Time-Trapper Vs Phoenix Force

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
If you read the multiple posts ive made ive stated them multiple times as well as given reasons why TT wouldnt.

TT just doesnt sound like a top tier cosmic. Hes a time manipulating cosmic. Cool. Not on the PFs level.

Time manipulating cosmics could be pretty powerful. Rex Tyler, the Hourman android, faced down an entity that created constructs from a Big Bang, that could became replicas of anyone they came into contact with. They even made an imperfect copy of The Worlogog, one of the most powerful relics in DCU... And Rex did this with it:

Not too bad, for a flawed copy, right?

Of course, what Time Trapper is capable of is another argument, but it's a good example of just how powerful mere "time cosmics" could be.

Originally posted by cdtm
Time manipulating cosmics could be pretty powerful. Rex Tyler, the Hourman android, faced down an entity that created constructs from a Big Bang, that could became replicas of anyone they came into contact with. They even made an imperfect copy of The Worlogog, one of the most powerful relics in DCU... And Rex did this with it:

Not too bad, for a flawed copy, right?

Of course, what Time Trapper is capable of is another argument, but it's a good example of just how powerful mere "time cosmics" could be.

Nice.

And Jean Grey one of many hosts the Phoenix Force empowers across the multiverse casually amputated 150 years of timeline from the multiverse and disposed of it with a thought-

An unprecedented feat of timeline manipulation to sever and dispose of timeline as if it were a physical object.

Jean Grey can also manipulate the a universe down to its component atoms:

The Force is not bound to the timestream, it is both of and beyond time and space

and it is a multiversal power that powers avatars across the multiversal and can empower avatars such as Jean with the ability to manipulate whole universes in her palm. An exponential feat when you consider the Force simultaneously powers other avatars and sustains reality as the energies of creation.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Nice.

And Jean Grey one of many hosts the Phoenix Force empowers across the multiverse casually amputated 150 years of timeline from the multiverse and disposed of it with a thought-

An unprecedented feat of timeline manipulation to sever and dispose of timeline as if it were a physical object.

Jean Grey can also manipulate the a universe down to its component atoms:

The Force is not bound to the timestream, it is both of and beyond time and space

and it is a multiversal power that powers avatars across the multiversal and can empower avatars such as Jean with the ability to manipulate whole universes in her palm. An exponential feat when you consider the Force simultaneously powers other avatars and sustains reality as the energies of creation.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Trapper was seen doing the same i.e. manipulating entire DCU on the palm of his hand and stopping the wall of anti-matter that erased the entire multiverse from effecting the pocket universe. Trapper is entropy incarnate which devour entire universes. Imperiex with the power of entropy created another big bang. Those are good feats but trapper's feat are better.

True, Trapper did protect his universe from the Crisis, which is how he manipulated Superboy.

[i]Originally posted by GalacticStorm

An unprecedented feat of timeline manipulation to sever and dispose of timeline as if it were a physical object.

Interesting.. So she just willed it, and destroyed an entire future alternate timeline?

Jean Grey can also manipulate the a universe down to its component atoms:

Impressive. The first scan sounds like God Cable level stuff, but repairing an infant universe is something else. I'll have to check out the White Phoenix story now. 😄

The Force is not bound to the timestream, it is both of and beyond time and space

[quote]

and it is a multiversal power that powers avatars across the multiversal and can empower avatars such as Jean with the ability to manipulate whole universes in her palm. An exponential feat when you consider the Force simultaneously powers other avatars and sustains reality as the energies of creation. [/B]

But the PF still inhabits an avatar for this fight, right? So far, no scans of a disembodied PF are being offered, therefore the PF is limited by the power displayed by its best avatar....

Just like the white light entity in Blackest Night may be supremely powerful as a concept, but has no combat feats all its own..

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
So in other words you wish to decline my offer to pick apart my argument point for point because you have no solid argument, no evidence to back you up, just a contrary opinion? : 😕

We'll leave it at that 😄

Originally posted by abhilegend
Trapper was seen doing the same i.e. manipulating entire DCU on the palm of his hand and stopping the wall of anti-matter that erased the entire multiverse from effecting the pocket universe. Trapper is entropy incarnate which devour entire universes. Imperiex with the power of entropy created another big bang. Those are good feats but trapper's feat are better.

