Wonder Woman vs Captain Marvel (Shazam)

Originally posted by -Pr-
I could, like I said, easily say the same about his punch through the atmosphere, though. Superman was still conscious, still physically able, so I don't see how Diana beat him, tbh.

Besides, if we started deciding fights that way, guys with Healing Factors wouldn't have half of the wins they have.

But if there'd been 30 seconds of more beating in there, when he was already getting significant damage in a fair fight, then his situation would've been quite a bit worse. It would've required a huge lucky break to turn things around, something hard to get against a foe of her skill.

Also, on the Healing Factor thing- if there's a fight between Logan and Creed, and it ends with Logan having his throat and guts torn out and Creed walks away, then that's a Creed win.

If it continues, there's every sign the lead's going to expand before Logan gets a chance to recover.

Heck, didn't Logan pretty much count Creed's yearly beatings as losses for that exact reason?

Even with a healing factor, one side can have a sizable edge.

Originally posted by Delta1938

Except, Wonder Woman was only revived because of re-entry heat,

Yes, she was revived by getting warm. And impact wouldn't have revived her if that hadn't? Or just a few more seconds? If you're out deep, warmth does not wake you up.

and Superman didn't even know the tiara was coming. If he had, he could've easily dodged it or deflected it with his breath. And the fact that he had all that shock from being unaware of the circumstances causes huge issues when trying to apply this for Wonder Woman in a typical debate scenario.

Uh, she threw it head-on while he was looking at her. He might not have expected her to do that attack since it looked like she was paying attention to Max, but catching an opponent off-guard with a sudden attack is part of battle.

Also, I'll note he dodged a lasso throw earlier, so it's not like he was ignoring the weapons. There was nothing preventing defense there except surprise.

DTM
Lord knows Ive had my share of Superman vs. Wonder Woman debates with Q, and in the end we just didnt see eye to eye (but Ive always respect him, and valued his opinions on this and all such matters). Ive seen Too Many instances where Superman proved to be Wonder Womans superior, she herself even admitting she cant reliably beat him in a fight, where her best showing was the throat slitting tiara throw, and even that Id not call a WW win (as Supes was beating the crud out of her before that, and that fight could have easily gone either way).

Likewise.
---

The way I phrase it is, they'll fight in a stalemate that'll degrade into Clark's favor based on his stats, unless one of them makes a mistake.

That time? It was Clark that made a mistake, and Diana won.

Another time? It could be Diana that makes a mistake, and Clark wins.

Or it could be neither, and again Clark wins.

So yea, he has the advantage. It's still impressive as heck to be able to roll the dice and have a chance to win, even if it is unreliable.

(And while Superman did some major damage before that point, so did Diana! Smashed his ears, hurt his ribs enough to get him to lay down for a bit and hold them in pain when he got up, etc.. It's not like it was a one-sided fight)

And finally, I'll make an additional note: Wonder Woman got a weapons upgrade after that fight. Magic lightning from her bracers. That's a tool that'd make things even dicier for Clark, and is of more minor benefit against Billy.

Originally posted by cdtm
I don't know, to me the fact Superman didn't let his powers go to his head and maintained a certain level of caution in each fight is proof enough he's smarter than the average...

For all the flack early era Guy Gardner got, he's pretty much what you're most likely to get when you give a noob god like power.

If you were suddenly given immense power, but didn't know the limits, wouldn't you be cautious?

As for Guy, he's egotistical and a bit delusional. You're talking about the same dude who wanted to prove who's boss to Batman, AFTER taking his Power Ring off.

Originally posted by Q99
But if there'd been 30 seconds of more beating in there, when he was already getting significant damage in a fair fight, then his situation would've been quite a bit worse. It would've required a huge lucky break to turn things around, something hard to get against a foe of her skill.

Also, on the Healing Factor thing- if there's a fight between Logan and Creed, and it ends with Logan having his throat and guts torn out and Creed walks away, then that's a Creed win.

If it continues, there's every sign the lead's going to expand before Logan gets a chance to recover.

