Neph, it sounds like your drawing conclusions from nothing honestly. Nowhere do we see that Kreia didn't want to fight the Exile, on top of you saying that she just, "wanted to kill her" which would involve a fight. Now if you are going to fight somebody since you can't just murder them, are you going to tell them there are ways to block your best technique?
And the point remains that at the time she said it, Kreia didn't know of the Exile's immunity to it. She thought there would be some way for her to survive it, but there is no indication of anything resembling knowledge of safety.
Originally posted by Pwned
Neph, it sounds like your drawing conclusions from nothing honestly. Nowhere do we see that Kreia didn't want to fight the Exile, on top of you saying that she just, "wanted to kill her" which would involve a fight. Now if you are going to fight somebody since you can't just murder them, are you going to tell them there are ways to block your best technique?And the point remains that at the time she said it, Kreia didn't know of the Exile's immunity to it. She thought there would be some way for her to survive it, but there is no indication of anything resembling knowledge of safety.
Oh but she did want to fight her. On Malachor. Her plan wouldn't work anywhere else. And she only lured the Exile to Malachor after she'd already had the Exile fight Nihilus. If she just wanted to kill the Exile she would have done it on Dantooine when the Exile is helpless. And if she only wanted to kill the Exile on Malachor then she would have just taken her there when the Exile was unconscious. Instead she lets her live and lures her to Telos so she can kill Nihilus.
You see, Kreia is very specific in manipulating events to occur in a specific order. It's from this that we can see her intentions. After she kills the Masters she goes to Atris and has the Exile follow her while tipping Nihilus off to go there, which forces the Exile to fight him. She does this because she isn't actually a omnicidal maniac and wants to stop him from om noming the universe, as she tells you. If this were not the case then she would have gone straight to Malachor. It's only after defeating Nihilus that the Exile is free to go to Malachor and fight her.
Since Kreia is so specific at manipulating the order of events then theres no need for her to lie about the technique. Hell, if she was going to lie then she would have told the Exile that there is a way to block it so the Exile would be more inclined to face Nihilus.
I've tried to explain it above as best as I can. If you still don't understand then I don't care enough to continue to try to educate you.
Bullshit is that a safe assumption. There must be knowledge of the technique since Satale learned it. Where would she learn it unless it was known to the Jedi Order? And where would Revan learn it? Kreia has access to all the places that Revan studied at.
False. Plo Koon and Obi-Wan have shown proficiently with Tutaminis. Also Rahm Kota was a master of it as well.
Originally posted by NephthysI don't see why that would make her more likely to say there is a way to defend against it. Like I said earlier, I agree she may have suspected that the Exile had a way to survive the attack, but she did not know that.
Oh but she did want to fight her. On Malachor. Her plan wouldn't work anywhere else. And she only lured the Exile to Malachor after she'd already had the Exile fight Nihilus. If she just wanted to kill the Exile she would have done it on Dantooine when the Exile is helpless. And if she only wanted to kill the Exile on Malachor then she would have just taken her there when the Exile was unconscious. Instead she lets her live and lures her to Telos so she can kill Nihilus.You see, Kreia is very specific in manipulating events to occur in a specific order. It's from this that we can see her intentions. After she kills the Masters she goes to Atris and has the Exile follow her while tipping Nihilus off to go there, which forces the Exile to fight him. She does this because she isn't actually a omnicidal maniac and wants to stop him from om noming the universe, as she tells you. If this were not the case then she would have gone straight to Malachor. It's only after defeating Nihilus that the Exile is free to go to Malachor and fight her.
Since Kreia is so specific at manipulating the order of events then theres no need for her to lie about the technique. Hell, if she was going to lie then she would have told the Exile that there is a way to block it so the Exile would be more inclined to face Nihilus.
I've tried to explain it above as best as I can. If you still don't understand then I don't care enough to continue to try to educate you.
There is also not a need to educate me. I r smurt eenuff tew no dees sduf awn mai owhn D:<
Originally posted by Ascendancy
Regardless of any of these wemen'z powers, they fall at three. Unless this uber drain is capable of killing three prepared Sith Lords at once when one is enhanced by orbelisks and another has arcane sorcery including pure darkside energy that is unblockable then it's game over.
