Superboy Prime vs The Avengers

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Yeah, guys, I think we may be overloading bluewater here; invariably, one of our points will be missed.

So in summary:
1.Delta: these scans are irrelevant, I was referring to BA and all the other top tiers being unable to put SBP down. And the other top tiers are all far above the Avengers, except for Thor and Hulk, and even they can't do much.

2. Pr: If your interpretations of the scans are correct, what reassembled SBP in your opinion? And how?

3: DarkSaint: I'm going to take your interpretation as correct. In which case, you've shown that SBP can reform from being disassembled atom by atom. An alternative opinion is that the Guardian blast, as powerful as it is, was only able to BFR him.

When Blue paints himself into a corner to the point even he can't think of something that he hopes spins it into he's right and we're wrong, he completely changes the subject. I expect him to try something else to lowball SBP in his next post, instead of acknowledging the points and arguments against his argument.

Originally posted by Delta1938

You brought-up Superboy and Wonder Girl affecting him with their punches like that's the norm.

That IS the norm for Connor -- that's what you don't seem to get.

You have to actively search to find times when Prime ISN'T bleeding from nose or lips when fighting Superboy Kent. In Infinite Crisis 4, it's Krypto who draws blood on SBP, Infinite Crisis 6, Connor himself.
Again in Final Crisis: Legion of 3 Worlds. And, of course, Teen Titans #100 Connor and just about everyone else.

At least 3 of 4 appearances have SBP shown bleeding from what Connor does to him. The first of 4 is the only that, arguably, does not have Connor bloodletting Prime. There, again, KRYPTO does that in Connor's stead.

It's actually YOU who is talking about exceptions to the rule, Delta, i.e. Prime NOT being affected by Superboy. Even the poster before you acknowledged mid-tier Connor HURTING Prime is the norm.

But SBP has a healing factor....that's like me bringing up that the Thing makes WWH bleed.....

And Delta, you were right.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
But SBP has a healing factor....that's like me bringing up that the Thing makes WWH bleed.....

And Delta, you were right.

D.S., it's perfectly valid to bring up that SBP has a healing factor if you think he has one. So does World War Hulk. And I imagine you could make a very good case for him being able to go up against Yat after the night fight as proof of that.

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
That IS the norm for Connor -- that's what you don't seem to get.

You have to actively search to find times when Prime ISN'T bleeding from nose or lips when fighting Superboy Kent. In Infinite Crisis 4, it's Krypto who draws blood on SBP, Infinite Crisis 6, Connor himself.
Again in Final Crisis: Legion of 3 Worlds. And, of course, Teen Titans #100 Connor and just about everyone else.

At least 3 of 4 appearances have SBP shown bleeding from what Connor does to him. The first of 4 is the only that, arguably, does not have Connor bloodletting Prime. There, again, KRYPTO does that in Connor's stead.

It's actually YOU who is talking about exceptions to the rule, Delta, i.e. Prime NOT being affected by Superboy. Even the poster before you acknowledged mid-tier Connor HURTING Prime is the norm.

http://s1199.photobucket.com/albums/aa466/Delta1938/Superboy%20Prime/Fights/IC%204/

Don't see Connor hurting SBP in any of the first 5 scans there. You've brought-up 3 one-on-one fights they've had. And you're trying to act as if Krypto causing him to bleed somehow counts for Connor? Ya do know that the jaw is the strongest muscle, and teeth are kinda sharp. Go figure that biting is more likely to draw blood than a punch.

I haven't read FINAL CRISIS and it's tie-ins yet(although I do have them) so I can't comment on that. But what happens in TEEN TITANS? Similar to the reason Connor did as well as he did in INFINITE CRISIS #6.

But no, what you're doing is taking one character and acting like he's the norm. So what that Connor has done that? Myself and others have pointed to NUMEROUS other examples of much more powerful characters than Connor having little to no effect. Or how a whole team of Top-Tiers were unable to put-down a WEAKENED SBP. Those examples are the norm.

The only way for your argument to be anything but a manipulative lowball for Superboy Prime is if you think this Avengers team>Connor>>>>>Top-Tiers.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Yeah, guys, I think we may be overloading bluewater here; invariably, one of our points will be missed.

So in summary:
1.Delta: these scans are irrelevant, I was referring to BA and all the other top tiers being unable to put SBP down. And the other top tiers are all far above the Avengers, except for Thor and Hulk, and even they can't do much.

2. Pr: If your interpretations of the scans are correct, what reassembled SBP in your opinion? And how?

3: DarkSaint: I'm going to take your interpretation as correct. In which case, you've shown that SBP can reform from being disassembled atom by atom. An alternative opinion is that the Guardian blast, as powerful as it is, was only able to BFR him.

