Superboy Prime vs The Avengers

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
"Aside from Juggy's force field might have been down" is an INSANELY big exception to miss, if that was indeed the case.

Note again either Thor/Juggernaut fight.
Note that, while his forcefield was up, Juggernaut no-sold EVERYTHING thrown at him.

The moment his forcefield was stripped by Thor's anti-mystic cone, however, a single punch from Thor lifted Juggernaut off of his feet, ripped his helmet to shreds and made Juggy moan in pain.

That's not some minor detail.

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=14016354
(Thor #429)

You do realize that, even though Thor effected Juggy more with the field down instead of up, Thor STILL failed to KO Juggernaut, right? Thus making your attempt to counter my argument of Juggernaut being hurt by hot candle wax(or whatever it was) completely impossible, right?

That is, unless you're trying to convince us that melted candle wax>Thor's punches, much like you're trying to convince us that Connor>>>>>Superman/Wonder Woman/Martian Manhunter/Miss Martian/Metamorpho/Supergirl/Wonder Girl/Alan Scott and more combined.

This is the third corner you've painted yourself in like, what? An hour and a half?

Originally posted by Delta1938
You do realize that, even though Thor effected Juggy more with the field down instead of up, Thor STILL failed to KO Juggernaut, right? Thus making your attempt to counter my argument of Juggernaut being hurt by hot candle wax(or whatever it was) completely impossible, right?

That is, unless you're trying to convince us that melted candle wax>Thor's punches, much like you're trying to convince us that Connor>>>>>Superman/Wonder Woman/Martian Manhunter/Miss Martian/Metamorpho/Supergirl/Wonder Girl/Alan Scott and more combined.

This is the third corner you've painted yourself in like, what? An hour and a half?

You would make a master politician, Delta, but it's wasted on me.
"Thor affected Juggy more with the field down instead of up"?

Thor didn't affect Juggy at all in terms of actually hurting him when his forcefield was up.

Of course I realize Thor failed to KO Juggernaut. I'm the one who posted the fight. Thor was under a 60 second time limit before Mjolnir returned to him.

I've never tried to counter the candle wax argument.
As I told you before, I don't know the context of the fight or the explanation given. If it WAS that Juggernaut's force field was dropped, and I DON'T know that such is the case, then it actually makes considerable sense.

As for SBP's durability, you again have no punch coming.

It's a simple either/or.

Either SBP is so tough that Thor and World War Hulk cannot hurt him with their punches or other attacks ...

Or he is not.

If he IS too tough, well ... what do you think I put scans of Classic Juggernaut in here for? They illustrate how Thor has dealt with people strong enough to hurt him, and too tough for him to hurt in turn even a little bit.

To ascribe that to SBP, however, is to ignore what not only the Teen Titans but also the Legion and Sodam Yat, and Krypto, and Connor showed up not once but several times before. To deny that punches and kicks can affect and hurt SBP is to deny what is in the comicbooks themselves.

Meanwhile, coming to the logical conclusion that Thor and Hulk, both stronger than Connor, arguably stronger than Sodam Yat (World War Hulk at least) CAN do damage to Prime, well ... you've got quite a fight on your hands. One I firmly believe this Avengers roster, given people being properly in character, takes a slight majority for.

Check my earlier post.

So, should I bring low feats for avengers too? Like thor being burn by sun? Banner stating that hercules would've stopped hulk had he wanted to? Blue is just being blue again.

Originally posted by abhilegend
So, should I bring low feats for avengers too? Like thor being burn by sun? Banner stating that hercules would've stopped hulk had he wanted to? Blue is just being blue again.

Nah, he already asserted that everyone on the Avengers gets taken out by Prime, and that they would have to rely on A: Loeb writing favourably for Rulk; B: Rulk being able to absorb; or C: Pak writing and D: WWH becoming WBH.

Well, A and C isn't happening here, unless I'm actually Pak and Abhi is Loeb. And B is not happening, and D is not allowed.

So Prime wins.

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
You would make a master politician, Delta, but it's wasted on me.
"Thor affected Juggy more with the field down instead of up"?

