Classic ION vs Phoenix Force

I got the scan order mixed up, thanks to Photobuckets backwards way of uploading scans. Read it from bottom to top. v_V;

Originally posted by cdtm
Here's the actual pocket universe creation feat:

With only seconds to act, he takes a sliver of time, that contains an entire universe. Than he picks out two worlds, Earth and Krypton, and alters those worlds so that his "Pocket Universe Superboy" comes into existence.

This isn't "merely" creating a pocket universe.. It's high level reality manipulation.

And he did it easily.

And yet, Parallax easily defeated TT.

Originally posted by cdtm
I got the scan order mixed up, thanks to Photobuckets backwards way of uploading scans. Read it from bottom to top. v_V;

Vis-a-vis, Ion wins. 🙂

Originally posted by abhilegend
Don't forget that the pocket universe had alternate realities too like phantom zone. It wasn't just a single reality.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Just stop. These myths have been debunked many times. I've no time to waste on this. Anyway Ion wins.

LOL, this is gold.

The Phoenix Force guided Galan to a cosmic egg in order for him to become Galactus, just before destroying that universe and creating a new one. There's also the fact that its users can casually repair entire universes while holding them in the palm of their hands. Phoenix Force will win this.

Originally posted by Galan007
Even though TT didn't create the pocket universe (which was a full blown/actual universe, btw) from scratch, he did 'amputate' a fraction of time from the mainstream universe, alter it a bit, then isolate it from the prime continuum. Hugely impressive... Even moreso than Phoenix's top feat(IF you take GS's interpretation at face value.) This is important because we know that he who wields the full power of the Central Battery(Parallax/Ion) >>>> Time Trapper =/> Phoenix.

Vis-a-vis, Ion wins. 🙂

Of course TT's pocket universe would contain the PZ. It is literally a piece of the mainstream universe that TT removed/amputated-- it should theoretically contained every universe/dimension typically linked with the prime universe.

You convinced me. 🙂

Originally posted by TheTyrant
LOL, this is gold.

The Phoenix Force guided Galan to a cosmic egg in order for him to become Galactus, just before destroying that universe and creating a new one. There's also the fact that its users can casually repair entire universes while holding them in the palm of their hands. Phoenix Force will win this.

far as the HTC feat, that's up for debate, far as i'm concerned it appeared to be nothing more than a mere visualization, albeit some would argue otherwise

Originally posted by Mr.SunKing
[b]for starters, the Universes previous sentience was reason why Galan became Galactus

Secondly The phoenix force didn't destroy that universe, it's own destruction was already set in motion once the M'kraan crystal was cracked by the the Dweller in Darkness, which resulted in the next big bang and the creation of the next universe

far as the HTC feat, that's up for debate, far as i'm concerned it appeared to be nothing more than a mere visualization, albeit some would argue otherwise [/B]

Originally posted by CortSether
GalacticStorm, I have a riddle for you, a conundrum, if you will.

What's the difference between you and a mallard with a cold?

One's a sick duck...I can't remember how it ends, but your mother's a whore.

What an idiot.

Anyways, PF wins.

Originally posted by the Darkone
The PF had no connection to the birth of Galactus, mrmaster and others have debunked this many times with panel in its proper context,not splice to prove their point.

Originally posted by Eon Blue
What an idiot.

Anyways, PF wins.

Sean Connery >>>>>>>>>>>>> You.

Anyways, PF loses.

lol wait Darkone, where you agreeing with me? or disagreeing? because we pretty much said the same thing..

Originally posted by TheTyrant

The Phoenix Force guided Galan to a cosmic egg in order for him to become Galactus,
just before destroying that universe and creating a new one.

The PF had absolutely nothing to do with Galan's protection
and/or transformation into Galactus.

Likewise, Phoenix didn't destroy the previous universe either or created the new one.

Originally posted by TheTyrant

There's also the fact that its users can casually repair entire universes
while holding them in the palm of their hands.

The selective scans and personal typed input included in the posts
into what's happening can confuse most and frankly fool many.