Heck, didn't Logan pretty much count Creed's yearly beatings as losses for that exact reason?

Even with a healing factor, one side can have a sizable edge.

Yes, she was revived by getting warm. And impact wouldn't have revived her if that hadn't? Or just a few more seconds? If you're out deep, warmth does not wake you up.

Uh, she threw it head-on while he was looking at her. He might not have expected her to do that attack since it looked like she was paying attention to Max, but catching an opponent off-guard with a sudden attack is part of battle.

Also, I'll note he dodged a lasso throw earlier, so it's not like he was ignoring the weapons. There was nothing preventing defense there except surprise.

Likewise.
---

The way I phrase it is, they'll fight in a stalemate that'll degrade into Clark's favor based on his stats, unless one of them makes a mistake.

That time? It was Clark that made a mistake, and Diana won.

Another time? It could be Diana that makes a mistake, and Clark wins.

Or it could be neither, and again Clark wins.

So yea, he has the advantage. It's still impressive as heck to be able to roll the dice and have a chance to win, even if it is unreliable.

(And while Superman did some major damage before that point, so did Diana! Smashed his ears, hurt his ribs enough to get him to lay down for a bit and hold them in pain when he got up, etc.. It's not like it was a one-sided fight)

And finally, I'll make an additional note: Wonder Woman got a weapons upgrade after that fight. Magic lightning from her bracers. That's a tool that'd make things even dicier for Clark, and is of more minor benefit against Billy.

Superman wasn't incapacitated, though, which is my point. He was holding his throat with one hand. That left freeze breath, heat vision and even his other hand free to engage her if need be.

And it still goes back to my original point where Diana didn't even seem to think she'd beaten him, hence her killing Maxwell Lord.

Originally posted by -Pr-
So those panels where Superman is tanking Darkseid's eyebeams never happened, did they? 😛

😮 Never happened.

😛

Originally posted by -Pr-
Superman wasn't incapacitated, though, which is my point. He was holding his throat with one hand. That left freeze breath, heat vision and even his other hand free to engage her if need be.

And it still goes back to my original point where Diana didn't even seem to think she'd beaten him, hence her killing Maxwell Lord.

Agree 100%, as if Wonder Woman had beaten Superman with that throat slit, she wouldnt have then needed to turn her attention to Lord to kill him so that Supermans hold would be dropped. If that was a winning blow, she would simply have lassoed Lord up and ended this situation, but Superman wasnt out, he was delayed at best, so WW did the only thing she could do to stop Superman, that was kill Maxwell Lord. (and this is pretty much the best showing Ive ever seen WW have against Supes).

Originally posted by -Pr-
Superman wasn't incapacitated, though, which is my point. He was holding his throat with one hand. That left freeze breath, heat vision and even his other hand free to engage her if need be.

Actually, at first it was two hands, it only went to one hand after the neck-snap and he'd had 25 seconds to heal.

And if she knocks that hand away? Suddenly he's losing blood and is going to be in danger of passing out.

And he was in shock from the attack to begin with, leaving him open to an immediate follow-up.

And she'd already defended against HV and freeze breath, this time they were in close range so HtH is more likely, and last time they were in HtH, 45 seconds before, she dealt more blows than he did when he had two arms.

And it still goes back to my original point where Diana didn't even seem to think she'd beaten him, hence her killing Maxwell Lord.

One of the main point, that was a significant part of the story, was sooner or later it'd restart unless Diana killed Superman or killed Lord or got killed, and simply beating him was pointless as long as Lord was alive.

That it was made clear that a normal victory was pointless doesn't mean the fight wasn't won by conventional standards. A boxer coming back for a rematch doesn't mean they didn't lose the first fight.

The very point was it was "Kill Max or Superman, or it's round 1 of however many rounds it takes for WW to die." Could be next round, could be the third one, but the result was inevitable.