Thor didn't affect Juggy at all in terms of actually hurting him when his forcefield was up.

Of course I realize Thor failed to KO Juggernaut. I'm the one who posted the fight. Thor was under a 60 second time limit before Mjolnir returned to him.

I've never tried to counter the candle wax argument.
As I told you before, I don't know the context of the fight or the explanation given. If it WAS that Juggernaut's force field was dropped, and I DON'T know that such is the case, then it actually makes considerable sense.

More like logic is wasted on you. I don't think you even ever got my point about Juggernaut and the candle wax. Especially with your response. You've been bringing-up Connor and Wonder Girl and acting like those are the norm. I bring-up Juggernaut being hurt by candle wax. Whether his force field was down or not is irrelevant. He wasn't KOed by Thor with his field down. So being hurt so much by hot candle wax is a very, very bad showing. Unless you're trying to argue that hot candle wax>>Thor's punches. Which is the only way you could call it anything but a bad showing. And even if there's context involved, it's irrelevant, as I was not using that to try and downplay Juggernaut's durability, but make my point that you're doing that to Superboy Prime.

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
As for SBP's durability, you again have no punch coming.

It's a simple either/or.

Either SBP is so tough that Thor and World War Hulk cannot hurt him with their punches or other attacks ...

Or he is not.

If he IS too tough, well ... what do you think I put scans of Classic Juggernaut in here for? They illustrate how Thor has dealt with people strong enough to hurt him, and too tough for him to hurt in turn even a little bit.

To ascribe that to SBP, however, is to ignore what not only the Teen Titans but also the Legion and Sodam Yat, and Krypto, and Connor showed up not once but several times before. To deny that punches and kicks can affect and hurt SBP is to deny what is in the comicbooks themselves.

Meanwhile, coming to the logical conclusion that Thor and Hulk, both stronger than Connor, arguably stronger than Sodam Yat (World War Hulk at least) CAN do damage to Prime, well ... you've got quite a fight on your hands. One I firmly believe this Avengers roster, given people being properly in character, takes a slight majority for.

Several Top-Tiers, plus some Mid-Tiers(and apparently Alan Scott is supposed to be Above Top-Tier) were beating on SBP, while he was at less than peak power. They couldn't put him down. One could make the argument that the reason he was crying is because he's all emo and couldn't mentally handle what was happening because in his mind he's the real hero, not that he was actually significantly hurt by their battery of him. That group had way more muscle than this group.

And your arguments didn't really counter either my point nor what DS said. Thor was rather sick when he first fought Juggernaut and was getting whooped before he finally resorted to BFRing. So that falls in line with he wouldn't resort to it like you're arguing, assuming he got the chance. He only resorted to using Mjolnir to cancel-out Juggy's force field because he already knew he couldn't win hand-to-hand under conventional circumstances.

You also have failed to acknowledge that your Destroyer BFR example is being argued out of character for Thor(since Thor resorted to that AFTER he came back from being killed the previous issue to his team mates being defeated, on TOP of prior experience with Destroyer).

And you ignore that Black Adam had no effect, Superman didn't do much, individual Green Lanterns weren't able to do anything, and others. No, you ignore all this so you can claim that multiple Top-Tiers were "extra bodies." Which paints yourself into a double corner because this group would act the same way you're arguing those who face SBP do, and Hulk would be even less effective since much of what people bring-up for what he's capable of is effected by "extra bodies" according to your own arguments.

Oh yes, and you ignored my point about Krypto(ya know, small surface area being forced by the strongest muscle in the body), and I should add Sodom Yat being a Daxamite would be Superman-Lite and arguably his punches would be amped his Ion power. In fact, I just looked through their first fight(haven't seen any others) and the ONLY time Ion made SBP bleed was while the Power Ring was glowing and his entire body was surrounded by energy.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
by bluewater's OWN ADMISSION, the Avengers had only two avenues to win both of which are gone...

Where did Blue say the Avengers only had these 2 avenues to win?