I had a chance to drop by, so let me end this one and for all ... again. lol

The greater comedy is that she didn't even hold an actual universe,
it was just a visualization of a "badly wounded orphan universe" (Reality 15104)
which one of the countless possible futures of 616.

The whole scenery is filled with Morrison abstract symbolism.

I once too thought she had an actual reality in her hands (15104)

I now know that isn't the case.

Yea, misinterpretation has her "casually amputating a Timeline from the Multiverse"
or "casually manifesting the component parts of Eternity/Infinity reality 616"

==========================

As for Jean supposedly "casually amputating a Timeline from the Multiverse" ...

==========================

Actually:

Jean extracted Sublime's atoms from the "Here Comes Tomorrow" universe (reality 15104)
and shifted herself into the White Hot Room:

(excerpt from the Official Handbook of the Marvel Universe - "Here Comes Tomorrow" bio)

----------------------------------------------------------------

on panel proof:

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As we can clearly see:

Jean extracts Sublime,
and then shifts into the WHR
this causes the amputation/disinfection of Reality 15104's future because Sublime's "essence" (atoms) are gone from said reality.

As Jean literally stated right there On Panel, as the Handbook literally corroborates.

NOTE:

When Jean says, this is "a coordinate disinfection. My friends were keeping you busy."

It clearly indicates this task (removing Sublime) was NOT easy for her,
besides that it took her 6 pages of Prep, while her friends all died:

[img=http://s4d3.turboimagehost.com/t/11935557_S1.jpg]
[img=http://s4d3.turboimagehost.com/t/11935558_S2.jpg]
[img=http://s4d3.turboimagehost.com/t/11935559_S3.jpg]
[img=http://s4d3.turboimagehost.com/t/11935560_S4.jpg]
[img=http://s4d3.turboimagehost.com/t/11935561_S5.jpg]
[img=http://s4d3.turboimagehost.com/t/11935562_S6.jpg]

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So, it's quite evident, that removing Sublime's atoms from Reality was not easy.

Anyway,
Jean hands over Sublime (symbolically representing the present crisis in 15104)
to the PF consciousness.

The PF consciousness explains that while reality 15104 is still damaged,
it can be healed.

The PF consciousness takes Sublime somewhere, a pink Crystal is displayed, (Mkraan?)
and it's anyone's guess what the hell is going on in there.

Jean is THEN told to "heal wound ... make better future .. grow quick"

Ok. Fine.

But what does that mean? What's she's supposed to do to
heal this damaged reality (15104 - possible 616 future)
in order for it to become better future[/i]?
(meaning, without Sublime ever manifesting in this universe 150 years in the Future)

As we can see, unto this point,
Jean hasn't done anything except for "extracting Sublime's essence (atoms) and shifting into the WHR"

We know it took her 6 Pages of prep,
and even her friends were died in the process to distract Sublime.

Jean literally tells Sublime "this is a coordinated disinfection"

Jean ends up in the WHR with Sublime in her hands and states:
"Intelligent bacterial colony gone rogue (Sublime)"I had to amputate the whole future"

So:

For White Phoenix of the Crown (reality 15104 Jean Grey)
Extracting Sublime's atoms is a difficult task (6 pages of prep)
and extracting Sublime's atoms and removing them from Reality = amputation/disinfection of said reality.

"Telekinetic control of all those atoms at once isn't as easy as it sounds ...
not even for a White Phoenix of the Crown"

swank

----------------------------------------------------------------

The visualization of Reality 15104 (possible 616 future) which appears in her hands,
comes afterwards.

So obviously Jean can't be attributing her comment to a feat she hasn't performed yet:

The ONLY feat she's perform up to this point is still, extracting Sublime's atoms.

Heck, she doesn't even know what the hell is in her hands,
or how it's even materializing in her hands,
yet in pure fabricated fashion she's supposedly manifesting 616 or even 15104 atomically?

What?

To change Scott's mind?

|:

..................................................................................................

Anyway!

..................................................................................................

And what does Jean do?

What's the ONLY other feat Jean performed after the visualization of
the "badly wounded orphan Universe" appeared in her hands?

[img=http://s4d3.turboimagehost.com/t/13067478_PF27.jpg]

hm

What did she do when she said, "Live Scott?"

