Originally posted by Rookwood
Wrong.Maybe you need to go back and watch AotC.
The reason Yoda did not attack Dooku telekinetically, was because they had already had a contest of Force abilities, and more or less stalemated there.
Yoda clearly held back on Dooku during their force contest. The only force attack Yoda used against Dooku was Dooku's own redirected lightning (probably knowing Dooku knew how to block it or at least evade it). So it's safe to say that Yoda was also holding back during their saber contest. Yoda only wanted to capture Dooku, not kill him, and he also had feelings for Dooku.
Originally posted by Rookwood
"It is obvious this contest cannot be decided by our knowledge of the Force, but by our skill with the lightsaber."
[B]―Dooku[/B]
facepalm
Originally posted by Rookwood
And Anakin's. Thanks for helping my case. 🙂
lol, why would Yoda only target Anakin's arms? You said the duel was to the death, so I'm assuming Yoda would not hold back striking a fatal blow if he sees an opening.
Originally posted by Rookwood
These kind of pics are only funny if you're not making a fool of yourself.
Originally posted by Rookwood
Go watch RotS again, buddy.Go to the Anakin/Dooku duel - slow down and freeze-frame the seconds before Anakin chops off Dooku's hands. Watch what he does there.
Come back and tell me what happens in the seconds before. 😉
He specifically out-skilled him.
Anakin did not out-skill him. Recovering from the strength of Anakin's saber strikes is what slowed Dooku down, which enabled Anakin to do his little fancy move on him. Being "in the zone" did not give Anakin more skill.
Originally posted by Rookwood
Perhaps not, but it likely makes RotS Anakin Zonakin equal to AotC Yoda in sabers.
You were implying that "Zonakin" was AOTC Yoda's superior. Either way you're not making a convincing argument.
Originally posted by Rookwood
RotS Yoda did that - not AotC Yoda - who Sidious would very likely defeat in sabers.
You do realize that Yoda had been a practicing Jedi for centuries by the time of AOTC, right? I find it very unlikely that his talents increased that dramatically within three more years (they didn't). You're being silly, right?
Originally posted by Rookwood
First, Windu is Dooku's superior
No, he is not. And even if he is, the fact that Sidious nearly overpowered him right after dropping his companions in seconds, would pretty much help my argument more than yours, don't you think? Think about it.
Originally posted by Rookwood
Zonakin could handle it.
The advantage is still in Yoda's favor.
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Yoda clearly held back on Dooku during their force contest. The only force attack Yoda used against Dooku was Dooku's own redirected lightning (probably knowing Dooku knew how to block it or at least evade it). So it's safe to say that Yoda was also holding back during their saber contest. Yoda only wanted to capture Dooku, not kill him, and he also had feelings for Dooku.
He clearly didn't.
Yoda being able to pacify Dooku with a lightsaber would be difficult - he would have to land a cut that would badly injure or mutilate the Count.
With the Force on the other hand, he has a decent chance (if he's capable of actually doing this) of knocking Dooku out with a small piece of debris, or even forcing him onto the ground and holding him there for capture.
He wasn't capable of pacifying Dooku at all with TK - they were more or less evenly-matched in the Force as Dooku would later note.
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
facepalm
The light stings, Hmm? 🙂
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
lol, why would Yoda only target Anakin's arms? You said the duel was to the death, so I'm assuming Yoda would not hold back striking a fatal blow if he sees an opening.
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Second, Yoda does not have the reach that Anakin does, which would make it harder for Yoda to aim for Dooku's arms.
If he doesn't have the reach to target the long extremities of either Dooku or Anakin, then is he supposed to reach a target such as the torso, which is even further away?
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
These kind of pics are only funny if you're not making a fool of yourself.
The only one here appearing blatantly stupid is you. 🙄
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Anakin did not out-skill him. Recovering from the strength of Anakin's saber strikes is what slowed Dooku down, which enabled Anakin to do his little fancy move on him. Being "in the zone" did not give Anakin more skill.
You either have skill or you don't - and by this point in time, having clarity in the Force wouldn't give Anakin sudden access to techniques he never knew before.
No, it's obvious he had developed in skill - and it was a mix of Anakin's battering Dooku's limbs, his technique to grab Dooku's wrists, pull them forward - and have the speed to instantly bring his saber down, around and through the other man's extremities, to win the duel.
Strength, skill and speed.
That, he didn't have last time to defeat the powerful Count. But through skill progression AKA significant improvement, he was later able to.
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
You were implying that "Zonakin" was AOTC Yoda's superior. Either way you're not making a convincing argument.