Originally posted by Delta1938

you ignored my point about Krypto(ya know, small surface area being forced by the strongest muscle in the body), and I should add Sodom Yat being a Daxamite would be Superman-Lite and arguably his punches would be amped his Ion power. In fact, I just looked through their first fight(haven't seen any others) and the ONLY time Ion made SBP bleed was while the Power Ring was glowing and his entire body was surrounded by energy.

You've brought up about 23 different points today. You want something answered I suggest you highlight it like DS did.

On that note, of things ignored, I recall you promising to check out a thread of mine? Like, several WEEKS ago now?
Not very good about keeping your word are you?

The point about Krypto doesn't strike me as a great one. Not if you're trying to argue SBP is leagues and leagues above the average Kryptonian. What doesn't Krypto break his teeth against SBP if Prime's that tough?

As for Yat, correct me if I'm wrong, but, Lantern rings are powered by will-power, not physical strength. Captain America would probably wield a ring more effectively than he if such is the case, unless you somehow believe the fact of Yat already being physically strong makes the ring effect stronger.

Krypto is Superman in dog form. His teeth have punctured Mongul's skin, and when you think about how many pounds a pressure a dog can bring to bear as opposed to a punch, it's not disparaging Prime to claim that Krypto can hurt him.

Originally posted by Delta1938
you ignore that Black Adam had no effect, Superman didn't do much, individual Green Lanterns weren't able to do anything, and others. No, you ignore all this so you can claim that multiple Top-Tiers were "extra bodies."

You, in turn, ignore that Krypto, Connor, Yat, Supergirl, and the Colossal Boys were all shown beating the crap out of Prime, most of them drawing blood from him.

Originally posted by -Pr-
Krypto is Superman in dog form. His teeth have punctured Mongul's skin, and when you think about how many pounds a pressure a dog can bring to bear as opposed to a punch, it's not disparaging Prime to claim that Krypto can hurt him.

P.R., it's only fair -- answer for me how you interpret

"Prime's body was removed from this universe atom by atom, IF he survived ... he was warped into the multiverse"

WITHOUT coming to the conclusion that Prime was, indeed, taken apart.

Note that this is precisely what teleportation DOES in comics, by the way, and that such was used to defeat Doomsday in one of yesteryear's encounters.

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
P.R., it's only fair -- answer for me how you interpret

"Prime's body was removed from this universe atom by atom, IF he survived ... he was warped into the multiverse"

WITHOUT coming to the conclusion that Prime was, indeed, taken apart.

Note that this is precisely what teleportation DOES in comics, by the way, and that such was used to defeat Doomsday in one of yesteryear's encounters.

The only issue is how he was put back together. When Doomsday was demolecularised, it was done by a machine that could remolecularise too.

What about the blast that hit him is supposed to be able to put him back together?

Or are we, like DS said, just going to assume Prime can heal from being torn apart like that?

Originally posted by -Pr-
The only issue is how he was put back together. When Doomsday was demolecularised, it was done by a machine that could remolecularise too.

What about the blast that hit him is supposed to be able to put him back together?

As I said, I don't know. But we are, again, talking comics, where explanations are not always given. For instance, what about a tesseract enables Superman to be taken apart by one, then magically reassembled? Why doesn't he hemorrhage to death in the meanwhile?
How can he still talk while it's happening?
Some things the writers just don't supply answers to.

(Image is from JLA #78, Volume 1.)

We're not talking about Superman though; we have to take it person by person. We need to be able to establish a baseline from which to garner Prime's durability.

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
Where did Blue say the Avengers only had these 2 avenues to win?

Well, you yourself said Prime takes everyone else out. So what else could WWH do?

Dang, I can't believe I missed this amazing thread. Let me hurry up and put my opinion in here before I miss it again. Hulk solos.

Must be painful being Carver.

Originally posted by carver9
Dang, I can't believe I missed this amazing thread. Let me hurry up and put my opinion in here before I miss it again. Hulk solos.

😕

Originally posted by carver9
Hulk gives him a fight but he would "probably" lose in the end..

Originally posted by carver9
Dang, I can't believe I missed this amazing thread. Let me hurry up and put my opinion in here before I miss it again. Hulk solos.

At some point he became more sure of himself.