They probably can handle that, actually.
Nomi's wall of light is effectively 'Jedi sorcery' that can collectively use the power of a group.
They're all prepared and force-meditated by someone who sits in safety.
And there's 4 of them to those 3 Sith Lords.
The combination of numbers of meditation really gives them an edge.
The Uber drain is not the only overwhelming power on the quarter's side.
Originally posted by Nephthys
The Force is life energy, remember? That's why when you click on the Jedi Masters is says that they're 'Worse than dead. They are absences in the Force.' Also recall that the description of what the Exile and Nihilus does refers to them draining 'life energy' to regain/strengthen their connection to the ForceNo it looks the same, except that its purple for some reason. Also, gameplay animations. 😬
I am not denying that what DS Exile and Nihlus do are the exact same thing, I am denying that the same mechanics (it being unblockable and cannot be taught) cannot be applied to the drain that Kreia and the Sith Assassins use.
Unless they were being controlled by her somehow not to question her. No, but that's impossible. The Jedi Masters do say that they see the death of the Force in the Exile just as much as they do in Nihilus, as does Kreia.
You missed my point. My point is what the Exile and Nihlus do are different from Kreia in one way or another mechanic wise.
Deal with it.
The only problem is that I'm not too sure if Force Bonds lose their potency over large distances. mmm
On Droumond Kaas it is likely that the Dark Side clouded the Exile's connections to them. It is likely her force sight/ connection was clouded by the Emperor's shoud.
Well he certainly didn't learn it after his mind-wipe. Revan was barely trained in Kotor, and we don't see him learn an advanced technique such as Tutaminis and after Kotor his relationship to the Jedi Order was broken and he lived with Bastila on Coruscant.
Bullshit is that a safe assumption. There must be knowledge of the technique since Satale learned it. Where would she learn it unless it was known to the Jedi Order? And where would Revan learn it? Kreia has access to all the places that Revan studied at.
Knowledge does not ~ Someone with the skill/ power/ mastery of the force to use it. Considering even in the 'Golden Age of the Jedi' we only see one supremely competent user of the technique it is not farfetched that Satele was the only one of her age as well.
Her words have not been proven fallacious yet.
And there is still no evidence for that. Plus, they are the same technique.
False. Plo Koon and Obi-Wan have shown proficiently with Tutaminis. Also Rahm Kota was a master of it as well.
Probably because Force Drain is perfectly blockable by a standard Force shield.
We've already dealt with this. No need to rehash arguments.
The only thing you have saying that Kriea's drain is unblockable is Kreia a dubious source.
Thanks. I hope you're reading this Arheal.
No probs
As I said the word is probably just a fancy way of saying it. This isn't an anime, Force Users don't need to call out their attacks. As for it looking different, its just artistic differences. The same way that Force Drain is represented as red lightning in some material and a orange laser in Kotor.
Actually as I recall it we can see it destroying a building in one panel.
TOR is awesome imo. Revan was not.
Already dealt with all of this.
Theres no way to prove that she wasn't boosted by it.
No there's no way to prove she was boosted by it. And given that you are on the affirmative that is your job. It is not up to me to prove a negative. Concession accepted. 💃
Originally posted by Q99
They probably can handle that, actually.Nomi's wall of light is effectively 'Jedi sorcery' that can collectively use the power of a group.
They're all prepared and force-meditated by someone who sits in safety.
And there's 4 of them to those 3 Sith Lords.
The combination of numbers of meditation really gives them an edge.
The Uber drain is not the only overwhelming power on the quarter's side.
Again, Zannah and Bane managed a 4 v 2 battle with foes, three of whom were Jedi Masters, aided by Battle Meditation with Zannah not even at peak ability. If both she and Bane are at full strength and knowledge and aided by Malak at peak plus boosting by the Star Forge then I'd say they are capable of surviving a 4 v 3 encounter.