In reference to your comment about SBP being affected by Connor, it could be argued that just being made to bleed doesn't mean he's being affected, at least, in a meaningful way. Otherwise, I can argue that Thing-level strength is all that is needed to affect WWH, when we both know that is not the case. In fact, of the 4 instances you named, only the last, when he was defeated by the Titans (and which we on SBP's side are arguing is PIS) did SBP actually get affected by Connor in a meaningful way.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
But SBP has a healing factor....that's like me bringing up that the Thing makes WWH bleed.....

And Delta, you were right.

Do try and get him to acknowledge the previous arguments while I'm gone. I'm gonna make me some nachos. Well, I'll probably be back and forth while I make them. But yeah FOOD!!! And DELICIOUS FOOD!!!

The only way for your argument to be anything but a manipulative lowball for Superboy Prime is if you think this Avengers team>Connor>>>>>Top-Tiers. [/B]

I DO think the Avengers team is greater than Connor.

As for the top-tiers you mention, you need to stop pretending there isn't a difference between top-tiers FIGHTING as top tiers, and top tiers just being extra bodies.

D.S. himself mentioned, for instance, that Pixie simply making use of her primary ability would have ended the threat of World War Hulk against Xavier. I looked her up. Her power is teleportation. Apparently the ability to move her target anywhere she wants them to go no matter how far. I agreed -- THAT power, used by her, WOULD have ended the threat of World War Hulk.

D.S. also mentioned that you need a roster of top-tiers, something like 20 to take down Black Adam.
I don't agree. I saw Black Adam taken down by Captain Marvel in 1 or 2 panels in JLA/JSA Vice and Virtue. You yourself made the case Superman is enough of a solo worry that Adam opts not to fight Big Blue if it can be avoided. And Captain Marvel, whom you ranked equivalent to Black Adam when not sharing, was taken down in that same JLA/JSA Vice and Virtue story in 1 to 3 panels himself. By Green Arrow. Using Wonder Woman's lasso.

D.S. somehow concludes a roster of 20 heroes is necessary to take Adam. I look at the comic evidence and conclude just one or two people with a SENSIBLE approach take the guy down.
I'm thinking, in the most generous granting I can muster, that World War III must be some awesomely crafted story to obscure this fact, else there's a WHOLE lot more to the story that I'm not being told.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Yeah, guys, I think we may be overloading bluewater here; invariably, one of our points will be missed.

So in summary:
1.Delta: these scans are irrelevant, I was referring to BA and all the other top tiers being unable to put SBP down. And the other top tiers are all far above the Avengers, except for Thor and Hulk, and even they can't do much.

2. Pr: If your interpretations of the scans are correct, what reassembled SBP in your opinion? And how?

3: DarkSaint: I'm going to take your interpretation as correct. In which case, you've shown that SBP can reform from being disassembled atom by atom. An alternative opinion is that the Guardian blast, as powerful as it is, was only able to BFR him.

In reference to your comment about SBP being affected by Connor, it could be argued that just being made to bleed doesn't mean he's being affected, at least, in a meaningful way. Otherwise, I can argue that Thing-level strength is all that is needed to affect WWH, when we both know that is not the case. In fact, of the 4 instances you named, only the last, when he was defeated by the Titans (and which we on SBP's side are arguing is PIS) did SBP actually get affected by Connor in a meaningful way.

Black Adam was taken down by weakness exploitation and a sneak attack. So Marvel snuck up on him, then used the magic word. When they tried that exact same tactic again, in WW3, with BA prepared for them, it took a much larger effort to do so. So not a great example. Maybe you should read it before passing judgement? But then, you already said that you don't read DC...or was it you didn't read Marvel? Its getting hard to keep track, I see points for both sides.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Yeah, guys, I think we may be overloading bluewater here; invariably, one of our points will be missed.

I'm amazed you were even this fair.

YOU try answering as many people in turn as I have the past hour and see if you don't miss anything.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85

1.Delta: these scans are irrelevant, I was referring to BA and all the other top tiers being unable to put SBP down. And the other top tiers are all far above the Avengers, except for Thor and Hulk, and even they can't do much.

"The other top tiers are all far above the Avengers, except for Thor and Hulk".

But Thor and Hulk are precisely the 2 Avengers I've been making the case for. And I absolutely disagree they can't do much against SBP given the number of people, generally regarded BELOW their level, who have had SBP in trouble.

I've already responded about Black Adam specifically, for that matter.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85

2. Pr: If your interpretations of the scans are correct, what reassembled SBP in your opinion? And how?

What reassembled Superman after he was caught by a tesseract?
What made Prime into a Time Trapper in Final Crisis: Legion of 3 Worlds?
What about punching some wall enabled Prime to bring back Jason Todd from the dead?

Not everything in comics has a spelled out explanation.
Not every explanation given in comics makes sense, either, since, on the most basic level, we are talking about things that ultimately do not exist and cannot be made to fully conform to reality.
(There are DEGREES of reality and unreality, though.)