Well its not really the same because TT is just manipulating time. He has control over one facet of existence. However TT needs reality, he needs a timestream for his powers to have relevance. If you think of a universe as a video file. TTs power is related to the timetrack of that file and enables him to pause reality at any point, fast forward, or rewind to parts he wants to visit or view. Cool. The video file itself is a manifestation of the multiversal Phoenix Force within reality. It has the power to enable one of its many hosts to also act as a software suite to do everything TT can but also play video editor and edit the timetrack itself, delete parts of it, rearrange the order of the timetrack and also apply special effects to change the content of the file from the original. Also with a host empowered to be able to manipulate the energy and matter of reality on a universal scale they could also act as a file converter to change the fundamental properties of the file. Or to send the file itself to the recycle bin.

The fact that a single one of its many multiversal hosts can out perform the TT whilst the Phoenix also empowers other hosts and also sustains creation shows you how out of his league TT would be against the PF itself.

A closer match would be TT vs the White Phoenix Of The Crown and he would still lose.

People too often make the mistake of ignoring what continuity has stated and shown and thinking that the hosts showings equate to all the PF is capable of or that the firebird avatar is the sum of the PF. It is not. It is a manifestation. Hosts performances are dependent on their experience, their intentions and whether said intentions coincide with the PFs agenda.

In Marvel the Phoenix Force determines the creation cycle meaning Entropy has no power over it.

A single host of the Force can manipulate all the matter and energy of the universe in her palm

A single host can dispose of timelines (the source of TTs power) with a thought

A host of the PF can contain a multiversal power source

TT is no match for the PF.

Originally posted by cdtm
Interesting.. So she just willed it, and destroyed an entire future alternate timeline?

Exactly. An entire timeline was casually severed from the multiverse and disposed of with a thought. That is unprecedented power.

Originally posted by cdtm
Impressive. The first scan sounds like God Cable level stuff, but repairing an infant universe is something else. I'll have to check out the White Phoenix story now. 😄

The 1st few sentences sound like God Cable stuff but then the stuff about making universes does not. 😛

Check out Grant Morrison's New X-men run. Hands down the best X-men run in the past decade.

Jean could amputate and destroy timelines, manipulate the energy and matter of a reality down to its component atoms in her palm and alter events without creating a divergent future which is again unprecedented in Marvel.

Originally posted by cdtm
But the PF still inhabits an avatar for this fight, right? So far, no scans of a disembodied PF are being offered, therefore the PF is limited by the power displayed by its best avatar....

Just like the white light entity in Blackest Night may be supremely powerful as a concept, but has no combat feats all its own..

No. The Phoenix Force can and has acted without hosts. It just likes to act within a host because its mere presence in reality will cause it to automatically reabsorb the ambient life energies reserved for future generations. So it prefers at a universal level to be the formless energies of creation and to just have a host tap into its power instead. However many times it has acted itself as and where necessary.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Well its not really the same because TT is just manipulating time. He has control over one facet of existence. However TT needs reality, he needs a timestream for his powers to have relevance. If you think of a universe as a video file. TTs power is related to the timetrack of that file and enables him to pause reality at any point, fast forward, or rewind to parts he wants to visit or view. Cool. The video file itself is a manifestation of the multiversal Phoenix Force within reality. It has the power to enable one of its many hosts to also act as a software suite to do everything TT can but also play video editor and edit the timetrack itself, delete parts of it, rearrange the order of the timetrack and also apply special effects to change the content of the file from the original. Also with a host empowered to be able to manipulate the energy and matter of reality on a universal scale they could also act as a file converter to change the fundamental properties of the file. Or to send the file itself to the recycle bin.

The fact that a single one of its many multiversal hosts can out perform the TT whilst the Phoenix also empowers other hosts and also sustains creation shows you how out of his league TT would be against the PF itself.

A closer match would be TT vs the White Phoenix Of The Crown and he would still lose.

People too often make the mistake of ignoring what continuity has stated and shown and thinking that the hosts showings equate to all the PF is capable of or that the firebird avatar is the sum of the PF. It is not. It is a manifestation. Hosts performances are dependent on their experience, their intentions and whether said intentions coincide with the PFs agenda.

In Marvel the Phoenix Force determines the creation cycle meaning Entropy has no power over it.

A single host of the Force can manipulate all the matter and energy of the universe in her palm

A single host can dispose of timelines (the source of TTs power) with a thought

A host of the PF can contain a multiversal power source

TT is no match for the PF.