Originally posted by Pwned
I don't see why that would make her more likely to say there is a way to defend against it. Like I said earlier, I agree she may have suspected that the Exile had a way to survive the attack, but she did not know that.In fact, this kind of spiraled out of the original point somehow. I brought up that I believe Tutamnis can defend against the Giga Drain that they use on a small group of people. (Not the planet destroying one) So all of this is irrelevant to the argument anyways.
There is also not a need to educate me. I r smurt eenuff tew no dees sduf awn mai owhn D:<
Well you clearly do, as you're unable to understand why Kreia wanting to have the Exile fight Nihilus would mean that she'd be less inclined to tell the Exile that theres no way to beat him.
It doesn't matter whether she knew or merely suspected. She isn't planning on fighting the Exile until after she'd fought Nihilus, as I've shown. And after fighting Nihilus they would both know whether she was immune or not.
And that's a completely unfounded belief with nothing to support it, so I rightly just ignored it.
Exactly... That's actually why Kreia valued the Exile so much. Because she believed that within her, was the opportunity to destroy the Force.
That's exactly why she wanted her to face Nihilus first. If Nihilus wasn't stopped, not only the Force, the entire galaxy would've been reduced to ashes eventually. That she didn't want. She knew the Exile was a wound in the Force and that Nihilus would not be able to drain her. Or at least, she thought so, and that's exactly why she wanted her to face him. And she was right.
Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
I am not denying that what DS Exile and Nihlus do are the exact same thing, I am denying that the same mechanics (it being unblockable and cannot be taught) cannot be applied to the drain that Kreia and the Sith Assassins use.
'The sect of assassins that chase you feed on the Force... what he does is simply the pinnacle of what they could achieve, in time. And that is why they - and their techniques - must be wiped out.' - The Sith Assassins use the same technique as Nihilus. But I'm sure that just because the Exile, Nihilus and the Sith Assassin's all use the same technique that it doesn't mean that Kreia does as well, right. 😉
Recall that Kreia was refering to Nihilus stripping her of her own power when she said that the technique couldn't be blocked. Nihilus didn't use the technique to its full planet-sized might on her, did he? He did it subtly over time.
And you're point is entirely without merit. Kreia's words are 'There are techniques within the Force against which there is no defense.' She does not say 'There are techniques that when you reach a certain level they become impossible to block', she says 'techniques' period. As in the techniques she's talking about in their entirety have no defense.
You have absolutely no evidence that its only Nihilus' technique that can't be blocked. None.
At this point, I am merely humoring you. 😐
Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
You missed my point. My point is what the Exile and Nihlus do are different from Kreia in one way or another mechanic wise.
And you somehow managed not to quote the part where I discussed the trifling matter of the orange laser.
Basically you're just flat out wrong on the mechanics being different. We know that after Kreia killed the Master's their bodies were completely drained off the Force. Now watch this conversation on the Sith assassins and Nihilus:
RLoWb8KXvVo&feature
5.42 onwards.
Or you can read me spell it out for you:
"The sect of assassins that chase you feed on the Force... what he does is simply the pinnacle of what they could achieve, in time. And that is why they - and their techniques - must be wiped out. No one again must experience and learn what her master did."
"How are they able to drain the Force?'
" As much as one may use the Force to bolster the wills and strengths of others, the reverse is possible, though not often used. Instead of sending one's will through connections in the Force, instead such connections are drawn upon, fed upon, and drained completely."
"But all life is touched by the Force."
"Then you understand how terrible such a power is. And why it must be ended.It is an empty road to the dark side, and by traveling it, the price is death before one's time."
TL;DR, They drain the Force, and they drain it completely. AKA:
Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Concession accepted. 💃
As I have demonstrated, your logic is faulty. Therefore the fallacy doesn't exist.
Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
On Droumond Kaas it is likely that the Dark Side clouded the Exile's connections to them. It is likely her force sight/ connection was clouded by the Emperor's shoud.
This seems very fanwanky.
Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Revan was trained for a few weeks. And it doesn't matter as even with his little training, Revan was still likely the most powerful Jedi in the order; defeating Star Forge empowered Malak even with his 'limited training'.
And do you really think Revan just stopped training and then when rusty as shit went off to fight the most powerful force user up to that date?
