Classic ION vs Phoenix Force

Originally posted by Batman-Prime
As I learned the PF is the Big Bang, it's Marvels equivalent to Imperiex, who is also the Bitg Bang and holds the power of the Big Bang. ZH Paralax was beyond that and recreated the Multiverse, Timelines and everything on a whim, he had to be stopped by the Spectre who failed to do so. The PF never beat or fought Spectres equivalent in Marvel nor would it be able to imho.

And Kyle as Ion was even beyond Parallax... BTW Kyle containd the BigBang even before he became Ion 😉.

All ABC logic, he beat him, who beat this person, who beat that person so hes stronger. Doesnt work like that 😬

The Big Bang is a manifestation of the PF at the universal level, however as stated on panel and in its handbook entry, the PF is a multiversal entity.

That is why it can empower hosts to amputate timelines with a thought and manipulate the atoms of the entire universe in her palm. If all the PF was was the Big Bang then it wouldnt be able to empower one of its many hosts to do such a feat because by manipulating all the energy and matter of reality in her palm, Jean was channeling more energy than contained within said reality.

Once again-

Total control of matter, manipulating the universe down to its component matter

Originally posted by abhilegend
Phoenix isn't big bang, it was born from that. Yeah, just an Ion amped kyle contained a big bang and he was just tapping the Ion force sub-consciously

http://i78.photobucket.com/albums/j105/Rewmac/Supermanv2173pg14.jpg

Unlike phoenix who has just statements, imperiex IS the big bang.

Based on?

Reed Richards the top scientific mind on Marvel Earth states that the Phoenix Force is the Big Bang, the very energies of creation

Tony Stark in the current ongoing Avengers Vs X-men series states that he is using particle accelerators to simulate the Big Bang in an effort to understand how to kill the Phoenix Force who he equates to "universal expansion" 😖hifty:

You have the Phoenix Force saying it is all that is and that it is in everything that live and that stars (the largest concentrations of Big Bang matter in the universe) derive from her she is their mother.

If the PF was just a being born in the Big Bang event that wouldnt be the case.

Further confirmation is when the Phoenix Force is being torn from its physical anchor reality, the stars in existence start to fade and it is stated that with no Phoenix Force there would be a void. A void is what exists before the Big Bang fills it with energy and matter

Then to top it off you have on panel depictions of the Big Bang gaining sentience as the Phoenix Force awakens to reality-

On panel statements explicitly stating Phoenix is the Big Bang, on panel depictions of it being the sentience of the Big Bang, on panel demonstrations of reality being sustained by it.

You can not credibly argue that the Phoenix Force is the Big Bang against explicit evidence.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Based on?

Reed Richards the top scientific mind on Marvel Earth states that the Phoenix Force is the Big Bang, the very energies of creation

Tony Stark in the current ongoing Avengers Vs X-men series states that he is using particle accelerators to simulate the Big Bang in an effort to understand how to kill the Phoenix Force who he equates to "universal expansion" 😖hifty:

You have the Phoenix Force saying it is all that is and that it is in everything that live and that stars (the largest concentrations of Big Bang matter in the universe) derive from her she is their mother.

If the PF was just a being born in the Big Bang event that wouldnt be the case.

Further confirmation is when the Phoenix Force is being torn from its physical anchor reality, the stars in existence start to fade and it is stated that with no Phoenix Force there would be a void. A void is what exists before the Big Bang fills it with energy and matter

Then to top it off you have on panel depictions of the Big Bang gaining sentience as the Phoenix Force awakens to reality-

On panel statements explicitly stating Phoenix is the Big Bang, on panel depictions of it being the sentience of the Big Bang, on panel demonstrations of reality being sustained by it.

You can not credibly argue that the Phoenix Force is the Big Bang against explicit evidence.

Also Reed hasn't been the top earth based scientist for years hes just a schmuk now

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Again youre not getting it.

Jean Grey with a thought destroyed an entire timeline with a thought and it happened just like that. Ion has never done this, Parallax has never done this, demonstrate another character doing this?

Its not just a case of doing the act. Its how it was done. The comparative ease and speed.

No big song and dance that went on for most of an issue. A single panel, a thought, it was done.

Different power level.

And another point that doesnt seem to be sinking in is that that was just Jean Grey one of the many hosts the PF empowers across the multiverse.

This threads about the Phoenix Force. Ion gets blown away.

Originally posted by abhilegend
That was extant, someone powered by parallax destroying timelines in one panel. Jean grey IS phoenix as Death described and WHR showed up. Other hosts gets killed by Xorn. Like I said if its the best phoenix can do then this is a spite thread. Ion stomps phoenix.

Originally posted by TheGodKiller
It was Jean who got killed by Xorn(which subsequently shattered the Force into billions of pieces) .

Originally posted by abhilegend
Yeah, I forgot about that. A shiar laser did it too. Not much of a big bang, is it?