Originally posted by DTM
Agree 100%, as if Wonder Woman had beaten Superman with that throat slit, she wouldnt have then needed to turn her attention to Lord to kill him so that Supermans hold would be dropped. If that was a winning blow, she would simply have lassoed Lord up and ended this situation, but Superman wasnt out, he was delayed at best, so WW did the only thing she could do to stop Superman, that was kill Maxwell Lord. (and this is pretty much the best showing Ive ever seen WW have against Supes).

Did both of you miss the part where Superman wasn't under control while Lord was lassoed once WW made him break it? (one of the lasso's powers)

Superman was in no danger of springing up and continuing the fight that minute.

The point was that the fight would resume eventually since the conditioning wouldn't go away while Lord lived, but she was in no danger right then and there.

Also-

If that was a winning blow, she would simply have lassoed Lord up and ended this situation,

That is exactly what she did.

(and this is pretty much the best showing Ive ever seen WW have against Supes).

Well, yes, I think "stand there while the opponent's busy trying to keep his throat from bleeding out" is hard to top 😉

(Just kidding around- anyway, yea, she's got some stalemates, but I don't think anyone will disagree that Sacrifice is the best result she's gotten)

Originally posted by Q99
Yes, she was revived by getting warm. And impact wouldn't have revived her if that hadn't? Or just a few more seconds? If you're out deep, warmth does not wake you up.

"THE HEAT OF REENTRY BRINGS ME BACK..."

It flat-out says that the heat woke her back-up. And "reentry heat" is a lot more than "warmth." And the impact? Might have woken her up, might've hurt her more. People can be knocked back into consciousness, but it's not always the case. If it were, then we'd have a lot less KOs in any striking-based combat sport.

Originally posted by Q99
Uh, she threw it head-on while he was looking at her. He might not have expected her to do that attack since it looked like she was paying attention to Max, but catching an opponent off-guard with a sudden attack is part of battle.

Yeah, and he thought he was fighting Doomsday. Who doesn't throw tiaras that can decapitate demigods. Fail.

Originally posted by Q99
Also, I'll note he dodged a lasso throw earlier, so it's not like he was ignoring the weapons. There was nothing preventing defense there except surprise.

That was BEFORE Diana had wrapped Max in the lasso. When he dodged the lasso, she states "What's Max making him see now?" A bit of a difference when Max's tied-up and focused on her with her hand on his throat

Originally posted by Q99

(And while Superman did some major damage before that point, so did Diana! Smashed his ears, hurt his ribs enough to get him to lay down for a bit and hold them in pain when he got up, etc.. It's not like it was a one-sided fight)

hahahahahah You do NOT want to bring-up her bashing his ears in. She sneaks-up on him, and bashes two very vulnerable areas with her BRACELETS and she still can't knock him out? That shows how inferior she is to him. That'd be like you sneaking-up behind someone and bashing them in the ears with 2 cast iron skillets and failing to KO him.

Originally posted by Q99
And finally, I'll make an additional note: Wonder Woman got a weapons upgrade after that fight. Magic lightning from her bracers. That's a tool that'd make things even dicier for Clark, and is of more minor benefit against Billy.

I haven't seen anything to convince me her lightning would make a significant difference with what Superman's endured before.

Originally posted by Q99
But if there'd been 30 seconds of more beating in there, when he was already getting significant damage in a fair fight, then his situation would've been quite a bit worse. It would've required a huge lucky break to turn things around, something hard to get against a foe of her skill.

Also, on the Healing Factor thing- if there's a fight between Logan and Creed, and it ends with Logan having his throat and guts torn out and Creed walks away, then that's a Creed win.

If it continues, there's every sign the lead's going to expand before Logan gets a chance to recover.

Heck, didn't Logan pretty much count Creed's yearly beatings as losses for that exact reason?

Even with a healing factor, one side can have a sizable edge.

Yes, she was revived by getting warm. And impact wouldn't have revived her if that hadn't? Or just a few more seconds? If you're out deep, warmth does not wake you up.

Uh, she threw it head-on while he was looking at her. He might not have expected her to do that attack since it looked like she was paying attention to Max, but catching an opponent off-guard with a sudden attack is part of battle.

