Originally posted by RookwoodA Jedi must trust in their feelings; instinct. 🙂 Or haven't you learned that?
Yes in their instincts, not on their fear. Dooku wasn't a Jedi at the time.
And besides I've already pointed out Sidious WAS more powerful in the force. And would likely best Dooku in a fencing match as well. What I was arguing is that you have no proof that there was a significant difference between the two when it came to pure fencing.
Originally posted by Rookwood
It doesn't matter if we've never seen them spar or not. Dooku noted a few times in other materials I don't have access to at the moment, that he knew he was no match for Sidious through the Force or otherwise.He knew no matter the circumstance, he would simply come up short.
And how exactly did he know that if they had never sparred. Did he just assume because Sidious force powers were greater??
If so it means nothing. Assumptions are not fact. Not by a long shot.
Oh and I challenge you to find me the quote that says Dooku knew he was absolutely no match for Sidious in a pure fencing contest.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Yeah great rant except you never made the point that Yoda was rusty in AOTC.Nope, you just made the point that even at his age he's constantly improving in Sabers and in the Force:
Yeah, and when did you think he was manhandling those CIS Landing craft, Dumbass?
Durr, dur, dur! During the Clone Wars - you know, that time you said Yoda never got better?
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
You also implied TPM Yoda would not stand a chance against ROTS Sidious, simply because it was Yoda at an earlier point in time:Well guess what Einstein? If Yoda wasn't in form at the time of AOTC because his skills were rusty at the time, then he may well have been a better Saber duelist at the time of TPM.
Oh yeah, like that makes a lot of sense. 🙄
You should quit and spare yourself the agony of any further embarrassment. 😆
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Yes in their instincts, not on their fear. Dooku wasn't a Jedi at the time.
Even a Sith Lord is taught to pay attention to his fear. 🙂
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
And besides I've already pointed out Sidious WAS more powerful in the force. And would likely best Dooku in a fencing match as well. What I was arguing is that you have no proof that there was a significant difference between the two when it came to pure fencing.
Dooku's doubts are all I need. If he daren't challenge the Dark Lord in any arena - then I believe him.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
And how exactly did he know that if they had never sparred. Did he just assume because Sidious force powers were greater??
If so it means nothing. Assumptions are not fact. Not by a long shot.
Well, that's the first thing you've been correct about all week - mere assumptions are not fact.
But, Count Dooku's own personal doubts, like those he had in Dark Rendezvous are good enough for me - our assumptions (unless weighted with common sense) don't carry merit - but Count Dooku's personal viewpoints, do.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Oh and I challenge you to find me the quote that says Dooku knew he was absolutely no match for Sidious in a pure fencing contest.
I've heard of and come across plenty of instances in books and on the net of Dooku fearing Sidious - but none that says Dooku thought he had any chance of defeating his Master.
I challenge you to find me a quote that says Dooku knew he could defeat Sidious, fencing - or otherwise. 🙂
If you could find such a quote, not only would it be impressive - you would reaffirm some semblance of intelligence in my eyes.
So, is there such a quote at all?
Originally posted by Rookwood
Yeah, and when did you think he was manhandling those CIS Landing craft, Dumbass?Durr, dur, dur! During the Clone Wars - you know, that time you said Yoda never got better?
[/IMG]
You already have your response:
Originally posted by DARTH POWERHe also spent over 8 centuries connecting with the force. How exactly is he suddenly going to radically improve in the space of 3 years at a time when the dark side is clouding the light side of the force?? At a time when Mace Windu says to Yoda "I think it's time we informed the senate that our ability to use the force has diminshed.."(AOTC). Answer- He's not, and he didn't.
Anyway so what you think he suddenly became like 10 times more powerful in the force during the CW??
You really can't be that dense?! It's not possible!
Oh yeah, like that makes a lot of sense. 🙄
Originally posted by Rookwood
You should quit and spare yourself the agony of any further embarrassment. 😆
No rebuttal then obviously.
Originally posted by Rookwood
Dooku's doubts are all I need. If he daren't challenge the Dark Lord in any arena - then I believe him.
Neither Dooku's fears nor your beliefs in his fears count for anything.
Originally posted by Rookwood
Well, that's the first thing you've been correct about all week - mere assumptions are not fact.But, Count Dooku's own personal doubts, like those he had in Dark Rendezvous are good enough for me - our assumptions (unless weighted with common sense) don't carry merit - but Count Dooku's personal viewpoints, do.
