Originally posted by NephthysThis isn't a ****ing forum fight. There is no divide between sabers and all-out. They were in a lightsaber duel. You are saying they were on par in the lightsaber duel. If that were true, that would be Sidious wavering in his superiority. End of story.
This board is about Sabers only.
What I said was there was "a clear level of parity" in the last Saber fight, Not in the all out. Not at all. That doesn't contradict that quote which wasn't even referring to the final Maul vs Sidious.
The quote for that fight is something like "Maul just couldn't defeat Sidious power."
But personally from what the fight showed I think there was a level of parity in the whole Saber fight, apart from the Sidious vs Opress one on one.
Maul definitely proved himself to be up there as a Saber duelist.
Originally posted by Nephthys
There was no parity. How many times is Tempest going to have to point out that Sidious 'never wavered from his position of superiority' before you guys get that?
What do you mean 'you guys'? 😒
I've never said anything about Maul being on par at any moment against Sidious. Damn it, Neph.
Originally posted by Nephthys
Sidious can fly. 🙂But if Savage was able to get a hit in legitimately then that would be Sidious' superiority wavering.
This is a pretty amusing debate btw. You're trying to argue that Sidious was always superior while still arguing that Maul and Savage pressed him at times. Hilarious.
Not when you distinguish between:
1) Sabers
2) Force
3) All-Out
I think Maul and Savage together pressed Sidious in 1. Mainly due to Maul. Opress was just an add-on. But Sidious still had so much superiority in 2 it was just ridiculous.
All the quotes from Filoni and the website refer to 3.
1. Luke (Super-genius in the Force and in lightsaber combat, prodigious mastery of the lightsaber, instant learning and mimicry of lightsaber and Force forms, total recollection of everything pertaining to lightsaber combat, unrivaled perceptiveness of an opponent's form, able to use shatterpoint to best it, etc etc)
2. Sidious (A master of every weapon and every style, able to outsmart pretty much anyone, absolutely prestine technical skill, able to kill in a moment and set up all kinds of mistakes to do so)
3. Kas'im (Decades of honed skill, a master of every weapon and every style)
4. Mace Windu (Creator and only master of Vapaad PLUS Shatterpoint)
5. Count Dooku (Technical precision surpassing Kas'im and rivaling Sidious)
6. Grevious (His immense skill allowed him to keep pace with Force users despite having zero ability to use the Force)
7. Tulak Hord (The best in a competitive age of talented lightsaber duelists the likes of which wasn't seen again until height of the Jedi Order)
Disregard my previous post. The most impresive duelists shouldn't be ordered, instead you should read why I list them, as the art of lightsaber combat is a little broader than most people would understand, you must determine for yourself what is more impressive.
Luke (Super-genius in the Force and in lightsaber combat, prodigious mastery of the lightsaber, instant learning and mimicry of lightsaber and Force forms, total recollection of everything pertaining to lightsaber combat, unrivaled perceptiveness of an opponent's form, able to use shatterpoint to best it, etc etc)
Sidious (A master of every weapon and every style, able to outsmart pretty much anyone, absolutely prestine technical skill, able to kill in a moment and set up all kinds of mistakes to do so)
Kas'im (Decades of honed skill, a master of every weapon and every style)
Mace Windu (Creator and only master of Vapaad PLUS Shatterpoint)
Count Dooku (Technical precision surpassing Kas'im and rivaling Sidious)
Starkiller Clone (His mastery of telekinetic lightsaber combat is unholy. The only other person to use telekinetic lightsaber combat was Kreia, and her's was nothing next to the Starkiller Clone)
Grevious (His immense skill allowed him to keep pace with Force users despite having zero ability to use the Force)
Tulak Hord (The best in a competitive age of talented lightsaber duelists the likes of which wasn't seen again until height of the Jedi Order)
Yoda (Able to utilize his power in the Force to orchestrate sequences of the Ataru Form so advanced that he not only completely compensates for his lack of size and reach and advaced age, but also allows him an advantage as a blur nearly impossible to hit even for the likes of Dooku)
Starkiller (Able to utilize powerful Force techniques to enhance his abilities in conjuction with lightsaber combat to such that he is wrecking ball to pretty much anyone or anything that opposses him, wrecking Sith and Jedi that surpass him by leagues, and even overcoming Sidious when unharmed for a brief moment)
Darth Maul (Killer instinct, just born better than his brother Savage Opress, his ultimate skill is in his unconventionality, the way he combines a peerless martial arts mastery with Juyo and the unfamiliar double-bladed lightsaber)
Darth Vader (As a human he was extremely powerful both physically and in the Force, and had mastered form V to ferocious effect, almost in a more devestating conjuction with Ataru before losing all of his mobility and much of his strength in the Force on Mustafar. Despite being weighed down, unbalanced, and lacking a range of normal vision - he miraculously adapted to be even more formidable than ever before, evidenced by his battles with Galen Marek and Luke Skywalker...what he did in every single lightsaber duel with another well trained Force sensitive required tremendous patience, refinery, willpower, percptiveness, and improvisation the likes of which no one on this list matches except perhaps his son, Luke Skywalker himself.)
Easy. We compare their feats and the context of those feats. Dooku has never slaughtered saber masters as effortlessly as Sidious has, nor has he shown anything to suggest that he could.
