Wonder Woman vs Captain Marvel (Shazam)

Originally posted by Q99
I wouldn't say he's always focusing on it. I'm pretty sure there's been other occasions he's stopped to listen more closely.

I think even involving Jimmy's watch. He's stop, pause, listen for a moment and say 'that's Jimmy's signal watch!" or that sort of thing. Picking out max details seems like a thing he focuses on.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Okay, you were right. But that hardly changes anything as we saw the slit throat didn't do much as he was still talking

The talking only occurred after the 'kill me' and neck snap- so after that 24 seconds to heal.

and he has fought with worse wounds like chest riddled with bullets and a kryptonite sword through heart.

Sure, but against a skilled foe who've already been dishing out some hurt on him before having that handicapped? Not the best position.

That and he went into shock everytime he was freed from max's control. He wasn't helpless, accept it and move on.

He looked like he was in shock before the control broke.

He wasn't completely helpless, but he was severely disadvantaged.

Even if you don't count it as a win, she was definitely winn-ing.

He also didn't have any reason to attack as he was freed from max's control just after that attack.

Yea, and if he hadn't been, he'd be fighting with a major neck wound for the next half a minute minimum.

No need for me to do that, you read the story. It wasn't and your view on it changes nothing.

It's not diverged even those WW looks different, all the heroes are dead, they have different experiences, but Superman and Batman both remember it so it counts, even though it's widely considered that the time divergences the like of Booster Gold handle which are made in similar ways and which he remembers are non-canon and don't count?

Gotcha.

Listen, I'm willing to take your word to describe it properly unless something says otherwise, but "I'm not going to tell you the evidence," just sounds like, "I don't want to admit it."

Originally posted by Q99
Well, difference of opinion. She got behind him and made one of the strongest people on the planet scream in pain.

Also, that type of hit... doesn't render people unconscious anyway.

If it were her simply boxing his ears, you'd have a point. But she bashed his ears with her bracelets. That would be like bashing someone in the ears with 2 cast iron skillets. How do you think YOU would stand-up to someone bashing you between the ears with those? Wonder Woman looks horrible in there since she couldn't KO him the way she attacked him.

Originally posted by Q99
It blasted back a god and rendered an Ivo-made combat android into ash.

I'm not impressed. Knocking back a god itself doesn't mean anything. I dunno the level the android you're referring to was at, but I know Amazo models have had inconsistencies. Superman on the other hand wasn't downed when Captain Marvel used several Shazam bolts, nor when Shazam himself blast Superman multiple times after the fight with Captain Marvel. And Superman had fought a Kryptonian battlesuit that had Kryptonite in the alloy and blasted him with red solar radiation before his fight with Captain Marvel, so he would've been weakened to a degree.

Originally posted by Q99
Bare minimum, it'd have made that attempt to throw her into the sun out of the question, as he'd be bugzapped the entire way up.

And doesn't she require connecting the bracelets to do this? She was not able to break his grip via pure strength, she had to use pain compliance to make him let go. Which is another example of why she looked blatantly inferior in the SACRIFICE fight. She basically attempted to use the same choke defense technique in Krav Maga. A technique that allows you to break the grip of a STRONGER attacker. So if she's STILL unable to break the grip, he's MUCH, MUCH stronger.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o9srBDFW0Z0

Originally posted by Q99
Normal Supes may be the strongest around, but not by that much, he can't really beat them all.

Which JLAer other than Superman has multiple examples showing him stronger than multiple Top-Tiers combined, again?

Also, I should note, you apparently ignored the point I made about she wouldn't have been able to pull-off the tiara throw under normal circumstances, after I corrected your response.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Okay, you were right. But that hardly changes anything as we saw the slit throat didn't do much as he was still talking and he has fought with worse wounds like chest riddled with bullets and a kryptonite sword through heart. That and he went into shock everytime he was freed from max's control. He wasn't helpless, accept it and move on. He also didn't have any reason to attack as he was freed from max's control just after that attack.

No need for me to do that, you read the story. It wasn't and your view on it changes nothing.

I think him being somewhat ok after Emperor Joker literally ripped-out his heart(MORTAL KOMBAT-style) would be a good showing of still around after serious damage.

And I noticed this has turned into Superman VS Wonder Woman, from WW VS Captain Marvel. Is it my fault because I brought-up their fights against Superman as a gauge for each other?

Originally posted by Q99
The talking only occurred after the 'kill me' and neck snap- so after that 24 seconds to heal.

Sure, but against a skilled foe who've already been dishing out some hurt on him before having that handicapped? Not the best position.

He looked like he was in shock before the control broke.

He wasn't completely helpless, but he was severely disadvantaged.

Even if you don't count it as a win, she was definitely winn-ing.

Yea, and if he hadn't been, he'd be fighting with a major neck wound for the next half a minute minimum.

It's not diverged even those WW looks different, all the heroes are dead, they have different experiences, but Superman and Batman both remember it so it counts, even though it's widely considered that the time divergences the like of Booster Gold handle which are made in similar ways and which he remembers are non-canon and don't count?

Gotcha.