I've heard of and come across plenty of instances in books and on the net of Dooku fearing Sidious - but none that says Dooku thought he had any chance of defeating his Master.
I challenge you to find me a quote that says Dooku knew he could defeat Sidious, fencing - or otherwise. 🙂
If you could find such a quote, not only would it be impressive - you would reaffirm some semblance of intelligence in my eyes.
So, is there such a quote at all?
Urm what? Your the one claiming there's a huge difference between them in a Pure fencing contest. So your the one who needs to provide proof of that.
I have proof that he probably would be in Sidious's league in Sabers (or close to it) considering the fight he gave Yoda, and the battering Yoda gave Sidious (as per the script).
And since when do Dooku's own thoughts mean shit?? He thinks he's Yoda's equal and he thinks he has a shot at beating Yoda, who proved himself Sidious's superior.
But hey if we're going by thoughts I have a much more reliable one for you which applies directly to Saber fighting. It's Yoda's thoughts in Dark Rendezvous where he believes that on Neutral Ground Dooku and Mace Windu are equal in Saber fighting. You know the same Windu who beat Sidious.
So you believe Count Dooku's fears, whilst I'll believe Yoda's more rational thoughts. You believe in your own conclusions whilst I'll believe On-Screen showings and quotes relating directly to Saber combat.
Originally posted by Rookwood
I'll give you some time to track down a quote, and then I'll return in a few days.We'll see how well you do.
Good luck. 😉
As you can see I have plenty of proof to support my stance, whilst you have nothing but Dooku's "fears," your own opinions and speculation.
I hardly needed a few days to show that 😄
The fail is STRONG in this thread. Saying Yoda was better from AOTC to ROTS is about as LULZ worthy opinion as I can think of. We don't need to move the goalposts to figure out the obvious. Yoda didn't want to kill Dooku.. but wanted to kill Sidious. Yoda still EVEN NOT GOING ALL OUT got the better of Dooku, and I see no reason NONE tha he wouldn't get the better of ANY version of Anakin.
Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
The fail is STRONG in this thread. Saying Yoda was better from AOTC to ROTS is about as LULZ worthy opinion as I can think of. We don't need to move the goalposts to figure out the obvious. Yoda didn't want to kill Dooku.. but wanted to kill Sidious. Yoda still EVEN NOT GOING ALL OUT got the better of Dooku,
Just because Yoda wasn't going for the kill against Dooku doesn't mean we should just write Dooku off as nothing next to him.
Mace didn't go for the kill against Sidious at first, and Anakin wasn't initially aiming to kill Dooku either.
So we should give Dooku credit where he deserves it. He did well against Yoda in the Saber fight but was ultimately not a match for his former master. But Yoda pretty much outclassed Sidious in Sabers anyway.
Yes there was little to no change in Yoda's power between AOTC and ROTS.
Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
and I see no reason NONE tha he wouldn't get the better of ANY version of Anakin.
Originally posted by -kV-B) Yoda defeats Zonakin after a tough fight
Think people are underestimating Zone Anakin.
In the CW when Anakin unleashed his full power he was able to control The Son and Daughter, each of whom were said to be more powerful than any Jedi.
Add to that his complete trouncing of Count Dooku in Sabers, and I would give the Saber fight to Zone Anakin here. He may even have a chance at the all out Imho.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Add to that his complete trouncing of Count Dooku in Sabers, and I would give the Saber fight to Zone Anakin here. He may even have a chance at the all out Imho.
According to the expanded version of the duel descibed in the RotS novel, Dooku wasn't exactly trounced. He ran out of Force reserve by toying with Obi-Wan and Skywalker, not knowing that they were holding back quite a bit (ala Ali's "rope-a-dope" against Foreman). Dooku wasn't there to kill Anakin at first. Had he tried to kill Anakin at the onset of the duel, I don't doubt that he would have. The end of the duel between Dooku and Anakin clearly describes Dooku as having exhausted his Force reserves by prolonging the battle needlessly. It's really all about timing. Anakin unleashed his potential at the same time that Dooku exhausted his. I don't see Anakin / Zonakin defeating a Count Dooku (especially in a stomp) that is there to kill him form the get-go.
^ I don't know JT.. After seeing all their fights in the CW..