I still disagree and don't want to go further into the Marvel cosmology. In this vs thread we have two differently working cosmologies. The PF didn't created the DCU or is the Big Bang of the DCU. It's role in Marvel is even debatable as we see, it could be as powerful as you think or it is somewhere between the abstracts as most think.
If you say it can't be manipulated by a DC Time Manipulator, who has the feats to let us think that he should be easily powerful enough to do it and your sole argument is "because it is responsible for the timestream and is beyond it" well then it can't in turn do anything to TT as it hasn't created the DC Time and isn't responsible for it.
When you say "its Role is so significant in the Marvel U" then I say that it counterparts Role in the DCU isn't and we end where we started. By feats shown I would give it to TT, by the threat he poses and the way he is portrayed in his company cosmology. The PF seemed to need Help with great tasks and seems to have limits like here
and when it meets "real" Abstracts, it's treated with respect but more like a child. Maybe because of it host *shrug.

Originally posted by Batman-Prime
I still disagree and don't want to go further into the Marvel cosmology. In this vs thread we have two differently working cosmologies. The PF didn't created the DCU or is the Big Bang of the DCU. It's role in Marvel is even debatable as we see, it could be as powerful as you think or it is somewhere between the abstracts as most think.
If you say it can't be manipulated by a DC Time Manipulator, who has the feats to let us think that he should be easily powerful enough to do it and your sole argument is "because it is responsible for the timestream and is beyond it" well then it can't in turn do anything to TT as it hasn't created the DC Time and isn't responsible for it.
When you say "its Role is so significant in the Marvel U" then I say that it counterparts Role in the DCU isn't and we end where we started. By feats shown I would give it to TT, by the threat he poses and the way he is portrayed in his company cosmology. The PF seemed to need Help with great tasks and seems to have limits like here
and when it meets "real" Abstracts, it's treated with respect but more like a child. Maybe because of it host *shrug.

When it comes to cross company battles on this forum we sort of lump them together in one omniverse so we wouldnt say one characters powers wouldnt effect the other merely because theyre from different companies. If you got the impression that i was saying TT couldnt effect the PF because theyre from different companies then thats not what i was saying.

TTs powers are dependent on the timestream, he manipulates the timestream to do what he does.

As shown on panel Jean Grey can with a thought can amputate, edit and disposes of timelines. The PF is not bound to a timeline. Time is one facet of existence and it is the only facet that TT has control over. What if the PF again just casually disposed of the universe, just what is the TT going to do?

The PF has many a time on panel been addressed by the Abstracts and other cosmics like the Watcher and its place in the Marvel cosmology has been confirmed. Eternity has stated his and all of the Abstracts existence is dependent on the PF. Death and the Watcher have stated that without the Phoenix Force there would be a void, non existence and many of them have confirmed the Big Bang is the Phoenix Force. Whilst runs like New X-men and statements that it is a multiversal power (a point confirmed by its latest handbook entry) all confirm its comparative power.

As you acknowledge its uses of human hosts with their inherent fallibility can determine how they are addressed on panel or what showings they have however as i have shown in this thread there are a multitude of circumstances where other cosmics address the PF itself and relay its position in the cosmology.

^So by Feats the PF manipulated one Universe and Timestream and was defeated by less. TT on the other hand did more. So it is not bound to one Timeline, well TT can manipulate more then one, why not manipulate all Timelines if it what it takes to beat her 😉.

Edit: BTW the PF moves within a certain Timne and Timesstream, if it would by any means be that powerful as in that one instance you are referring to. There would never be a fight. It's a part of the now a part of the Universe and not the Universe itself, this would be eternity. Eternity isn't part of the Pf else it wouldn't move inside him. It might help restart the cycle but after that it's shown as a part of it, bound to it's rules *shurg.

Originally posted by Batman-Prime
^So by Feats the PF manipulated one Universe and Timestream and was defeated by less. TT on the other hand did more. So it is not bound to one Timeline, well TT can manipulate more then one, why not manipulate all Timelines if it what it takes to beat her 😉.

Youre still not getting it.

Jean Grey didnt just manipulate a timeline, she amputated it like it was a physical object and then disposed of it casually with a thought.

TTs powers stem from the manipulation of timelines. Timelines as demonstrated are nothing to even a host of the PF. What can TT do to a being not bound to time and who can casually dispatch of that which TT needs to make his powers relevant? 😕

In the same way the Fury killed James Jaspers the reality warper. He took out of the equation, that which made Jaspers powers relevant...reality. Rendering him powerless.