Listen, I'm willing to take your word to describe it properly unless something says otherwise, but "I'm not going to tell you the evidence," just sounds like, "I don't want to admit it."

What booster gold experiences are divergent timelines, here the main timeline got changed and changed back. So diana had lasso of truth, her bracers, her sword, shield but since she didn't wore panties, she was different? Excellent logic. Superman and batman also imprisoned deadman and mention that zatanna was still a powerful magician, so your theory fails here too. Also, I didn't tell you because I don't want to. You can think whatever you want for all I care. Its perfectly canon and perfectly usable.

Right. We DO have Captain Marvel being two-shotted by Superman, who was mind controlled, so.....

If we remember that this thread is WW vs Cap Marvel, not WW vs Superman, well, Cap M isn't quite the same in a fistfight as Superman, not by feats really. He's to Superman what BRB is to Thor.

If it were her simply boxing his ears, you'd have a point. But she bashed his ears with her bracelets. That would be like bashing someone in the ears with 2 cast iron skillets. How do you think YOU would stand-up to someone bashing you between the ears with those? Wonder Woman looks horrible in there since she couldn't KO him the way she attacked him.

Keep in mind, at this level, hitting with unbreakable metal and hitting with flesh isn't a significant difference, it's super-tough either way. It's not like the difference between our flesh and metal.

And doesn't she require connecting the bracelets to do this?

Nope. Crossing the bracers is required for the aegis-shield effect but not the bug zap.

The Ivo-made android she ashed was holding both of her arms behind her back when she fried it.

Which JLAer other than Superman has multiple examples showing him stronger than multiple Top-Tiers combined, again?

Superman admittedly does have the best showings, but still, he's got plenty of times when fighting a top tier is a real fight for him.

Also, I should note, you apparently ignored the point I made about she wouldn't have been able to pull-off the tiara throw under normal circumstances, after I corrected your response.

And he does think Doomsday has lassos? Because he dodged that. Thinking she was Doomsday, interestingly, did not stop him from reacting to WW-specific attacks.

Doomsday does have projectiles too- bone spikes- so there's not even a reason for him to not think there would be projectiles at some point. I could see misjudging the threat a bit, but a bone spike to the throat'd hurt too.

And I noticed this has turned into Superman VS Wonder Woman, from WW VS Captain Marvel. Is it my fault because I brought-up their fights against Superman as a gauge for each other?

I wouldn't blame yourself.

They are in kind of a 'V' with Superman at the middle, and both of them being the regulars called to fight him when he's controlled or something (something that I think speaks well of both- "Superman's mind control? Quick, call one of those two! No, you can sit down, J'onn."😉. So, somewhat natural comparison point.

Originally posted by abhilegend
You stepped down from helpless to disadvantaged, that's a start. Could she have used her advantage, maybe. Could she win, not likely seeing he has bounced back from worse. He was healed and wasn't even down from the attack, how's that a winning position? Superman could've just punched in the sun except earth and would've ended that disaster of a story. A neck wound that didn't stop him from talking, meh. He's fought without a heart before.

Pretty likely, considering she was already dealing him significant damage before that point. Without the ability to defend himself nearly as well, the damage is going to pile up faster.

A neck wound that, given half a minute to let his healing work, was healed enough to allow talking.

And she's fought while impaled and blinded before, where the flesh has been peeled off her bones by sorcery, and so on.

What booster gold experiences are divergent timelines, here the main timeline got changed and changed back. So diana had lasso of truth, her bracers, her sword, shield but since she didn't wore panties, she was different?

There are plenty of alt-worlds where the WW has those things. Almost every one, in fact. And it's not just the outfit, but that things happened different in that world meaning her experiences are different. That Diana might've never temporarily been ascended to a god, or fought half the foes she did to gain experience, or gotten some of the power boosts she received.

And the main timeline changing and changing back is what Booster Gold deals with too. Or the JSA, or everyone else.

That's actually normal.

Excellent logic. Superman and batman also imprisoned deadman and mention that zatanna was still a powerful magician, so your theory fails here too.

Yeeeea, you do realize this applies to, like, half of the non-canon timelines out there?

Tons of timelines have most of the people look the same and have similar roles.

Also, I didn't tell you because I don't want to. You can think whatever you want for all I care. Its perfectly canon and perfectly usable.

Ok, but if you don't explain, then you aren't actually using it in the debate.

Saying "I could win a debate with this, but I don't want to," does in fact mean you aren't winning a debate with it. You could be right, could be wrong, but it's just ceding the field.

Originally posted by Q99
Keep in mind, at this level, hitting with unbreakable metal and hitting with flesh isn't a significant difference, it's super-tough either way. It's not like the difference between our flesh and metal.

Then why is it when Captain Marvel KOed Superman with ZEUS-AMPED sucker-punches, that he rubbed his hand as if he hurt it after? Or when Superman punched Lobo into orbit in MOS #30, he noted his powers must have increased because his knuckles didn't even hurt? Before Kryptonite-X he was on at least a comparable level to Wonder Woman. Going by that logic, it seems like she wouldn't need her bracelets aside from they're too iconic.