^^^

Originally posted by abhilegend
Just stop. These myths have been debunked many times. I've no time to waste on this. Anyway Ion wins.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
All ABC logic, he beat him, who beat this person, who beat that person so hes stronger. Doesnt work like that 😬

The Big Bang is a manifestation of the PF at the universal level, however as stated on panel and in its handbook entry, the PF is a multiversal entity.

That is why it can empower hosts to amputate timelines with a thought and manipulate the atoms of the entire universe in her palm. If all the PF was was the Big Bang then it wouldnt be able to empower one of its many hosts to do such a feat because by manipulating all the energy and matter of reality in her palm, Jean was channeling more energy than contained within said reality.

Once again-

Total control of matter, manipulating the universe down to its component matter

Translation: HEEEERP DEERP

Ion

Originally posted by abhilegend
Just stop. These myths have been debunked many times. I've no time to waste on this. Anyway Ion wins.

Debunked by who?

You cannot debunk an explicit on panel statement or depiction.

If the statements were ambiguous, if they were open to interpretation then you'd have a point.

You debunk them. Why dont you analyse each scan and tell us all how each one does not say exactly what it does 😬

This should be interesting 🙂

Originally posted by TheGodKiller
It never was the Big Bang to begin with . That debate has been resolved countless times in countless threads prior . It simply isn't worth discussing anymore .

Nope.

An opinion that is more aligned to your own was reposted again and again and again regardless of what proof i put forward.

That is not debunking anything.

That is not proving me wrong.

To do so you would have to analyze the scenes posted and state exactly how they are not giving evidence or making explicit statements that the PF is the Big Bang.
Thats never been done.

Instead scans of the PFs firebird avatar or low showings by human hosts are posted along with irrelevant comments pertaining to how such showings dont reflect a being who's supposed to be the Big Bang 🙄

A scan by a reputable character saying that the Phoenix Force is the Big Bang is not ambiguous and is not open to interpretation.

A scan showing stars fading from existence as its tie to its host is being disrupted is a clear demonstration that the stars of the universe derive from the Phoenix Force. (Stars being the biggest concentrations of Big Bang matter in reality)

In the same occurrence a statement from Death and watcher stating clearly that with no Phoenix Force there is a void (what exists before the Big Bang) is a clear depiction of the Phoenix Force being the energies of creation.

You have nothing. 😬

Originally posted by abhilegend
That was extant, someone powered by parallax destroying timelines in one panel. Jean grey IS phoenix as Death described and WHR showed up. Other hosts gets killed by Xorn. Like I said if its the best phoenix can do then this is a spite thread. Ion stomps phoenix.

Again. Ignoring the clear point i made despite the extensive breakdown i provided to allow you to comprehend.

Its not just a case of Parallax or Extant being able to destroy timelines as well, its the comparative ease and speed in which they do it that demonstrates their comparative power.

Jean does it casually with a thought in a single panel as if its nothing. Standard fare.

The others you mention made a big song and dance about it and to execute the feat it took far longer, pages, if not the most part of an issue 😬

A clear gulf in power.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm

Tony Stark in the current ongoing Avengers Vs X-men series states that he is using particle accelerators to simulate the Big Bang in an effort to understand how to kill the Phoenix Force who he equates to "universal expansion" 😖hifty:

Good catch. 👆
That's concrete evidence that the PF is an entity born from the manifestation (and is the essence) of the big bang energies which produced the abstracts.

Tony was right on point, being that he was able to affect it somewhat by separating it into 5 components although that wasn't the desired result.

Even though we've still yet to see it happen on panel, I've always been of the opinion that the PF is a force of creation(a big bang, if you will.) However, the PF certainly isn't the only force in Marvel that manifests big bangs. Other characters such as: Entropy, the Alien Entity, the Beyonder and Sise-Neg(off the top of my head) have generated big bangs/universes on panel-- and several other characters have been stated to have power of that magnitude as well.

As far as I'm concerned, the PF is just one of several characters with that power/potential. She certainly isn't special in that regard.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm

Jean does it casually with a thought in a single panel as if its nothing. Standard fare. .

The others you mention made a big song and dance about it and to execute the feat it took far longer, pages, if not the most part of an issue

Scans of Phoenix actually destroying the timeline?

I saw a scan of her mentioning destroying it after the fact, but do we actually see her do it?

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Again. Ignoring the clear point i made despite the extensive breakdown i provided to allow you to comprehend.

Its not just a case of Parallax or Extant being able to destroy timelines as well, its the comparative ease and speed in which they do it that demonstrates their comparative power.

Jean does it casually with a thought in a single panel as if its nothing. Standard fare.

The others you mention made a big song and dance about it and to execute the feat it took far longer, pages, if not the most part of an issue 😬

A clear gulf in power.

Here's the actual pocket universe creation feat:

With only seconds to act, he takes a sliver of time, that contains an entire universe. Than he picks out two worlds, Earth and Krypton, and alters those worlds so that his "Pocket Universe Superboy" comes into existence.

This isn't "merely" creating a pocket universe.. It's high level reality manipulation.

And he did it easily.

And yet, Parallax easily defeated TT.

Classic Ion>> Classic Parallax>> PF