Jean touched Scott's Past-Self from withIN the WHR,
changed Scott's mind about his life, Emma & the X-Men,
and then Scott's decision Alters Reality 15104.

..................................................................................................

According to Grant Morrison's Editors of the arc:

(excerpt from the Questionnaires addressed to the Writers, last page New X-Men #155)

..................................................................................................

On Panel verification:

In 616, Scott walks away from Emma & the X-Men: (HCT - Reality 15104 is created)

..................................................................................................

Jean reaches back in time (150 years) to 616,
Jean changes Scott's mind so that Reality 15104 will not be created:

..................................................................................................

Scott stays with Emma & the X-Men:

..................................................................................................

Notice the official "Here Comes Tomorrow" Bio literally states ...

... IT WAS Scott's decision that Altered Reality 15104 ...

"Letting go of Cyclops and willing him to live ...

In the modern era of Earth-616 ...

Cyclops took up the responsibility of running the X Institute ...

unknowingly ensuring that at least One apocalyptic Future ...

would Not come to fruition" ...

.................................................................................

And cats got her manipulating the atoms of 616 ...

What?

To change Scott's mind? ... I disagree.

Grant Morrison Editor's themselves told us what happened EXACTLY!!!!

.................................................................................

Again ... According to the Editors of the story:

[img=http://s4d3.turboimagehost.com/t/11935919_PF20.jpg]

"It was Scott's decision to walk away from Emma
that set the apocalyptic events of 'Here Comes Tomorrow' in motion
(Scott inadvertantly Created Reality 15104 withy a decision)

and Jean made sure that Future would never take place"

HOW WILL Jean Do This?

(what I've always said)

"By making him stay with Emma instead" ....

.................................................................

Jean didn't "casually" or "with a thought" do anything to reality 15014 or 616.

Jean (after 6 pages of prep) while Sublime was distracted killing her friends,
was finally able to extract his atoms from Reality.

It was difficult for her, obviously, this is WHY she said:

"Telekinetic control of all those atoms at once isn't as easy as it sounds ...
not even for a White Phoenix of the Crown"

Anyway, this in-turn dis-infected/amputated the Future that Sublime represented.
(depicted via symbolism by Morrison, because we know Sublime
isn't the embodiment/manifestation of a Universe/Future, when Jean asks holding Sublime, "Is this the Future?"

So anyway,
finally, Reality 15104 is still damaged, to fix this she goes back in time (from the WHR)
and changes Scott's mind about leaving the X-Men
and staying with Emma 150 years ago. (HCT takes place 150 years in an alternate possible future)

That's it. Since Scott never left the X-men 150 years ago,
HCT was never created, and thus, it's all good.

thankyou

I wish I had time to address the rest, but this will have to do.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm

Then to top it off you have on panel depictions of the Big Bang
gaining sentience as the Phoenix Force awakens to reality-

I don't wanna accuse anyone of foul play,,
but how many more times are ya gonna claim this?

The bio states, Phoenix was "re-born from the Fires of the Big Bang"

On Panel, in THAT scan ... that's exactly what's depicted:

"This is how I came into being" (exactly, by being born in the Big Bang, like all else)

The Phoenix Force's own official bio states:

"Reborn from the fires of the Big Bang" ...

----------------------------------------------

Yes, yes, so was Galactus, who never really died like Phoenix,
and everything else in the Marvel Universe was created from the same fires,
big deal,
and the Alien Entity created and held the "Spark" that set all that off in his hand,
and proceeded to re-created all of it.

----------------------------------------------

We also know the PF was re-born,
so it was dead when the previous universe collapsed.

In fact, via most updated Canon,
the Phoenix Force came at some point after Space-Time (Eternity/Infinity)

It always did before this as well, the handbook clarifies this, but now it's explicit.

This is from the last issues of Avengers vs X-Men:

Originally posted by GalacticStorm

You can not credibly argue that the Phoenix Force is the Big Bang against explicit evidence.

The real Big Bang, (on panel) occurring!

The real "Spark" that ignites creation (on panel) occurring!

The real embodiment of the Big Bang (on panel) occurring!

......................................................................................

