Stoic,
Your argument, and correct me if I'm wrong, is basically this: Infinity Man didn't kill Superman in one shot as he did New Gods, so either a) Infinity Man was some sort of silver bullet to New Gods or b) Infinity Man was HH at best
Lets tackle these one at a time.
a) Infinity man was a silver bullet to New Gods
Well, this doesn't really make much sense at all. For starters, this was never mentioned or implied in any way. That alone makes this entirely baseless speculation. If that were true, it doesn't make sense how Infinity Man was able to go rounds with the Anti-Life Entity Scott Free (the Entity is a multiversal concept and not a New God, after all). Nor does it explain how IM/ALE were able to destroy the Source Wall (multiversal also, never been breached by countless beings skyfather level+ let alone HH)
b) Infinity Man was HH at best
Well, this is full retard. For starters, IM has always been >HH. You're using a single showing against Superman and discounting one-shotting hundreds of thousands of New Gods, many of whom were HH+ (e.g. Takion, Black Racer, etc). These killings were done right before the fight with Superman. Then you're discounting his feats immediately following Superman (i.e. ALE Scott Free, busting the Source Wall).
Not one-shotting Superman (who was merely a spectator IM was not interested in killing) is not indicative in any way of power level. Thor fought Zeus, and yet you're not calling Zeus a high herald for not one-shot killing Thor. Silver Surfer didn't get killed by T&A. I could write a whole book about skyfather+ beings not one-shot killing high heralds, but I won't because it doesn't mean shit.
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No, I said have the ability to one shot KO Superman, take what I said, not what you may believe that I said. If the Infinity Man was that powerful he would have put Superman out, and placed him within the force cube. This did not happen, so he opted to just imprison him. I'll say it once more, KO him. He was not able to do so. What happen was just the opposite, Superman began to push the Infinity Man back. Superman would have never begun to push Tyrant back.
A) Scott destroyed the Source Wall, not the Infinity Man. And this was all a part of the Source Entities plan for the wall to come down in order for it to become complete once again. Logic dictates many things. for one how well did Superman do when he once fought the Black Racer? Yet the Black Racer was easily assassinated off panel by the IM, and there was no sign of struggle to be seen. Yet Superman was able to take hits from this almighty Infinity Man, and even push him back, because in my book, Superman appeared to be getting the best out of the brief exchange, until the IM decided that Oh shit this guys too much of a handful to take out like this, so he Judiciously stuck him in a solidified light cube. Nothing more nothing less. So either Superman was operating at the level of an elite Sky Father, or the Infinity Man was not as powerful as people may have thought he was. It was also never stated as to how powerful the upgrade made him. Not even one citation. The deaths were a damn mystery all the way up until the last 2 books of the arc. First of all the ALE is the Source Entities second nature, and it knew intimately what powers to give the IM in order to do battle with this power, because it was the Source's power all along just not in the Source's possession due to the Ales dark nature, which disallowed the Source to become whole when it first found the Ale. That is what you may have missed, which may be confusing you.
B. Like I said before, every New God was the creation of the Source Entity, and the Source empowered his agent with the specific tools to take out New Gods. Superman was an unknown variable and was not supposed to be there in the first place, just as the Soul Fire potion was an unknown variable that the Source did not know about. Isn't that what the books say? You see the problem here is that you are trying to push the Infinity Man's upgrade unto the rest of the universe that were not New Gods, and as Superman proved, that just was not the case.
For you or anyone to believe that the IM was more powerful than an Elite Sky Father contradicts his showing against Superman, who has been taken down by far less than a being on Odin's level.
1. Do you know how much power the Source gave the Infinity Man, or the true nature of the power up?
2. If the Infinity Man was more powerful than an elite Sky Father, why was he not able to just slap Superman into a KO'd condition. Odin would have been able to, Tyrant would have been able to, the Inbetweener would have been able to, Zeus would have been able to, Rune King Thor would have been able to. All of these guys would have been able to slap Superman out with one hit, and do so without killing him, and once they did this they would be able to encase him within a cube of force. The Infinity Man was not able to do this, and according to the book, Superman was pushing him back.
Listen believe what you believe, but understand this, when people are sitting there claiming that the Infinity Man was above Odin, or that you would need a cosmic cube to stop him, there isn't a shred of proof to support the claim. It's just like Drax, and Thanos. Drax was given the power to weaken his physical body, and even kill him, but Nova Prime was able to beat up into a KO. If people did not know this, they would run around calling Drax a high Trans-low Sky Father, but for those of us that know the truth about Drax he simply is not.
Originally posted by Stoicbecause all out superman is superior to skyfathers
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No, I said have the ability to one shot KO Superman, take what I said, not what you may believe that I said. If the Infinity Man was that powerful he would have put Superman out, and placed him within the force cube. This did not happen, so he opted to just imprison him. I'll say it once more, KO him. He was not able to do so. What happen was just the opposite, Superman began to push the Infinity Man back. Superman would have never begun to push Tyrant back.A) Scott destroyed the Source Wall, not the Infinity Man. And this was all a part of the Source Entities plan for the wall to come down in order for it to become complete once again. Logic dictates many things. for one how well did Superman do when he once fought the Black Racer? Yet the Black Racer was easily assassinated off panel by the IM, and there was no sign of struggle to be seen. Yet Superman was able to take hits from this almighty Infinity Man, and even push him back, because in my book, Superman appeared to be getting the best out of the brief exchange, until the IM decided that Oh shit this guys too much of a handful to take out like this, so he Judiciously stuck him in a solidified light cube. Nothing more nothing less. So either Superman was operating at the level of an elite Sky Father, or the Infinity Man was not as powerful as people may have thought he was. It was also never stated as to how powerful the upgrade made him. Not even one citation. The deaths were a damn mystery all the way up until the last 2 books of the arc. First of all the ALE is the Source Entities second nature, and it knew intimately what powers to give the IM in order to do battle with this power, because it was the Source's power all along just not in the Source's possession due to the Ales dark nature, which disallowed the Source to become whole when it first found the Ale. That is what you may have missed, which may be confusing you.