Also, I'll note he dodged a lasso throw earlier, so it's not like he was ignoring the weapons. There was nothing preventing defense there except surprise.

Likewise.
---

The way I phrase it is, they'll fight in a stalemate that'll degrade into Clark's favor based on his stats, unless one of them makes a mistake.

That time? It was Clark that made a mistake, and Diana won.

Another time? It could be Diana that makes a mistake, and Clark wins.

Or it could be neither, and again Clark wins.

So yea, he has the advantage. It's still impressive as heck to be able to roll the dice and have a chance to win, even if it is unreliable.

(And while Superman did some major damage before that point, so did Diana! Smashed his ears, hurt his ribs enough to get him to lay down for a bit and hold them in pain when he got up, etc.. It's not like it was a one-sided fight)

And finally, I'll make an additional note: Wonder Woman got a weapons upgrade after that fight. Magic lightning from her bracers. That's a tool that'd make things even dicier for Clark, and is of more minor benefit against Billy.

Here are the rest of superheroes both had killed

Original JLA as they are in the main universe

Originally posted by -Pr-

And it still goes back to my original point where Diana didn't even seem to think she'd beaten him, hence her killing Maxwell Lord.

Well, her goal was to fix his mind.. Even if she blatantly knocked him cold, there's still freeing him from Lords control.

And extending the fight, only gives Max time to get away.

Not that I think WW "defeated" Superman. But she did have good reason to focus on Max over her fight.

delta
hahahahahah You do NOT want to bring-up her bashing his ears in. She sneaks-up on him, and bashes two very vulnerable areas with her BRACELETS and she still can't knock him out? That shows how inferior she is to him. That'd be like you sneaking-up behind someone and bashing them in the ears with 2 cast iron skillets and failing to KO him.

Well, difference of opinion. She got behind him and made one of the strongest people on the planet scream in pain.

Also, that type of hit... doesn't render people unconscious anyway.

I haven't seen anything to convince me her lightning would make a significant difference with what Superman's endured before.

It blasted back a god and rendered an Ivo-made combat android into ash.

Bare minimum, it'd have made that attempt to throw her into the sun out of the question, as he'd be bugzapped the entire way up.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Wow, your reaching is certainly something, you might pull something in your body with that. You didn't post that non-existent scan of brother eye recording.

See, this is why PR and DTM and Delta are better debaters than you and actually worth debating. You jump immediately to gloating at the start of a debate, which is just silly. You don't know, you just assume.

It's the first page of OMAC #3, I'll get a scan shortly.

Here are the rest of superheroes both had killed

I think this, better than anything, is an argument against normal powers. And/or that Superman just being stronger than normal.

They beat GL, MM, etc. etc., even when the heroes knew they were coming and'd work together against them?

Normal Supes may be the strongest around, but not by that much, he can't really beat them all.

Originally posted by Q99
Well, difference of opinion. She got behind him and made one of the strongest people on the planet scream in pain.

Also, that type of hit... doesn't render people unconscious anyway.

It blasted back a god and rendered an Ivo-made combat android into ash.

Bare minimum, it'd have made that attempt to throw her into the sun out of the question, as he'd be bugzapped the entire way up.

See, this is why PR and DTM and Delta are better debaters than you and actually worth debating. You jump immediately to gloating at the start of a debate, which is just silly. You don't know, you just assume.

It's the first page of OMAC #3, I'll get a scan shortly.

I think this, better than anything, is an argument against normal powers. And/or that Superman just being stronger than normal.

They beat GL, MM, etc. etc., even when the heroes knew they were coming and'd work together against them?

Normal Supes may be the strongest around, but not by that much, he can't really beat them all.

Post the scan.

JLA was killed by LOSV. Have you even read the story?

Originally posted by cdtm
😮 Never happened.

😛

😛

Actually, at first it was two hands, it only went to one hand after the neck-snap and he'd had 25 seconds to heal.

And if she knocks that hand away? Suddenly he's losing blood and is going to be in danger of passing out.