Being powerful doesn't make him well trained.
No, I think he started to recover his memories including those to do with his Force Mastery.
Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Knowledge does not ~ Someone with the skill/ power/ mastery of the force to use it. Considering even in the 'Golden Age of the Jedi' we only see one supremely competent user of the technique it is not farfetched that Satele was the only one of her age as well.
Pfft, so? The study of tutaminis was taught during the very first classes at Jedi academies, as per The Jedi Path: A Manual for Students of the Force. It's not as if it was some uber rare technique. Yeah its harder to do with powerful techniques or against lightsabers, but its bullshit to think that not one of the Jedi Masters on Katarr knew how to do it.
And I notice that you all but admitted that Kreia would have knowledge of the technique.
Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Bullshit they haven't. The woman is a liar, her bloodly name is Traya, for treachery. Not a single statement of hers can be taken with absolute certainty.
As I have proven, it is entirely illogical and against her best interests to be lying about this.
Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Different mechanics. Even if they were the same technique the operate differently.
You've been entirely impotent at proving that they operate differently.
Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
When have Plo Koon, Obi-Wan, or Rahm Kota absorbed the lighting of anyone of note? Also could someone post the quote of Kota absorbing Apprentice Galen's lightning.
It says that Kota could do it in his database entry in the Force Unleashed as I recall. I'm not too sure about Plo Koon, but Obi-Wan did it in the RotS video game.
Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
And what proof do you have that Giga Drain can bypass the force shielding of a sufficiently powerful force user?
Are you suggesting that Kreia isn't knowledgeable of a Force Shield?
Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
The only thing you have saying that Kriea's drain is unblockable is Kreia a dubious source.
And the absence of anything at all suggesting that it can be blocked.
Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
They are similar enough. And the word, unless proven otherwise is not a fancy way of saying it. He speaks and all hell breaks loose across the planet.
He doesn't speak when he attempt to drain the Exile.
Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Even more proof.
If you say so. 😐
Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
I agree it is awesome I am an active subscriber, but that does not change the fact that the Revan's story is pretty crappy, Malgus' role could have been made larger, and the Voice of the Emperor could have been made better. I also think that Act I of the JK and the JC should have been switched. It's ridiculous that the JK has a companion who is a Child of the Emperor, and yet the JC is the one tracking them down.
Gotta agree with you there. It should have been the Jedi Knight who was focused on all things to do with the Emperor and the Jedi Consular who was running around trying to stop a war and save dudes, dealing with the rest of the Sith.
Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
No there's no way to prove she was boosted by it. And given that you are on the affirmative that is your job. It is not up to me to prove a negative. Concession accepted. 💃
Well almost your entire argument is that 'she wasn't boosted when she used it'. Which is a stupid argument since you don't know if she was or not. In the end it's impossible to prove one way or the other.
Originally posted by Ascendancy
Again, Zannah and Bane managed a 4 v 2 battle with foes, three of whom were Jedi Masters, aided by Battle Meditation with Zannah not even at peak ability. If both she and Bane are at full strength and knowledge and aided by Malak at peak plus boosting by the Star Forge then I'd say they are capable of surviving a 4 v 3 encounter.
Yes, but those Jedi were not near as strong as these 4.
Not a single one of those Jedi were on the level of Nomi, and two of them were weak enough that their partners regularly had to cover for them- one of them was a newbie who was more hinderance than help.
Of the four, you had one blastmaster who had little in the way of force defense, one who was strong in the force but had weak bladework, one dead weight, and only one who took on a Sith one-on-one and held their own at any point.
A lot different than Nomi, Kreia, Shan, Exile, who are all four complete packages and fight some of the most powerful Sith of their time solo (except for Kreia, of course, but she has her force drain thingy).
Originally posted by Nephthys Well you clearly do, as you're unable to understand why Kreia wanting to have the Exile fight Nihilus would mean that she'd be less inclined to tell the Exile that theres no way to beat him.Or, y'know, specific statements of blocking any harmful techniques beats the word of a liar who uses such a technique.It doesn't matter whether she knew or merely suspected. She isn't planning on fighting the Exile until after she'd fought Nihilus, as I've shown. And after fighting Nihilus they would both know whether she was immune or not.
