jedi. Therefore if he concentrates all of his power on Windu and friends, he should still be able to defeat them even if he can't do it with ease. Even if they were all twice as powerful as the Strike Team, he'd still be able to defeat them.

If we look at it in terms of numbers:

Vitiate is a 10.

The Strike Team was made up of 1's. Even with all of them together, Vitiate is still twice as powerful as them as them and can overpower them.

So even if Windu was a 5 by himself (which he isn't), he and his team still would be below Vitiate.

Why would Windu be a 5, when he can draw on Vitiate's own dark side energy?

Would he not be equal to Vitiate?

And if Vitiate > Sidious, would he not be at least equal to Sidious, since that's as far as his vaapad will boost him?

Do you think Vitiate is twice as powerful as Sidious now? Because that's how your math will have to work out.

Again, your argument rests on Vitiate's being vastly more powerful than Palpatine.

Also my point was that Vitiate allowed Tol Braga and co to resist his power momentarily and move forward before beating them. Considering he can beat them so easily, this indicates that he was holding back, or else Braga would not be able to do that.

How do you know he was holding back?

Defeat with ease =/= holding back. The Patriots crushed the Titans in that one ridiculous snow bowl victory the year in '09, but they certainly weren't holding back.

1. I'm not assuming anything, simply going by what I'm confident I've already proven.
2. It wasn't. It was his lightning.
3. I don't even know what you're talking about here. But while we're on the subject, remember that Vitiate can also draw on Revan's power.
4. Except Palpatine pushed Windu to his limit. Plus Windu and Vitiate are not evenly matched. Windu can only compete because of Vaapad, which will be pushed passed its limits.

No, it just needs to be potent enough to make Windu stop his charge. Even if it isn't, Vitiate can still push him back with Force lightning while continuing the Lightning Storm, as he did against the Hero of Tython.

And again, thats achievable with only being slightly better than Sidious in regards to lightning.

No, it's not, because Vitiate is dispersing his lightning across several square meters, assuming that the Jedi act like morons and clump closely together, whilst Sidious blasted Windu with all his might at point blank range.

Originally posted by Master Han
Why would Windu be a 5, when he can draw on Vitiate's own dark side energy?

Would he not be equal to Vitiate?

And if Vitiate > Sidious, would he not be at least equal to Sidious, since that's as far as his vaapad will boost him?

Do you think Vitiate is twice as powerful as Sidious now? Because that's how your math will have to work out.

Again, your argument rests on Vitiate's being [b]vastly more powerful than Palpatine.[/b]

I meant in respect to their own powers.

But okay, whatever, but the others are still only measly 1's who Vitiate will crush easily. Then he will overpower Windu.

Originally posted by Master Han
How do you know he was holding back?

Defeat with ease =/= holding back. The Patriots crushed the Titans in that one ridiculous snow bowl victory the year in '09, but they certainly weren't holding back.

Because of what I just said. I don't know he was holding back, I'm deducing it and arguing that it was the case.

Originally posted by Master Han
No, it's not, because Vitiate is dispersing his lightning across several square meters, assuming that the Jedi act like morons and clump closely together, whilst Sidious blasted Windu with all his might at point blank range.

So what? Even if he disperses his power into an AoE, its still enough to down the rest of the B team like it was the Strike Team. And then he will focus on Windu.

@Master Han

The greatest advantage of Vitiate is that he is the most formidable Sith Sorcerer in the mythos. Sith Sorcery is a pathway to unlock most dangerous dark side abilities/powers.

Vitiate can unleash dark side energies in their purest form (Sith Sorcery based talent) and it is at this point when his powers become impossible to handle.

When Zannah unleashed dark side energies in their purest form (via her Sith Sorcery based talent), Darth Bane had no answer for such an attack. In contrast, Vitiate is a daddy of Zannah.

Do the math.