The Big Bang in the flesh (on panel actually depicted)

... not talk, talk, talk, which = to hyperbole.

......................................................................................

Waiting to see the PF being illustrated as the Big Bang.

... zzzzz

===========================================

Don't believe the Phoenix hype yall!

Planetary EMP,
which evidently is enough to shatter the almighty PF! 🙂

......................................................................................

Xorn, killing Jean Grey ... and exploding the actual Phoenix Force itself!

......................................................................................

On Panel:

......................................................................................

Beast remembers:

......................................................................................

Bio:

......................................................................................

(From the Official Marvel Universe Handbook 2005)

"Jean Grey was Killed by an Electromagnetic Pulse,

this shattered the Force into Billions of PIECES"

......................................................................................

(from WC Phoenix - Jean Grey's official 2008 bio)

"Jean opposed faux Magneto but was killed by a lethal EMP
that shattered the Phoenix Force into Billions of pieces"

......................................................................................

This incident involving Xorn & the Phoenix Force
was actually recalled by the embodiment of the Phoenix Force itself in "Endsong"

"I thought I was Dead, in a Billion Billion pieces"

===========================================

===========================================

Heck, the Shiar has made the almighty Phoenix Force it's ***** as well:

Actually they (Shiar) not only forced the PF's resurrection:

But they also shattered the PF itself into pieces partially due to the "Event Horizon"

So canonically, the PF has been shattered TWICE!

1. Into Billions of pieces by an EMP at the hands of Xorn.

2. By a Shiar device as well.

......................................................................................

On Panel proof:

Here's the PF again, being shattered, this time by the Shiar:

In fact, Jean Grey was STILL DEAD, since Xorn's EMP!

Here's the Shiar at the end of the issue,
explaining the "Eleka'an Event Horizon" they used on the PF.
The PF survived by escaping at the last moment,
but it was still injured, dying, meh, literally shattered AGAIN!

......................................................................................

Bio confirmation of said on panel proof:

"The Force was later ripped back to reality by a Shiar device
that forcibly reconstituted it. Injured, the Force fell ....
searched for Jean and, finding her DEAD, resurrected her ..."

===========================================

The PF was manhandled, stomped and nearly killed yet again,
by some alien Ship:

===========================================

......................................................................................

While the Phoenix Force is in it's purest form (no host)

The Ship, rips a hole in Space & Time in front of the Phoenix Force while in 616:

"Out of one marvelous Universe and into another"

......................................................................................

Then, the Ship attacks the actual Phoenix Force,
the SHIP wants to drain the energy of the Force:

"Impaled, Spitted, the Phoenix writhes as it's life is sucked out"

It has never known PAIN of this magnitude, it SCREAMS"

......................................................................................

"It's willfully torturing the Phoenix ..... am I imagining things,
or is it's fire going out, the colors are fading, like it's dying ...

... Truly,
the Phoenix is battling for it's life against the sear of Light that is stripping it's power away[/i]"

......................................................................................

The Phoenix manages to break free for a moment (though near death)

"Wounded the Phoenix falls, to survive, to mend, to heal, it must find a Host"

......................................................................................

The SHIP allows the Phoenix to escape for now,

"to locate it's pilot program before draining entirely"

......................................................................................

This is all 100% canon!

===========================================

(From the Official Marvel Universe Handbook)

"Impaled on a Lance of energy, Wounded, the Force sought a host to protect it as it Healed"

===========================

Heck ... even a few heroes are enough to handle the Force itself!

===========================

A Few members of the X-Men and Ultra Force (six in all)
are sent to battle the actual Phoenix Force (host-less) ... this is the real deal.

.................................

"The assembled Heroes are tired & battered,
the Phoenix (no host) is reborn and fresh"

And they're still holding their own! 👆

The Six heroes beat (physically) the Phoenix Force (no host) into and through the Portal:

The Phoenix Force ends up displaced by Four Billion Years:

==================================

(From the Official Marvel Universe Handbook 2005)

"the Heroes were able to drive the FORCE into another portal,
and it emerged Four Billion years in the Past"

---------------------------------------------------------------

Confirmed Again in the 2007 Handbook Bios: