Vitiate vs. The B team

Its possible. It just isn't 'very' possible, its highly implausible and ridiculous. Theres no reason to believe that his telepathy only works while on a nexus either. Its a possibility. But theres nothing to suggest it and reasons to doubt it. It specifically says 'none can stand in his presence without succumbing to fear, anger and hatred.' This should logically apply in all situations, if he was on Korriban or the moon.

Neither am I. I'm merely providing the quotes. And I'm only saying that he do so 'successfully and in a combat scenario while not on a dark side nexus'.

Some examples:-

Lord Dramath intended to judge the child’s power to determine if he was worthy of serving the Sith Lord, or if he should simply be executed. But Tenebrae had no intention of serving—or of dying. When they met face-to-face, Tenebrae proved the stronger. Only ten years old, he stripped his father of his power and his mind. (SWTOR: Revan)

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Over 300 years ago, the great Jedi heroes Revan and Malak stumbled upon long-hidden Sith Empire's capital of Dromund Kaas, and its ruler - a mysterious, almost godlike avatar of the dark side. They argued briefly over whether to alert the Republic and Jedi Council, but Revan was already too consumed by arrogance and anger to consider the possibility of defeat. By the time Revan and Malak approached the Emperor in his throne room, they were already at the precipice of the dark side. It took only a fraction of the Emperor's loathsome power to complete their fall. The Jedi succumbed utterly to the Sith leader's domination and returned to the Republic to spark a new conflict: the Jedi Civil War. (SWTORE, Page 89)

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The Jedi dispatched scouts and spies to learn as much as they could about this new enemy and its enigmatic leader. However, the Sith Emperor was a master of subterfuge and misdirection, continually thwarting all efforts to uncover his dark secrets.

Most Jedi who ventured into Imperial space vanished without a trace, but a few managed to send back disturbing messages to their Masters. These fragmented communiques showed the Emperor's Jedi pursuers descending into fear, madness, and evil when faced with his power. It quickly became clear the Sith Emperor was more then a brilliant military strategist and cunning political leader. He was a living embodiment of the dark side of the Force who delighted in destroying the minds and spirits of those Jedi who came too close to him. (SWTORE, Page 88)

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The plan to invade the Emperor's fortress succeeds beyond Master Braga's greatest ambitions. However, the Jedi find more than they bargained for when they finally confront the Sith leader in his lair. The Emperor is more than a man - he is the living embodiment of the dark side. Armed with incalculable powers of corruption, the Emperor easily defeats the Knight, Master Braga, and their fellow Jedi, twisting them all to the dark side. (SWTORE, Page 92)

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It is obvious from these revelations that Sith Emperor can mentally disturb and even break his opponents with his telepathic abilities, regardless of the setting.

Yeeesssssssss! excellent

Are any of those not on a dark side nexus/sith world though?

Killing his father and stripping him of his power and his mind wasn't on one, it was on Nathema.

Also on his space station.

Originally posted by Master Han
Greater than Plagieus? Greater than Palpatine?

Sith Sorcery is a pathway to unlock greatest of the dark side abilities; it is a pathway to accomplish the impossible.

Plagueis wished to gain expertise in this field but he couldn't acquire ancient sources to assist him in this regard.

Sidious also realized that to achieve incredible power, he have to delve in the field of Sith Sorcery. His DE incarnation is actually representative of his Sith Sorcery based talents. He acquired access to important ancient sources to hone his talents in the dark side. He first began to unleash Sith Sorcery during The Clone Wars to negatively influence the Jedi Order with the dark side.

Originally posted by Master Han
You're insinuating that the Sith Emperor has sith sorcery that cannot be defended against (ignoring the fact that Zannah had the bonus of a DS nexus, and it was stated that she could not have used it on Bane otherwise).

Originally posted by Master Han
Yet obviously his sorcery did not work on the Hero of Tython.

So prove it would work on Windu.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
What kind of logic is this?

Sith Sorcery is a pathway to unlock greatest of the dark side abilities; it is a field to accomplish the impossible.

Plagueis wished to gain expertise in this field but he couldn't acquire ancient sources to assist him in this regard.

Yes. Plagueis, without any natural talent in sorcery and with extremely minimal background knowledge or text to support him, rediscovered a vast set of powers, and how to manipulate midicholorians.

Sidious also realized that to achieve incredible power, he have to delve in the field of Sith Sorcery. His DE incarnation is actually representative of his Sith Sorcery based talents. He acquired access to important ancient sources to hone his talents in the dark side. He began to unleash Sith Sorcery during The Clone Wars to negatively influence the Jedi Order with the dark side.

In the nutshell, Sith Sorcery is the field which leads to great power in the dark side.

So then justify your insinuation that the Sith Emperor is more powerful than I-can-destroy-fleets Palpatine and I-can-manipulate-life Plagueis in sith sorcery.

That is Zannah's limitation. Sith Emperor is on a whole new level in comparison to her. Try to understand the difference.

SW legend, I'm tiring your insistence on using vague and flowery prose to justify mathematical and concrete comparisons between entities.

Most notably, you assume that, because Zannah + DS nexus can overwhelm Bane's defenses, a baseline Sith Emperor can do the same to a Mace Windu that overpowered Palpatine's lightning at point blank range.

Your justification? Vague prose and adjectives describing Vitiate as "very powerful".

Sith Emperor was involved in a Galaxy-busting act of Sith Sorcery during this moment. Therefore, he wasn't in the condition to fight effectively during this time and HoT (along with his allies) took advantage of this situation. Thanks to betrayal of Scourge, HoT knew when to strike.

Ah, so please explain why you so commonly seem to use the HoT's defeating Vitiate feat to justify his/her allegedly amazing combat skillz. I suppose I could use the same to put the Jedi Exile above Obi Wan, because she kills Nihilus, right?

Also, much of the details of this encounter is unknown.

Oh, the irony... 🙄

Originally posted by Master Han
They are more powerful if you include Windu. Why are you leaving out Mace?

No, they aren't. I'm leaving him out because we're talking about Vitiate owning everyone except Windu.

Originally posted by Master Han
That...doesn't make any sense. He easily overpowers them, but that doesn't mean Braga wasn't able to advance. "Easily" doesn't mean "instantly and without any modicum of resistance".

Yeah it does. If he can easily defeat him and others then how does it make sense that despite Vitiate going all out in your opinion, Braga can still resist and advance through his attack?

Originally posted by Master Han
But he has to do so while simultaneously holding back Windu.

Why is it so damn hard for you to imagine him doing that? He just needs to keep Windu at bay for a few seconds while he owns his companions. With his feats I am seriously struggling to comprehend why that is so confusing a concept for you to grasp.

Originally posted by Master Han
The lightning storm will be dispersed across several enemies, compared to Palpatine's blasting him at point blank range.

That doesn't mean he can run through it like its a day at the beach.

Originally posted by Master Han
Yes. Plagueis, without any natural talent in sorcery and with extremely minimal background knowledge or text to support him, rediscovered a vast set of powers, and how to manipulate midicholorians.

2. Plagueis managed to manipulate midi-chlorians with aid of scientific tools. Vitiate accomplished similar objective with his Sith Sorcery based talents, if you haven't realized this yet. This is why Plagueis wanted to learn about Sith Sorcery but he was lacking in options.

Originally posted by Master Han
So then justify your insinuation that the Sith Emperor is more powerful than I-can-destroy-fleets Palpatine and I-can-manipulate-life Plagueis in sith sorcery.

Originally posted by Master Han
SW legend, I'm tiring your insistence on using vague and flowery prose to justify mathematical and concrete comparisons between entities.

Most notably, you assume that, because Zannah + DS nexus can overwhelm Bane's defenses, a baseline Sith Emperor can do the same to a Mace Windu that overpowered Palpatine's lightning at point blank range.

Your justification? Vague prose and adjectives describing Vitiate as "very powerful".

Originally posted by Master Han
Ah, so please explain why you so commonly seem to use the HoT's defeating Vitiate feat to justify his/her allegedly amazing combat skillz. I suppose I could use the same to put the Jedi Exile above Obi Wan, because she kills Nihilus, right?

Originally posted by Master Han
Oh, the irony... 🙄

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
1. Can you make a list of these vast set of powers for me?

2. He managed to manipulate midi-chlorians with aid of scientific tools.

😂

I'm assuming you didn't read the book then. Because Plagueis was manipulating midi-chlorians without the "aid of scientific tools" throughout the book.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
However, "I can consume whole worlds" Vitiate have comparable accolades.

With the help of hundreds of other Sith Lords and a big fancy ritual.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Sidious was learning about Sith Sorcery during the time of his encounter with a Jedi Strike Team led by Windu. He didn't possessed talents on par with those of Vitiate during this time. Therefore, your comparison is moot.

Proof? Sidious successfully performed rituals on a Galactic level. Not to mention he and Plagueis unbalanced the force itself through the use of a ritual.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Its possible. It just isn't 'very' possible, its highly implausible and ridiculous. Theres no reason to believe that his telepathy only works while on a nexus either. Its a possibility. But theres nothing to suggest it and reasons to doubt it. It specifically says 'none can stand in his presence without succumbing to fear, anger and hatred.' This should logically apply in all situations, if he was on Korriban or the moon.

Neither am I. I'm merely providing the quotes. And I'm only saying that he do so 'successfully and in a combat scenario while not on a dark side nexus'.

Except we see people stand in his presence without succumbing. Revan, the Exile, Scourge, etc. The statement is clearly invalid, especially in light of the fact that it's a fallible in universe source.

The fact that Vitiate fights Braga's strike team at all indicates limitations on your otherwise implicit no limits fallacy.

Revan did succumb (the man in TOR is not the Jedi he once was), the Exile died and as a Sith Scourge was already full of fear, anger and hatred.

Really? Revan was just fine when he fought Vitiate as was Scourge and the Exile.
Clearly the passage is non canon.

Originally posted by Nephthys
No, they aren't. I'm leaving him out because we're talking about Vitiate owning everyone except Windu.

No, we're talking about Vitiate owning everyone and holding Windu back.

And you're also assuming that Vitiate can overwhelm Windu even 1 vs. 1, given that Windu was pushing Sidious's lightning back on his face, and given that your "vitiate's lightning is teh best!" argument is backed on nothing more than conjecture.

Yeah it does. If he can easily defeat him and others then how does it make sense that despite Vitiate going all out in your opinion, Braga can still resist and advance through his attack?

Because being able to advance for a few seconds =/= the attacker not winning with ease?

Anakin pwns Dooku with ease post "in teh zone", but the latter still lasts for a good, what...15 seconds? Yet nobody would deny calling it a curbstomp; indeed, Matthew Stover goes to quite eloquent lengths to describe it as such.

Why is it so damn hard for you to imagine him doing that? He just needs to keep Windu at bay for a few seconds while he owns his companions. With his feats I am seriously struggling to comprehend why that is so confusing a concept for you to grasp.

That doesn't mean he can run through it like its a day at the beach.

Funny strawman aside, we know that Mace Windu with vaapad > Palpatine's lightning, at point blank range, concentrated solely on him.

Now, you're suggesting that lightning dispersed over several targets, and over several square meters of space, can hold Mace Windu back for the time it takes Vitiate to take out the others, and then for him to have enough energy to take out Windu with his supposedly stronger lightning.

And you think this only requires Vitiate's lightning to be "slightly" more powerful?