Originally posted by DarkSaint85

3: DarkSaint: I'm going to take your interpretation as correct. In which case, you've shown that SBP can reform from being disassembled atom by atom. An alternative opinion is that the Guardian blast, as powerful as it is, was only able to BFR him.

I have no problem with saying that SBP can reform from being disassembled atom by atom. Hulk, as Maestro, was able to reassemble from being blown into stray molecules, after all.

And I don't see how you're posing an alternative opinion.
Prime was BFRed BY being "removed atom by atom".
Read the comic. It's not something I'M implying.
It's what the Guardian in the book himself SAYS happened to Prime.

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
I DO think the Avengers team is greater than Connor.

As for the top-tiers you mention, you need to stop pretending there isn't a difference between top-tiers FIGHTING as top tiers, and top tiers just being extra bodies.

D.S. himself mentioned, for instance, that Pixie simply making use of her primary ability would have ended the threat of World War Hulk against Xavier. I looked her up. Her power is teleportation. Apparently the ability to move her target anywhere she wants them to go no matter how far. I agreed -- THAT power, used by her, WOULD have ended the threat of World War Hulk.

D.S. also mentioned that you need a roster of top-tiers, something like 20 to take down Black Adam.
I don't agree. I saw Black Adam taken down by Captain Marvel in 1 or 2 panels in JLA/JSA Vice and Virtue. You yourself made the case Superman is enough of a solo worry that Adam opts not to fight Big Blue if it can be avoided. And Captain Marvel, whom you ranked equivalent to Black Adam when not sharing, was taken down in that same JLA/JSA Vice and Virtue story in 1 to 3 panels himself. By Green Arrow. Using Wonder Woman's lasso.

D.S. somehow concludes a roster of 20 heroes is necessary to take Adam. I look at the comic evidence and conclude just one or two people with a SENSIBLE approach take the guy down.
I'm thinking, in the most generous granting I can muster, that World War III must be some awesomely crafted story to obscure this fact, else there's a WHOLE lot more to the story that I'm not being told.

Do you ever realize that you've painted yourself into a corner before someone points it out?

"As for the top-tiers you mention, you need to stop pretending there isn't a difference between top-tiers FIGHTING as top tiers, and top tiers just being extra bodies."

Either you admit that this team does not have the power to put SBP down, or you admit that they'll just be extra bodies and won't have the effect they could have.

Black Adam fought SBP one-on-one. Nothing. Guy Gardner was nearly killed. Krypto was treated like nothing. Superman wasn't able to do anything when they fought one-on-one during SINESTRO CORP WAR. And this is just a handful of examples I could get from skimming through INFINITE CRISIS and a few issues of the SINESTRO CORPS WAR storyline.

But the fact is, you're just trying to dismiss the fact that Superboy Prime is Above Top-Tier. And the argument you're bringing-up of "extra bodies" is bullshit considering I'm talking about when SBP was at less than full power and ganged-up on by multiple Top-Tiers(Superman, Alan Scott, Wonder Woman, Martian Manhunter and a lot more) that is much more impressive than the Avengers line-up here, and weren't "extra bodies," they had him surrounded and pinned down and were beating on him, and still failed to KO him. Not that they were just standing around not doing anything, or not being as effective as they could while he had room to maneuver, thus negating your entire argument. No, they were trying to put him down, he was less than peak, and they still failed miserably.

I'll be waiting for you to change the subject again.

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
I'm amazed you were even this fair.

I'm always fair.

But Thor and Hulk are precisely the 2 Avengers I've been making the case for. And I absolutely disagree they can't do much against SBP given the number of people, generally regarded BELOW their level, who have had SBP in trouble.

And yet, in another instances, those people were unable to do anything to SBP. In fact, the only time they were able to do anything meaningful is.....the end of the Teen Titans. So that's one instance. Which we disregard as an outlier/PIS.

I've already responded about Black Adam specifically, for that matter.

I have no problem with saying that SBP can reform from being disassembled atom by atom. Hulk, as Maestro, was able to reassemble from being blown into stray molecules, after all.

And I don't see how you're posing an alternative opinion.
Prime was BFRed BY being "removed atom by atom".
Read the comic. It's not something I'M implying.
It's what the Guardian in the book himself SAYS happened to Prime.

Cool. So since SBP can reform himself from attacks so powerful that they disassembled him atom by atom, there isn't anything the Avengers can do. Apart from BFR, which we have shown that Thor, in character, really only busts out when he's dead/dying. And Prime in character, in a temper tantrum, would have BFRed them a long time ago, especially if they are stubborn and take a long time to die.

In short, SBP wins. His durability is so high that he can reform himself from any attacks the Avengers throw at him, and long before Thor reaches the point of death, his own in character trollishness would make him BFR the lot of them.