And he was in shock from the attack to begin with, leaving him open to an immediate follow-up.

And she'd already defended against HV and freeze breath, this time they were in close range so HtH is more likely, and last time they were in HtH, 45 seconds before, she dealt more blows than he did when he had two arms.

even supposing it was 25 seconds, I don't see why HV wouldn't work; it had worked well against her already.

personally, i'd take quality over quantity. i'd even say he did more damage than she did. or at least, more lasting damage.

Originally posted by DTM
Agree 100%, as if Wonder Woman had beaten Superman with that throat slit, she wouldnt have then needed to turn her attention to Lord to kill him so that Supermans hold would be dropped. If that was a winning blow, she would simply have lassoed Lord up and ended this situation, but Superman wasnt out, he was delayed at best, so WW did the only thing she could do to stop Superman, that was kill Maxwell Lord. (and this is pretty much the best showing Ive ever seen WW have against Supes).

👆 my point exactly.

======

Also, guys, Absolute Power isn't usable either way.

Timestamps for you.

JLA was killed by LOSV. Have you even read the story?

Nope. Explain the situation, if you will, rather than pre-emptively assuming victory.

The story looks like a pretty heavily divergent timeline to me from the scans you posted.

The bracelet ear bash thing reminds me, that comic had it where he had to "activate" his super hearing.

First and only time he's ever had to do that. By rights, he should have heard WW's heartbeat anyways while using super hearing, or heard her breathing, or even the air moving, even if she used her super speed....

Originally posted by -Pr-
😛

even supposing it was 25 seconds, I don't see why HV wouldn't work; it had worked well against her already.

personally, i'd take quality over quantity. i'd even say he did more damage than she did. or at least, more lasting damage.

👆 my point exactly.

======

Also, guys, Absolute Power isn't usable either way.

Originally posted by cdtm
The bracelet ear bash thing reminds me, that comic had it where he had to "activate" his super hearing.

First and only time he's ever had to do that. By rights, he should have heard WW's heartbeat anyways while using super hearing, or heard her breathing, or even the air moving, even if she used her super speed....

It never said he had to activate it.

He just paused for a moment to listen and she struck. Keep in mind, she is superfast, she can move faster than sound, and she did just zip behind him when she wasn't there a moment before.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Why not? Its not like other time travel stories. Not only superman and batman retained their memories, they were physically the same throughout the arc and after the arc concluded. Take example of bishop, he was the only guy who wasn't altered in AOA and thus he retained his memories and what he did in AOA is canon for him.

Doesn't mean everyone else wasn't different.

And actually, a lot of time travel stories were like that. See all of Booster Gold's for example.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Why not? Its not like other time travel stories. Not only superman and batman retained their memories, they were physically the same throughout the arc and after the arc concluded. Take example of bishop, he was the only guy who wasn't altered in AOA and thus he retained his memories and what he did in AOA is canon for him.

True.

And besides, doesn't time travel work differently in DC than it does in Marvel? Time travel doesn't automatically create alternate timelines, and thus non canon feats in time travel stories, right?

Originally posted by Q99
It never said he had to activate it.

The words were something like "He's using his super hearing". He's ALWAYS using it, and focusing on it.. Otherwise, Jimmy's watch wouldn't be much use.

Originally posted by cdtm
The words were something like "He's using his super hearing". He's ALWAYS using it, and focusing on it.. Otherwise, Jimmy's watch wouldn't be much use.

I wouldn't say he's always focusing on it. I'm pretty sure there's been other occasions he's stopped to listen more closely.

I think even involving Jimmy's watch. He's stop, pause, listen for a moment and say 'that's Jimmy's signal watch!" or that sort of thing. Picking out max details seems like a thing he focuses on.

Originally posted by Q99

Timestamps for you.

Nope. Explain the situation, if you will, rather than pre-emptively assuming victory.

The story looks like a pretty heavily divergent timeline to me from the scans you posted.

No need for me to do that, you read the story. It wasn't and your view on it changes nothing.