Originally posted by Q99
Nope. Crossing the bracers is required for the aegis-shield effect but not the bug zap.

The Ivo-made android she ashed was holding both of her arms behind her back when she fried it.

I've only seen one or two examples of her using it, so I'll have to take your word for it.

Originally posted by Q99
Superman admittedly does have the best showings, but still, he's got plenty of times when fighting a top tier is a real fight for him.

You forget that he holds back more than others. And in fact, he's been outright stated to hold back to the point he suppresses his own powers. And we've got examples of him increasing his powers in a dynamic manner similar to Hulk. And I've seen other examples of him simply showing to be a good deal stronger than various other Top-Tiers(Wonder Woman, J'OInn, Captain Marvel) that aren't even his best showings.

Originally posted by Q99
And he does think Doomsday has lassos? Because he dodged that. Thinking she was Doomsday, interestingly, did not stop him from reacting to WW-specific attacks.

Doomsday does have projectiles too- bone spikes- so there's not even a reason for him to not think there would be projectiles at some point. I could see misjudging the threat a bit, but a bone spike to the throat'd hurt too.

Originally posted by Delta1938
That was BEFORE Diana had wrapped Max in the lasso. When he dodged the lasso, she states "What's Max making him see now?" A bit of a difference when Max's tied-up and focused on her with her hand on his throat

Originally posted by Q99
I wouldn't blame yourself.

They are in kind of a 'V' with Superman at the middle, and both of them being the regulars called to fight him when he's controlled or something (something that I think speaks well of both- "Superman's mind control? Quick, call one of those two! No, you can sit down, J'onn."😉. So, somewhat natural comparison point.

Oh I know it's natural to use Superman to compare them. He's one of only two character I can think of off the top of my head that both have fought(the other being Captain Nazi) and the only one I'm aware of that both have had multiple fights with. So he's probably the best comparison aside from their own fights, which I only know two of.

Doesn't change the fact though that this has gone completely off-topic and I don't think I've really seen anybody argue for WW VS CM in a while. Even Pr, who in his mod-duties I've seen tell everybody to get back on top in AT LEAST three separate threads THAT I'VE SEEN since I came back yesterday(depending on where you are, and your sense of time), has gotten in on the Superman VS Wonder Woman debate train. Which amuses me.

And I started it. 🙁 😮

Originally posted by Q99
Pretty likely, considering she was already dealing him significant damage before that point.

Saying "I could win a debate with this, but I don't want to," does in fact mean you aren't winning a debate with it. You could be right, could be wrong, but it's just ceding the field.

If he can talk....he could have sung her out of existence 😈

On other note Sacrifice was just terribly written. I laugh when WW fangirls say that it was how a smart superman fight. Here he is heat visioning towards sky while having her in a vulnerable position after snapping her arm

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
If he can talk....he could have sung her out of existence 😈

Originally posted by abhilegend
hmm
He has cracked hal's construct and threw WW away by just raising his voice in frustration. Imagine him shouting like black bolt!

I know the Hal construct crack, but knocking her away by raising her voice? When'd that happen?

Originally posted by Delta1938
I know the Hal construct crack, but knocking her away by raising her voice? When'd that happen?

Hey, Delta, what happened to your promise to me from yesterday?

I'd appreciate knowing your opinion on the matches in the following thread and/or having some of your input there.

Agree with the response I was given? Disagree?

Thanks for your time.

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f71/t565671.html

Originally posted by Delta1938
I heard Darkseid was responsible for the pantheon splitting into the Greek and Roman counter-parts(to weaken their potential threat), and at the end of WAR OF THE GODS they merged back together. I have WAR OF THE GODS but haven't read it yet. Right now reading UP, UP AND AWAY, will read WOTG next and tell you when I finish.

And I'll check that thread later tonight.

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
Hey, Delta, what happened to your promise to me from yesterday?

I'd appreciate knowing your opinion on the matches in the following thread and/or having some of your input there.

Agree with the response I was given? Disagree?

Thanks for your time.

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f71/t565671.html

I started the video, paused it, then had to step away for a while, then my headphones broke. 🙁

Wonder Woman is much faster than Captain Marvel, able to force herself into the speed force under her own power.https://m.imgur.com/a/jS1uF

She has consistent feats of being comparable to Clark physically, and if we use stand alone feats without scaling from Superman, Wonder Woman still comes out on top.

For example, Captain Marvel has the strength of Hercules, but Diana physically wrecks Hercules on a regular basis

Superman>Wonder Woman>Captain Marvel

Diana was using a gateway which amped her speed a hundred times. She didn't get into speed force either.

She still has this feat, which is at least thousands of times faster than light (so way faster than Billy can even conceive)

https://m.imgur.com/a/5dOoi

Originally posted by XLR87T3
She still has this feat, which is at least thousands of times faster than light (so way faster than Billy can even conceive)

https://m.imgur.com/a/5dOoi

https://readcomiconline.to/Comic/Wonder-Woman-1987/Issue-194?id=7150

She was outflying the particles by flying into near orbit, not even going into space.