Last fight they had Anakin came very close to snapping Dooku's neck. And even after Dooku's full on TK + FL attack which seemed to give Dooku the fight, Anakin still wasn't Ko'd and arguably could have kept on fighting.
None of Dooku's solely TK attacks did much to Anakin at all, just push him back, and Skywalker took them all relatively unharmed.
As for the running out of Force reserves in the ROTS novel, didn't he just revitalize himself? I'm curious where it said he was losing because he couldn't revitalize himself again.
All I remember the problem being was Skywalker just being too powerful for him.
And any force reserves he did lose it was all from Anakin's power blows, and had very little to do with Obi-Wan, as we're told meeting Each Strike of Anakin's was costing him more energy than it took to dispose of Obi-Wan. That's a lot of Obi-Wan disposals.
But I do see your point. The way I see it, since Skywalker gets stronger as the fight goes on, then IF Dooku goes completely All Out with the Force right from the get-go, then and only then would he have a chance at defeating ROTS Jedi Anakin.
But it has to be before he gets in "The Zone" Imho. I mean when defending Each Strike from Anakin is harder work than disposing of Obi-Wan then that kind of shows just how powerful Zone Anakin was.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Just because Yoda wasn't going for the kill against Dooku doesn't mean we should just write Dooku off as nothing next to him.Mace didn't go for the kill against Sidious at first, and Anakin wasn't initially aiming to kill Dooku either.
So we should give Dooku credit where he deserves it. He did well against Yoda in the Saber fight but was ultimately not a match for his former master. But Yoda pretty much outclassed Sidious in Sabers anyway.
Yes there was little to no change in Yoda's power between AOTC and ROTS.
Think people are underestimating Zone Anakin.
In the CW when Anakin unleashed his full power he was able to control The Son and Daughter, each of whom were said to be more powerful than any Jedi.
Add to that his complete trouncing of Count Dooku in Sabers, and I would give the Saber fight to Zone Anakin here. He may even have a chance at the all out Imho.
Dooku wasn't going for the kill against Anakin at first, and in fact, was toying with BOTH Anakin and Kenobi In the process of doing so... weakened him, and along with Anakin reaching his zone... Made for the Anakin win. Now how on God's green earth does that translate to Anakin beating Yoda? Yoda NOT trying to kill Dooku.. ALSO got the better of the fight. Is there any doubt that if yoda had been going all out he kills Dooku? I mean really is there? What are we left with then...
Anakin with help on two occasions struggled to beat Dooku.. and only did after he was in the zone and another got completely and utter tooled by dooku with help. He's one n one vs. Dooku. Just because A.I. scored 45 on jorday one game.. yet scored only 20 the game before.. doesn't mean we use his 45 point game as the norm.. we don't. Just because Jax plays out of their mind and beats the Patriots.. do we go.. they always beat the pats when in the zone? No, because that means they always are in the zone and exludes the variable of NE being in a zone. Then we have yoda who NOT TRYING to kill Dooku got the better of the fight. Then we have yoda fighting somebody superior to Dooku in EVERY WAY and getting the better of him... yet you wanna go Anakin beats Yoda? That leap in logic isn't one I'm willing to take. Yoda beats Anakin, and to be honest, even zone anakin wouldn't be too hard.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Just because Yoda wasn't going for the kill against Dooku doesn't mean we should just write Dooku off as nothing next to him.
Well Dooku is definitely not a nobody, but when we consider how much Yoda was holding back, it makes the feat a little less impressive on Dooku's part.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Mace didn't go for the kill against Sidious at first, and Anakin wasn't initially aiming to kill Dooku either.
But they were each much more willing to kill their opponents and held absolutely no attachments with them, whereas Yoda did have an attachment for Dooku and was not as willing to kill him.
Yoda possibly could have chopped Dooku's arms off and took him in without killing him, but since Yoda does not have the reach Anakin has, it would be more difficult for him.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
But Yoda pretty much outclassed Sidious in Sabers anyway.
And seeing how Sidious blitzed three saber masters and nearly cut Windu (around Dooku's equal) down before Windu was fully tapped into vapaad, would put Yoda a bit ahead of Zonakin, IMO.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
In the CW when Anakin unleashed his full power he was able to control The Son and Daughter, each of whom were said to be more powerful than any Jedi.