And that's a completely unfounded belief with nothing to support it, so I rightly just ignored it. [/B]
Really, your saying, "Nu uh" at this point, as you have not proven that Kreia was telling the truth.
Kreia also had plans that would eliminate Nihilus' ship, as we can draw the probably correct conclusion that he can not survive in a vacuum. Meaning even if the Exile went down, Nihilus would die. Kreia would then attempt to create another Wound. And probably fail.
I don't see where you get Kreia's plans from anyways. I doubt they have been spelled out, and Kreia herself wouldn't tell you.
Originally posted by Q99
Yes, but those Jedi were not near as strong as these 4.Not a single one of those Jedi were on the level of Nomi, and two of them were weak enough that their partners regularly had to cover for them- one of them was a newbie who was more hinderance than help.
Of the four, you had one blastmaster who had little in the way of force defense, one who was strong in the force but had weak bladework, one dead weight, and only one who took on a Sith one-on-one and held their own at any point.
A lot different than Nomi, Kreia, Shan, Exile, who are all four complete packages and fight some of the most powerful Sith of their time solo (except for Kreia, of course, but she has her force drain thingy).
I'm happy to change my opinion about the battle if you discuss why the women would overwhelm. Simply noting that they were strong and are now amplified by BM is not enough. Cite abilities. Sidious took down two of the three best Jedi duelists before they knew what hit them, so simply outnumbering a Sith or Jedi does not guarantee victory.
As to the Wall of Light, Nomi led THOUSANDS of jedi in using it. It's clearly not a power that a single Jedi can use against a Lord because it requires possessing enough power to contain and immobilize the Sith as well. Even simply using it agains Kun's spirit took multiple Jedi when he reappeared. It also requires immense concentration, meaning that likely all four will be focused on utilizing it. That would be fine if that didn't leave two other Sith Lords free to do as they please. It also doesn't mean that the Jedi have the prowess to overcome Zannah's sorcery simply because they have some of their own, especially when Zannah can unleash her's with alacrity to say the least.
Johun was the only sandbagger. Farfalla was noted for the battles he was in, with Raskta and Sarro being proficient with sabers to say the least.
Yea, but you still had one sandbagger, and Farfalla, while noted for some battle skills, still wasn't the level of any of these four.
That battle force had quite significantly less power than this bunch.
As to the Wall of Light, Nomi led THOUSANDS of jedi in using it. It's clearly not a power that a single Jedi can use against a Lord because it requires possessing enough power to contain and immobilize the Sith as well.
She did that against Exar Kun with all of his stuff and thousands of warriors to draw on. But she also didn't need thousands of Jedi to use it to severe force on Qel-Droma, a very powerful Sith lord.
And it is a wall, it's not necessarily a single-target affair.
Sidious took down two of the three best Jedi duelists before they knew what hit them, so simply outnumbering a Sith or Jedi does not guarantee victory.
Two of the best of the time, but by 'of the time' we're talking, maybe in the top 20 of the order. Only Fisto was top 10.
These four are all extremely powerful who were some of the very best of their time. Nomi was the strongest Jedi of her era without much doubt, and is remembered as one of the strongest of all time thousands of years later. Satele Shan is the Grand Master who fights with rather powerful Sith, and the Exile of course beat Sion, Nihilus, and Kreia, something I don't think even Fisto could come close to doing, let alone those other two.
And of course there's Kreia herself, who has the hard-to-defend against force drain and has fought against masters 3-on-1 and won, but she's not even the main threat here. She'll be, like, force-draining her opponents while they've got uber Jedi in their faces.
Originally posted by NephthysYou know what I meant. Some techniques have been stated by reliable sources to be unblockable. Sadly, Kreia is not that reliable due to her homicidal plans. Personally, I would be fine if it were unblockable. It would be of the 1% that is, and considering how exactly 2 people could actually use the technique, and its the only thing that really keeps them contending for a high spot. Nihilus has great TK, but there has been better.
'Any' harmful technique? 😬