If Force energy scales by area, or by some logical form of conservation, then Mace Windu will encounter significantly less resistance with the initial barrage. Like, an order of magnitude less.

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Oh, and since your "Vitiate > RotS Sidious in lightning" claim seems to be based solely on the former's attack having "more impressive" showings, feel free to establish that the members of the strike team aside from Braga can match up with the other members of the B teams, all described by Windu to be some of the greatest swordsmen the Order had ever produced.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Really? Revan was just fine when he fought Vitiate as was Scourge and the Exile.
Clearly the passage is non canon.

If you really want to get pushy, then recall that they were taught how to resist Vitiates powers by Revan, who knew about it from succumbing before.

And yet the passage makes no note of exceptions. Clearly it is non canon.

I've already told you that none have, so no it isn't. Scourge is a Sith, the Exile died too quickly to register and Revan did succumb.

So the Exile died without succumbing... Meaning she didn't succumb... Meaning its still wrong?

Originally posted by ares834
😂

I'm assuming you didn't read the book then. Because Plagueis was manipulating midi-chlorians without the "aid of scientific tools" throughout the book.

Originally posted by ares834
With the help of hundreds of other Sith Lords and a big fancy ritual.

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The power unleashed was of such a scale that it resulted in the creation of largest dark side nexus the galaxy (would ever see) and so potent that it absorbed every life form along with the Force itself in its path.

After the first major transformation, Vitiate was arguably capable of pulling off comparable feat single-handedly:-

"Nathema was just the beginning," Scourge agreed. "He will destroy world after world, his power and madness growing in concert until he alone is left, Emperor over an empty and lifeless galaxy."

Meetra stared at the two in horror.

"You've been to Nathema," Scourge said. "You felt the Void. You know what the Emperor is capable of."

"She understands," Revan said, reading her expression more accurately than Scourge. "That’s not it."

"He's quarantined Dromund Kaas," Meetra said, trying to lead them to the same conclusion. "What if he’s preparing to do the same thing here that he did on Nathema?"

Scourge hadn’t considered that possibility, and it chilled him to his core.

"Is that possible?" he asked. "Nyriss told me the ritual on Nathema took days, if not weeks. And the Emperor had to trick hundreds of other powerful Sith into working with him so he could draw on their power."

"He's stronger now," Revan said. "But even if it's possible, I don't think he'll go that far. At least not yet. He is too patient, too careful. Dromund Kaas is the heart of his Empire and the seat of his power. He has too many valuable resources here to throw it all away." (SWTOR: Revan)

Revan is correct:-

Lord Vitiate takes command of the Sith Empire, now in shambles following the Great Hyperspace War. He executes the Sith Council and consumes the life force of thousands of Sith Lords in a terrifying ritual that extends his life and vastly increases his capacity as a practitioner of the Force. (SWTORE, Page 16)

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Even in natural form, Vitiate was "supremely strong in the dark side." After his first major transformation, he became the "most dominating Force-user the galaxy has ever seen."

More hints given below:-

Originally posted by ares834
Proof? Sidious was performing rituals on a Galactic level. Not to mention he and Plagueis unbalanced the force itself through the use of a ritual.

Lord Scourge's reveals the Emperor's true goal for the war: to complete a Sith ritual that will grant him unlimited power and immortality by eradicating all life in the galaxy. (SWTORE, Page 93)

During the story of JK, the Sith Emperor eventually commences his ultimate ritual of galactic scope with aid of his minions; his objective is to eradicate all life in the galaxy and reduce it to a void much like Nathema; during this situation, he would complete his final transformation in to an unstoppable juggernaut of the Force. It is during this this moment, when HoT and his allies strike at him before it is too late.

Except we see people stand in his presence without succumbing. Revan, the Exile, Scourge, etc. The statement is clearly invalid, especially in light of the fact that it's a fallible in universe source.

The fact that Vitiate fights Braga's strike team at all indicates limitations on your otherwise implicit no limits fallacy.