I need to watch that episode again, but I think Anakin's control of the son and daughter ("light side" "dark side"😉 may have had more to do with Anakin bringing them under his will more than an actual TK feat. His position of being the chosen one would give him the ability to do so.
Besides, that's not the Anakin we are discussing here.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Add to that his complete trouncing of Count Dooku in Sabers, and I would give the Saber fight to Zone Anakin here. He may even have a chance at the all out Imho.
All out? I think you're overestimating Anakin. Yoda is faster and more acrobatic than Dooku (and Anakin), and would thus be able to keep a distance from Anakin in order to utilize force attacks.
As I said, Anakin's only advantage would be his strength, which would give Yoda a hard time.
Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Dooku wasn't going for the kill against Anakin at first, and in fact, was toying with BOTH Anakin and Kenobi In the process of doing so... weakened him, and along with Anakin reaching his zone... Made for the Anakin win. Now how on God's green earth does that translate to Anakin beating Yoda? Yoda NOT trying to kill Dooku.. ALSO got the better of the fight. Is there any doubt that if yoda had been going all out he kills Dooku? I mean really is there? What are we left with then...
Anakin wasn't "trying" to kill Dooku at first either. He's even less likely to be out for the kill when Obi-Wan is there with him.
It was Anakin who weakened Dooku. Obi-Wan had very little to do with Dooku's weakening.
But yes Dooku was getting weaker as Anakin kept getting stronger (according to the novel and the script).
Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Anakin with help on two occasions struggled to beat Dooku.. and only did after he was in the zone and another got completely and utter tooled by dooku with help. He's one n one vs. Dooku. Just because A.I. scored 45 on jorday one game.. yet scored only 20 the game before.. doesn't mean we use his 45 point game as the norm.. we don't. Just because Jax plays out of their mind and beats the Patriots.. do we go.. they always beat the pats when in the zone? No, because that means they always are in the zone and exludes the variable of NE being in a zone. Then we have yoda who NOT TRYING to kill Dooku got the better of the fight. Then we have yoda fighting somebody superior to Dooku in EVERY WAY and getting the better of him... yet you wanna go Anakin beats Yoda? That leap in logic isn't one I'm willing to take. Yoda beats Anakin, and to be honest, even zone anakin wouldn't be too hard.
I don't know what your talking about that Anakin struggled with help to beat Dooku twice?? You obviously don't watch Clone Wars where Anakin has been consistently almost stalemating Count Dooku.
And ROTS Anakin > CW Anakin.
Again Anakin never went for the kill until he already had Count Dooku at his mercy. He decided to "win" not kill. And the second he made that decision he won. He went for Dooku's hands, not his head.
And until you can quantify just how much better Sidious is than Dooku in a Pure fencing contest that point is irrelevant. We alreasy know as a fact that Zonakin is >>> Dooku in Sabers.
Heck even CW Anakin = Dooku in Sabers.
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66But they were each much more willing to kill their opponents and held absolutely no attachments with them, whereas Yoda did have an attachment for Dooku and was not as willing to kill him.
Good points, but it doesn't change the fact that the second Zonakin decided to go for Dooku's hands they were off. His blade moved with his will the second he "decided to win."
Also Obi-Wan had a very strong attachment to Anakin but still did what he had to to put him down.
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
And seeing how Sidious blitzed three saber masters and nearly cut Windu (around Dooku's equal) down before Windu was fully tapped into vapaad, would put Yoda a bit ahead of Zonakin, IMO.
Not sure about that. Zonakin stopped Dooku the second he cleared his head and decided to. His blade moved with his will (as described in the ROTS novel).
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
I need to watch that episode again, but I think Anakin's control of the son and daughter ("light side" "dark side"😉 may have had more to do with Anakin bringing them under his will more than an actual TK feat. His position of being the chosen one would give him the ability to do so.Besides, that's not the Anakin we are discussing here.
Obi-Wan tells Anakin to reach out through the force and he does. If you re-watch and see how he controls them, it's clearly a TK feat.
And I think we are discussing the same Anakin. You really don't think it was Zonakin who controlled the Son and Daughter??
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
All out? I think you're overestimating Anakin. Yoda is faster and more acrobatic than Dooku (and Anakin), and would thus be able to keep a distance from Anakin in order to utilize force attacks.As I said, Anakin's only advantage would be his strength, which would give Yoda a hard time.