Furthermore what youre not getting is what time is just one facet of reality. It is a concept which only has relevance if reality exists which is why the Big Bang, the formation of the universe is the beginning of time. As ive demonstrated PF has unprecedented control over not only time, but the substance of reality as well.

Jean Grey as the White Phoenix could take out TT.
She has contained multiversal powers (a feat in itself more impressive than anything TTs done)
Shes amputated and dispatched of timelines with a thought
Furthermore she manipulated all the matter of 616 down to its component atoms in her palm with no discernible effort. 616, the core universe from which all others in Marvel derive. An unprecedented feat.

Jean Grey >>>>>TT

PF>>>>>>>than both

Sry what you are not getting is that it works different in DC and that even if the Marvel timelines would start its timeline from the Big Bang and there would be no "before" doesn't mean that it's role is the same in DC. They fight on neutral ground. with their feats as weapons and imho TT has the better fighting record. Time Manipulators are quite powerful in DC the Big Bang is just one little part of the Time stream. You can see it from both positions or just from one.
TT >> PF >>>>> Jean Grey
Well at least we agree that the PF >>> Jean Grey, so nevermind ^^.

PS: And what she did is nothing compared what TT can do or did with the Time, it's his turf after all^^.

Originally posted by Batman-Prime

Edit: BTW the PF moves within a certain Timne and Timesstream, if it would by any means be that powerful as in that one instance you are referring to. There would never be a fight. It's a part of the now a part of the Universe and not the Universe itself, this would be eternity. Eternity isn't part of the Pf else it wouldn't move inside him. It might help restart the cycle but after that it's shown as a part of it, bound to it's rules *shurg.

Again displaying your lack of knowledge about the character youre debating about.

This is why youre arguing against me, because of a misunderstanding and lack of knowledge on the issue at hand.

Eternity is the concept of time, he embodies the chronal axis whilst Infinity embodies the spatial axis.

This has been continuity since the early 90s

The Phoenix Force is among other things the Big Bang, the actual energies of creation and following the Big Bang event concepts such as those represented by the Abstracts gain relevance and they come into being and they get their might by tapping into these ambient energies.

In this very thread ive already posted various scans of the PF being called the Big Bang so i dont need to repeat the point.

The PF is the energies of creation, Eternity is the concept of time that gains relevance following the Big Bang and he embodies all along the chronal axis in concept, not physically, that would be the PF.

The PF is a multiversal entity, so what you need to understand is that it is not bound to any single timeline, it also exists beyond time and space within the White Hot Room where it empowers and polices the multiversal "Phoenix Corps"

So a universal time warper is nothing to the multiversal PF.

Timelines which TT needs to use his power can be rendered a non factor

Originally posted by Batman-Prime
Sry what you are not getting is that it works different in DC and that even if the Marvel timelines would start its timeline from the Big Bang and there would be no "before" doesn't mean that it's role is the same in DC. They fight on neutral ground. with their feats as weapons and imho TT has the better fighting record. Time Manipulators are quite powerful in DC the Big Bang is just one little part of the Time stream. You can see it from both positions or just from one.
TT >> PF >>>>> Jean Grey
Well at least we agree that the PF >>> Jean Grey, so nevermind ^^.

PS: And what she did is nothing compared what TT can do or did with the Time, it's his turf after all^^.

The Big Bang is the start of the timeline. If there was no Big Bang there would be no timestream to manipulate as it is the starting point.

Regardless, my point still stands the PF is a multiversal entity not bound to any timeline, it can casually dispatch of timelines and realities which would remove time from the equation. Then what is TT going to do? 😕

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
The Big Bang is the start of the timeline. If there was no Big Bang there would be no timestream to manipulate as it is the starting point.

Regardless, my point still stands the PF is a multiversal entity not bound to any timeline, it can casually dispatch of timelines and realities which would remove time from the equation. Then what is TT going to do? 😕

Either you don't want to listen or you don't understand me.

Did the PF start the Big Bang in the DCU?

Do the Timelines work the same in both cosmologies?

There was a Time before the Big Bang in DC and Marvel, right?

ZH Parallax feats were Multiversal, TTs too.
Lets assume it can dispatch of a Timeline and remove Time from the Marvel reality, the DC reality is still independent and hence beyond its reach, isn't it? It had no part in DC creation hence not influence on it's timelines, which works differently.
So on neutral ground they will have to fight over the Timeline of an neutral and independent Universe, where considering their showings and displays of power and time manipulation the PF would be stomped hard.
In the Marvel U the TT might lose, though I still never saw the Pf display as much "power" as in that one instance. In the DCU she would be limited to her powers which had limits and her role would be not important at all.