Then you're slow to catch on.
Zonakin is at least equal to AotC Yoda in sabers - AotC Yoda could defeat AotC Dooku - but not quickly and with some difficulty.
One on one - RotS Anakin was able to defeat a superior version of Dooku in likely the same amount of time.
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
You do realize that Yoda had been a practicing Jedi for centuries by the time of AOTC, right? I find it very unlikely that his talents increased that dramatically within three more years (they didn't). I'm being silly, right?
Mhm.
If you mean by dramatically that he grew significantly more skilled - then yes, he did.
All the Jedi did.
Yoda had been a practicing Jedi for centuries and so he was still skilled - but using that logic, then you're implying TPM Yoda could still defeat RotS Sidious?
Perhaps you and a few others need to learn the concept of Skill Progression.
You can learn a lot and vital things in a few years, when you're pressed to.
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
No, he is not. And even if he is, the fact that Sidious nearly overpowered him right after dropping his companions in seconds, would pretty much help my argument more than yours, don't you think? Think about it.
No - you think about it.
Windu dropped Sidious, when Dooku knew he couldn't.
Period. That tells you everything you need to know.
Think about it.
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
The advantage is still in Yoda's favor.
Only in offensive Force-usage - which is not being used here.
Originally posted by Rookwood
Indeed, I thought he was talking about some crap from the CGI series at first.And that CGI series still belongs in a Nick Jr television line-up.
And what you think the CWMini series was intended mainly for an adult audience??
The CGI series has some very political episodes which adults will appreciate more, and some much darker episodes which are more family orientated episodes like the SW films themselves.
Either way, your opinion of the show doesn't matter one bit. Many people hate the Prequels. That doesn't change their level of canonicity.
Originally posted by Rookwood
Alright, now what about DARTH POWERLESS?
What? You really wana try me?? I fly like a butterfly, sting like a bee.
Seriously I welcome more people joining these lifeless boards. It seems like nowadays it's either me debating Nephyts or me debating Sidious66. Sometimes Battlemaster comes in and starts a KOTOR era VS PT/OT era debate.
So new is welcomed.
But just wasn't expecting any new ones to be crazy people.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
And what you think the CWMini series was intended mainly for an adult audience??
The CGI series has some very political episodes which adults will appreciate more, and some much darker episodes which are more family orientated episodes like the SW films themselves.
Either way, your opinion of the show doesn't matter one bit. Many people hate the Prequels. That doesn't change their level of canonicity.
That's good.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
What? You really wana try me?? I fly like a butterfly, sting like a bee.
Seriously I welcome more people joining these lifeless boards. But just wasn't expecting crazy people.
Yeah. I'm still waiting for your rebuttal.
Originally posted by Rookwood
That's good.
Great. So stop using the excuse "that so and so only happened in the stupid CGI kids show."
Because that's not an argument for anything except against Lucas's modern day creativity.
Originally posted by Rookwood
Yeah. I'm still waiting for your rebuttal.
I've already given it:
Originally posted by DARTH POWERNeither a 900 year old Jedi Master nor a Sith Lord in his 80's are going to make any kind of significant improvement in 3 years.
Your also making an assumption that there's a significant difference between Sidious and Dooku in a Pure Fencing contest.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Great. So stop using the excuse "that so and so only happened in the stupid CGI kids show."
Because that's not an argument for anything except against Lucas's modern day creativity.
I've already given it:
My rebuttal post was longer than that; still waiting.
Otherwise I'll take it as a concession of your defeat.
Fine, I'll waste my time with you:
Originally posted by Rookwood
Significantly better. 😉If by "significant" you mean allowing you to defeat your enemies/rivals, then yes, yes they did. 🙂
There's always room for improvement.
Nope Yoda has completely mastered every Lightsaber form. How could he possibly improve on that?
He also spent over 8 centuries connecting with the force. How exactly is he suddenly going to radically improve in the space of 3 years at a time when the dark side is clouding the light side of the force?? At a time when Mace Windu says to Yoda "I think it's time we informed the senate that our ability to use the force has diminshed.."(AOTC). Answer- He's not, and he didn't.
Count Dooku also spent 7 decades perfecting his pure fencing form (Makashi) to it's very Apex. How is he suddenly going to radically improve on that in 3 years??
Count Dooku even as a Jedi was said by Yoda to have already been "The Temple's strongest student.." and "Most learned in the ways of the Force.." (Dark Rendezvous)
So how was he going to improve on that?? Just one way, by increasing in power by turning to the dark side. And that was a good 10 years before AOTC. So no, he didn't improve either between AOTC and ROTS.