Thing is Zonakin's power wasn't coming from his physical strength. He was tapping into an unusual amount of his force reserves. It would be very odd to think all that extra power in the force was only effecting his strength and nothing else.
I have no doubt if Anakin did a Force push in that moment it would be mutiple times more powerful than his standard force push.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Anakin wasn't "trying" to kill Dooku at first either. He's even less likely to be out for the kill when Obi-Wan is there with him.It was Anakin who weakened Dooku. Obi-Wan had very little to do with Dooku's weakening.
But yes Dooku was getting weaker as Anakin kept getting stronger (according to the novel and the script).
I don't know what your talking about that Anakin struggled with help to beat Dooku twice?? You obviously don't watch Clone Wars where Anakin has been consistently almost stalemating Count Dooku.
And ROTS Anakin > CW Anakin.
Again Anakin never went for the kill until he already had Count Dooku at his mercy. He decided to "win" not kill. And the second he made that decision he won. He went for Dooku's hands, not his head.
And until you can quantify just how much better Sidious is than Dooku in a Pure fencing contest that point is irrelevant. We alreasy know as a fact that Zonakin is >>> Dooku in Sabers.
Heck even CW Anakin = Dooku in Sabers.
The novelization makes it clear that they were trying to slowly wear dooku down.. knowing they couldn't be aggressive and take him out when he was at full strength. Plus they were concealing their form to hide from dooku what they were trying to do to him. Point is, the novelization makes it clear both of them attacking him and having to fight both of them off did wear him down.. not just anakin. Anakin is still only 1 v 1 against dooku and both times he had help. That isn't a very good record. That is in stzrk cotrast to Yoda and how he performed against Dooku.
You say we don't have a measuring bar for Sidious compared to Dooku.. why would one need one? He's the master dooki the student. Do we need a measuring bar or variable to compare OBi to Yoda or Mace? No... we know where they stand and it's abundantly clear. So if Yoda does very good against Sids it stands to reason (and it was confirmed i nthe movie) he would do well against Dooku or Anakin.
I'm not sure why you keep on bring up the clone wars animated series into this. The movies are the highest form of canon and in that medium... We see Anakin needs help both times to wear down dooku.. and even so, is still only 1 v 1 against him. How we can then make a leap and logic .. or really defy logic and go.. Anakin can beat Yoda.. I just makes NO sense what so ever.
Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
The novelization makes it clear that they were trying to slowly wear dooku down.. knowing they couldn't be aggressive and take him out when he was at full strength. Plus they were concealing their form to hide from dooku what they were trying to do to him. Point is, the novelization makes it clear both of them attacking him and having to fight both of them off did wear him down.. not just anakin. Anakin is still only 1 v 1 against dooku and both times he had help. That isn't a very good record. That is in stzrk cotrast to Yoda and how he performed against Dooku.You say we don't have a measuring bar for Sidious compared to Dooku.. why would one need one? He's the master dooki the student. Do we need a measuring bar or variable to compare OBi to Yoda or Mace? No... we know where they stand and it's abundantly clear. So if Yoda does very good against Sids it stands to reason (and it was confirmed i nthe movie) he would do well against Dooku or Anakin.
I'm not sure why you keep on bring up the clone wars animated series into this. The movies are the highest form of canon and in that medium... We see Anakin needs help both times to wear down dooku.. and even so, is still only 1 v 1 against him. How we can then make a leap and logic .. or really defy logic and go.. Anakin can beat Yoda.. I just makes NO sense what so ever.
Would you believe the CW series is higher in canonicity than the ROTS Novel?? The movie and script are G-Canon but the novel just C-Canon. The series is T-Canon.
So the fights in the CW series are pretty important in terms of canon. And so far there have been 3 Anakin vs Dooku fights. No Obi-Wan involved. And in each fight Anakin looks better and better against Dooku, obviously because he's getting more powerful through the Clone Wars.
So bearing that in mind I just don't see the ROTS fight going much different if Obi-Wan wasn't there.
The AOTC fight is completely irrelevant because Anakin was a padawan.
The point about quantifying Dooku vs Sidious is a valid one. We have never seen them fight. They maybe close in Sabers but Sidious still much more powerful in an all out.
A different example- Dooku is obviously much more powerful than Obi-Wan in the force and in an all out, but many people think a pure Saber fight between them maybe close.