Originally posted by Batman-Prime
Either you don't want to listen or you don't understand me.

Did the PF start the Big Bang in the DCU?

Do the Timelines work the same in both cosmologies?

There was a Time before the Big Bang in DC and Marvel, right?

ZH Parallax feats were Multiversal, TTs too.
Lets assume it can dispatch of a Timeline and remove Time from the Marvel reality, the DC reality is still independent and hence beyond its reach, isn't it? It had no part in DC creation hence not influence on it's timelines, which works differently.
So on neutral ground they will have to fight over the Timeline of an neutral and independent Universe, where considering their showings and displays of power and time manipulation the PF would be stomped hard.
In the Marvel U the TT might lose, though I still never saw the Pf display as much "power" as in that one instance. In the DCU she would be limited to her powers which had limits and her role would be not important at all.

Bro if they are on neutral ground in a neutral creation then their powers would for the sake of the forum battle still work the same.
TT can manipulate timelines, the PF can also manipulate timelines but can go a step further through its ability amputate and regrow timelines with a casual thought or destroy them completely. That ability remains within a neutral battleground. Therefore Jean Grey let alone the PF could handle TT by removing from the equation, that which TT needs to make his power relevant.

If theyre standing on the battle field then with a thought Jean Grey removes the timeline, what is TT going to do?

Furthermore the PF has displayed far more power than TT ever has. Time is just a single facet of reality. The PF can control all of reality down to its component parts, it is the multiversal energies of creation. The fact that it sustains all of creation tells you alone that it is on a different power level.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Again displaying your lack of knowledge about the character youre debating about.

This is why youre arguing against me, because of a misunderstanding and lack of knowledge on the issue at hand.

No you become offensive just because I disagree?

I'm forever, everthing that is, was or will ever be... well not only Time it seems.

And here, since you like Handbooks and so.
http://marvel.com/universe/Eternity
Eternity came into existence when the universe was formed (along with Death, Oblivion, and Infinity) and spontaneously assumed the collective consciousness of all living things in the Universe. He is every living thing and every living thing is him; thus he controls everything in all plains of existence with the exception of the Living Tribunal, who maintains the cosmic balance of power. Eternity is the physical incarnation of time, whereas his sister Infinity represents space. Also, if Galactus ever dies or does not exist, the opposite of Eternity, Abraxas, would come into being. Eternity is guarded by Captain Universe.

And here, it seems, Marvel.com doesn't gives the Pf such a great role as you, a big one but not beyond the Universe or other Abstracts
http://marvel.com/universe/Phoenix_Force
Born of the void between states of being, the Phoenix Force is a child of the universe. In the dying moments of the previous universe, the Force saved all existence from eternal damnation, enabling Eternity to preserve the humanoid Galan, ensuring his re-creation as Galactus. The Force was subsequently reborn from the cosmic fires of the “Big Bang.”

So I can't agree with your "opinion" mine differs from what i have read and seen. Sure one can always take some things out of context and ignore everything else but looking at the Pf and it's appearances it's an Abstract, imho on the level of Galactus who still should be able to manipulate it, below Eternity and Death for sure. Sorry bro.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Bro if they are on neutral ground in a neutral creation then their powers would for the sake of the forum battle still work the same.
TT can manipulate timelines, the PF can also manipulate timelines but can go a step further through its ability amputate and regrow timelines with a casual thought or destroy them completely. That ability remains within a neutral battleground. Therefore Jean Grey let alone the PF could handle TT by removing from the equation, that which TT needs to make his power relevant.

If theyre standing on the battle field then with a thought Jean Grey removes the timeline, what is TT going to do?

Furthermore the PF has displayed far more power than TT ever has. Time is just a single facet of reality. The PF can control all of reality down to its component parts, it is the multiversal energies of creation. The fact that it sustains all of creation tells you alone that it is on a different power level.

The Pf would TRY to remove the Timeline but given his greater powers over time, his experiance and his Timemanipulatiing feats he wouldn't let her, simple as that, he showed the power. He is better with Time then the PF, really.

BTW can you show me the PF taking out every and all timelines, removing Time in your words, Eternity, from existance? So that there is no time in the Universe?

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
The Phoenix Force is among other things the Big Bang, the actual energies of creation

😆 😆 😆 😆 😆