Comparing Dooku to Sidious based solely on his performance against Yoda is a very bad way to compare them. During his fight with Dooku on Geonosis, Yoda was not so willing to kill Dooku. Between this and the way Yoda restrained himself in their force duel, it's very reasonable to conclude that he also restrained himself in the saber fight. To what extent Yoda was holding back is hard to tell, but the fact is, Yoda did not try his hardest with Dooku. If he had, he wouldn't have restrained himself from using the force, so there is no reason to believe that he suddenly decided to try his hardest to take Dooku out in sabers. Taking all this into consideration, crossing blades with Yoda for 30 seconds does not make Dooku an equal saber duelist to Sidious. He might rival Sidious in technical skill, but Sidious is considerably faster and stronger than Dooku.
Re: Re: Best saber duelists
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenDTulak Hord is the greatest lightsaber master to have ever lived, he single-handedly killed over 1,500 jedi 2,000 soldiers with a lightsaber alone, while his servent and fellow sith warrior Khem Val fed on what was left of the fallen jedis Force energy, provided that he single-handedly conquered 100 worlds for his sith empire, being undefeated for as long as he lived and for as long as he reined as a Dark Lord Of The Sith.
Kao Cen Darach's blade-work is also amazing. He was able use a double-bladed lightsaber in conjunction with a normal lightsaber with great skill in a duel.Tulak Hord is a legendary duelist from ancient times. But nothing suggests that he was the greatest ever.
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Easy. We compare their feats and the context of those feats. Dooku has never slaughtered saber masters as effortlessly as Sidious has, nor has he shown anything to suggest that he could.Comparing Dooku to Sidious based solely on his performance against Yoda is a very bad way to compare them. During his fight with Dooku on Geonosis, Yoda was not so willing to kill Dooku. Between this and the way Yoda restrained himself in their force duel, it's very reasonable to conclude that he also restrained himself in the saber fight. To what extent Yoda was holding back is hard to tell, but the fact is, Yoda did not try his hardest with Dooku. If he had, he wouldn't have restrained himself from using the force, so there is no reason to believe that he suddenly decided to try his hardest to take Dooku out in sabers. Taking all this into consideration, crossing blades with Yoda for 30 seconds does not make Dooku an equal saber duelist to Sidious. He might rival Sidious in technical skill, but Sidious is considerably faster and stronger than Dooku.
Dude, that's wayyy too much thinking and it has NO basis.
We determine it as such, Dooku was force to retreat from Yoda, and was forced to retreat from Sidious. Sidious is to Yoda as Yoda is to Dooku more or less. Republic troops showed up after the duel on Geonosis, and in Coruscant Clone Troopers arrived after the duel between Sidious and Yoda, that is however a non-factor dispite past debates. Yoda did not know Clones were coming and Dooku did not know Padme was coming. Sidious' victory, or Yoda's victory, are also non-factors when the Force is put into consideration, and lightsaber skills are made less important as they augment even duelists.
Re: Re: Re: Best saber duelists
Originally posted by Star Wars Logic
Tulak Hord is the greatest lightsaber master to have ever lived, he single-handedly killed over 1,500 jedi 2,000 soldiers with a lightsaber alone, while his servent and fellow sith warrior Khem Val fed on what was left of the fallen jedis Force energy, provided that he single-handedly conquered 100 worlds for his sith empire, being undefeated for as long as he lived and for as long as he reined as a Dark Lord Of The Sith.
Can you post something official showing this? The last we discussed him the fact that all records of him are inconsistent lean to his actual ability never being confirmed. Kreia says one thing, the other blurbs say that sabers likely weren't even in the hands of the Sith at the time of his existence.
Just wanting some concrete canon on him.
Re: Re: Re: Re: Best saber duelists
Originally posted by Ascendancyif you need official showing just go to googel in put tulak hord and it will show a post of official showing about tulak hord you should see starwars.wikia.com/wiki/TulakHord
Can you post something official showing this? The last we discussed him the fact that all records of him are inconsistent lean to his actual ability never being confirmed. Kreia says one thing, the other blurbs say that sabers likely weren't even in the hands of the Sith at the time of his existence.Just wanting some concrete canon on him.
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Best saber duelists
Originally posted by TsunamicTadpole
if you need official showing just go to googel in put tulak hord and it will show a post of official showing about tulak hord you should see starwars.wikia.com/wiki/TulakHord
That was one of the postings I was discussing in which it is disputed:
"There was some disagreement as to when precisely Tulak Hord lived. Kreia seems to imply he was an ancient Dark Lord from the first Sith Empire, yet she also calls him a lightsaber master, and some sources imply that the Sith did not use such weapons until they re-established contact with the Jedi and the Republic after the Great Hyperspace War.
Updated continuity information from The New Essential Chronology has now refined Hord's historical lifespan—he lived at some point after the Hundred-Year Darkness and Dark Jedi exile from the Galactic Republic (around 6,900 BBY), until an undefined time prior to the Great Hyperspace War (c. 5,000 BBY). This suggests that Kreia's remark about Tulak Hord being a lightsaber master could well be incorrect.<in responce to this (in actuality the sith invented modern lightsabers first. the jedi invented an impractical form of lightsabers sometime before 15500 BBY, the sith retained the technology and were successful in making it practical at an unspecified time after the 100 year darkness. the jedi acquired it later in the hyperspace wars. there is an article located on this sight titled:Lightsabers for those who are interested in more detailed information on the subject. "