Originally posted by Rookwood
Dooku didn't feel he was skilled enough to challenge Sidious in combat. Period.
And how does Dooku's "feelings" prove that Sidious was "significantly" better than Dooku in a Pure fencing match?? Did we even see them have a Saber sparring match?? Have we ever even heard of them having a Saber sparring match?? Nope.
Besides Sidious is significantly more powerful than Dooku in the Force (obviously) as is Yoda. If on top of that Sidious is even a small fraction better than Dooku in pure fencing, then yes Dooku would understandably not want to challenge him.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Fine, I'll waste my time with you:
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Nope Yoda has completely mastered every Lightsaber form. How could he possibly improve on that?
He also spent over 8 centuries connecting with the force. How exactly is he suddenly going to radically improve in the space of 3 years at a time when the dark side is clouding the light side of the force?? At a time when Mace Windu says to Yoda "I think it's time we informed the senate that our ability to use the force has diminshed.."(AOTC). Answer- He's not, and he didn't.
Wrong, and wrong.
One can study something for years and still learn new things, or they may simply get rusty and need to greatly focus their skills again.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Count Dooku also spent 7 decades perfecting his pure fencing form (Makashi) to it's very Apex. How is he suddenly going to radically improve on that in 3 years??
That would depend on how much his skills were forced to progress and/or sharpen during the course of the conflicts.
From what I noticed, because Dooku usually took the role of strategist, rather than leading charges, or going into missions behind enemy lines - his skill progression may have suffered compared to the others.
Also adding to the fact that comparatively to other Jedi, he didn't go through as many trials by fire, so to speak.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Count Dooku even as a Jedi was said by Yoda to have already been "The Temple's strongest student.." and "Most learned in the ways of the Force.." (Dark Rendezvous)
So how was he going to improve on that?? Just one way, by increasing in power by turning to the dark side. And that was a good 10 years before AOTC. So no, he didn't improve either between AOTC and ROTS.
As said before, no - he would have likely been trialed and tested the least - having his skills less focused or sharpened by the same experiences that improved many of the other Jedi.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
And how does Dooku's "feelings" prove that Sidious was "significantly" better than Dooku in a Pure fencing match?? Did we even see them have a Saber sparring match?? Have we ever even heard of them having a Saber sparring match?? Nope.
A Jedi must trust in their feelings; instinct. 🙂 Or haven't you learned that?
It doesn't matter if we've never seen them spar or not. Dooku noted a few times in other materials I don't have access to at the moment, that he knew he was no match for Sidious through the Force or otherwise.
He knew no matter the circumstance, he would simply come up short.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Besides Sidious is significantly more powerful than Dooku in the Force (obviously) as is Yoda. If on top of that Sidious is even a small fraction better than Dooku in pure fencing, then yes Dooku would understandably not want to challenge him.
Yes, and that's obviously the case.
Gee, ya think? Geeze, you're an idiot.
Anyone who tries to make the argument that most of the main Jedi/Sith weren't significantly better by the end of the Clone Wars is seriously a Moron.
Am I supposed to believe that Mace Windu during The Phantom Menace can still defeat Darth Sidious?
Or that Luke Skywalker from A New Hope is just as skilled as he was in Return of the Jedi?
Characters grow more skilled - even if they've mastered their particular artforms - there is always more room to grow, limited only by an individual's brainpower or the constraints of their physical form.
In Yoda's case, and Dooku's as well, it's possible to become rusty over time - and then once you're plunged into a time of war, your skills and abilities focus or grow as needed.
Again, anyone not aware of this, or needing to be reminded of it like it's some sort of obscure fact, is a Moron.
Yeah great rant except you never made the point that Yoda was rusty in AOTC.
Nope, you just made the point that even at his age he's constantly improving in Sabers and in the Force:
Originally posted by juggerman
Based on what? What shows Yoda getting more powerful?
Originally posted by Rookwood
Yoda goes from having trouble lifting a steel guider, to being able to manhandle a pair of CIS Landing-craft, for one thing.
You also implied TPM Yoda would not stand a chance against ROTS Sidious, simply because it was Yoda at an earlier point in time:
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66You do realize that Yoda had been a practicing Jedi for centuries by the time of AOTC, right? I find it very unlikely that his talents increased that dramatically within three more years (they didn't). You're being silly, right?
Originally posted by Rookwoodbut using that logic, then you're implying TPM Yoda could still defeat RotS Sidious?
Well guess what Einstein? If Yoda wasn't in form at the time of AOTC because his skills were rusty at the time, then he may well have been a better Saber duelist at the time of TPM.