Originally posted by Delta1938

I've seen the full [Nightcrawler attacking and hurting Juggernaut with Candelabra] example before. Aside from Juggy's force field might have been down, I don't recall any context being left-out.

"Aside from Juggy's force field might have been down" is an INSANELY big exception to miss, if that was indeed the case.

Note again either Thor/Juggernaut fight.
Note that, while his forcefield was up, Juggernaut no-sold EVERYTHING thrown at him.

The moment his forcefield was stripped by Thor's anti-mystic cone, however, a single punch from Thor lifted Juggernaut off of his feet, ripped his helmet to shreds and made Juggy moan in pain.

That's not some minor detail.

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=14016354
(Thor #429)

Yeah, but as SBP can reform himself, nothing the Avengers throw at him is putting him down.

As for the one or two people with a sensible approach....BA tried it with Prime, by punching him as hard as he could. That's the sensible approach. No talking, no reasoning with him, no holding back... a pissed off BA punched him in the face. Nothing. Which is almost a carbon copy of WWH's tactic.

Also, see my above post.

In Thor/Juggernaut fight the writer meant that the entire durability of juggernaut is from his FF which varies wildly from other portrayals.

Originally posted by abhilegend
In Thor/Juggernaut fight the writer meant that the entire durability of juggernaut is from his FF which varies wildly from other portrayals.

Doesn't matter; SBP's HF/durability is even higher than that, as he can reassemble himself from atoms now, apparently.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Yeah, but as SBP can reform himself, nothing the Avengers throw at him is putting him down.

As for the one or two people with a sensible approach....BA tried it with Prime, by punching him as hard as he could. That's the sensible approach. No talking, no reasoning with him, no holding back... a pissed off BA punched him in the face. Nothing. Which is almost a carbon copy of WWH's tactic.

Also, see my above post.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Doesn't matter; SBP's HF/durability is even higher than that, as he can reassemble himself from atoms now, apparently.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
I'm always fair.

Merely saying this doesn't make it so, DS.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85

So since SBP can reform himself from attacks so powerful that they disassembled him atom by atom, there isn't anything the Avengers can do.

How does that follow?
DOOMSDAY can reform himself from attacks so powerful that they disassemble him atom by atom.
Does that mean he cannot and has not been stopped in comics?

The Hulk as Maestro reformed from stray molecules. Was he unbeatable?

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
we have shown that Thor, in character, really only busts out [BFR]when he's dead/dying.

You have not shown that. That storyline of Juggernaut versus Thor, New Warriors showing up to intercede, was the first time Juggernaut and Thor ever fought one another, least to my knowledge.
Thor was suffering a seizure tackled Jug, got surprised by Jug's forcefield able to halt and reverse a thrown Mjolnir, and Jug surprising the, again, weakened-by-seizure Thor by grabbing on to Mjolnir as it returned to Thor and clocking him. Warriors intercede until Thor's seizure wears off. Thor assesses Jug's power. Battle ends with Juggernaut being battlefield removed, not by the Warriors trapping him with girders and cement as someone tried to mockingly misconstrue, but by Thor using Mjolnir to send him to another place.

That's Thor versus Juggernaut Fight 1.

Thor versus Juggernaut Fight 2. Thor makes use of Jug's forcefield knowledge. Strips him of it. Miscalculates time, though; Jug lucks out.
Thor reassesses. Battlefield removes Jug a 2nd time.
Not left dead or dying in that instance either.
And the first instance didn't have him weakened by anything Jug did to him either, I'll remind.

You know what? This entire thread has gone on waaaay too long. I refer to page 1, when bluewater (who's really the only Avengers supporter left), said:

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
If Jeph Loeb writes this, Red Hulk wins by absorbing the cocktail of energies (solar, gamma, cosmic, whatever) in Prime's body and beats him within an inch of his life. The heroes may or may not have to fight Rulk themselves at that point. Historically that answer would depend on whether or not Rulk saw the chance to recruit Prime, any allies Prime came with, for some pet government related cause.

If Greg Pak writes this, Rulk is a non-factor, but World War Hulk turns World Breaker after Prime takes out much of the rest of the field. After trading a few punches, Hulk knocks Prime clear into another dimension with one really big punch, and Prime, despite talk of how "next time" he's going to turn that "Big Green Salad-Headed Idiot" inside out, wisely finds ways to avoid the Marvel Universe from that point on.

So in short, the Avengers need Rulk to be able to absorb other energies, and WWH to turn WBH. Everyone else? 'Prime takes out much of the rest of the field.'

Well, Rulk can't absorb other energies anymore. And WWH is used in this thread, not WBH.

Ergo, since by bluewater's OWN ADMISSION, the Avengers had only two avenues to winm both of which are gone...Prime wins.