B. Like I said before, every New God was the creation of the Source Entity, and the Source empowered his agent with the specific tools to take out New Gods. Superman was an unknown variable and was not supposed to be there in the first place, just as the Soul Fire potion was an unknown variable that the Source did not know about. Isn't that what the books say? You see the problem here is that you are trying to push the Infinity Man's upgrade unto the rest of the universe that were not New Gods, and as Superman proved, that just was not the case.
For you or anyone to believe that the IM was more powerful than an Elite Sky Father contradicts his showing against Superman, who has been taken down by far less than a being on Odin's level.
1. Do you know how much power the Source gave the Infinity Man, or the true nature of the power up?
2. If the Infinity Man was more powerful than an elite Sky Father, why was he not able to just slap Superman into a KO'd condition. Odin would have been able to, Tyrant would have been able to, the Inbetweener would have been able to, Zeus would have been able to, Rune King Thor would have been able to. All of these guys would have been able to slap Superman out with one hit, and do so without killing him, and once they did this they would be able to encase him within a cube of force. The Infinity Man was not able to do this, and according to the book, Superman was pushing him back.
Listen believe what you believe, but understand this, when people are sitting there claiming that the Infinity Man was above Odin, or that you would need a cosmic cube to stop him, there isn't a shred of proof to support the claim. It's just like Drax, and Thanos. Drax was given the power to weaken his physical body, and even kill him, but Nova Prime was able to beat up into a KO. If people did not know this, they would run around calling Drax a high Trans-low Sky Father, but for those of us that know the truth about Drax he simply is not.
creepsmile
No but in all seriousness, superman rule of thumb, superman fluctuates to whatever tier he needs to be for a story arc.
Stoic, you can make shit up all you want, but this will always be true
Originally posted by Cogito
Not one-shotting Superman (who was merely a spectator IM was not interested in killing) is not indicative in any way of power level. Thor fought Zeus, and yet you're not calling Zeus a high herald for not one-shot killing Thor. Silver Surfer didn't get killed by T&A. I could write a whole book about skyfather+ beings not one-shot killing high heralds, but I won't because it doesn't mean shit.
Originally posted by Cogito
Stoic, you can make shit up all you want, but this will always be true
And yet he hit him and got into a battle with him, when he could have trapped him all along. His eye blast did not work, his punches did not work. He was pushed back, and he certainly was not playing with Superman because that was not the tone of the battle. Tyrant one shotting and taking out all of those Heralds was done in fun, he was even smiling while beating the mess out of them. The opposite occurred with the Infinity Man.
Originally posted by Uriel005
because all out superman is superior to skyfatherscreepsmile
No but in all seriousness, superman rule of thumb, superman fluctuates to whatever tier he needs to be for a story arc.
Sorry but the arc did not go that way. Superman had it out with Kalibak, and Orion during the arc, and none of those battles made him out to be on Odin's level or anywhere close. Accept my apologies, but I just won't buy that.
@Cogito What gives you the idea that the Infinity Man was on that level? You didn't even know who the hell was killing the New Gods, but automatically jumped to the damn conclusion that whoever was killing them had to have been a powerful ass SOB. But you never took it into consideration that the Source may have powered his agent merely with tools to exploit his own creations, because this would be completely out of the effing question., after all who better to know the New Gods than the guy who created them. You can't lump the rest of the universe together and say that because the Infinity Man defeated the New Gods without there even having been a struggle in order to inflate him, because you never even saw how he killed them. So you keep on making shit up as you go along, but on panel there is proof to the contrary. Superman's battle performance against the IM is the only solid proof as to how well he would do against a non New God of that level of power.
Originally posted by Stoic
@Cogito What gives you the idea that the Infinity Man was on that level? You didn't even know who the hell was killing the New Gods, but automatically jumped to the damn conclusion that whoever was killing them had to have been a powerful ass SOB. But you never took it into consideration that the Source may have powered his agent merely with tools to exploit his own creations, because this would be completely out of the effing question., after all who better to know the New Gods than the guy who created them. You can't lump the rest of the universe together and say that because the Infinity Man defeated the New Gods without there even having been a struggle in order to inflate him, because you never even saw how he killed them. So you keep on making shit up as you go along, but on panel there is proof to the contrary. Superman's battle performance against the IM is the only solid proof as to how well he would do against a non New God of that level of power.
Originally posted by Stoic
And yet he hit him and got into a battle with him, when he could have trapped him all along. His eye blast did not work, his punches did not work. He was pushed back, and he certainly was not playing with Superman because that was not the tone of the battle. Tyrant one shotting and taking out all of those Heralds was done in fun, he was even smiling while beating the mess out of them. The opposite occurred with the Infinity Man.
Fact: Superman didn't hurt Infinity Man
Fact: Infinity Man didn't care about killing Superman (in fact didn't want to kill Superman. He only killed the New Gods because he was directed to by the Source. He's still buddies with Supes)
Fact: Tons of Skyfathers and abstracts even have failed to, or chosen not to, kill heralds with ease. You're ignoring every instance of this happening because you don't want to believe that Infinity Man, empowered by the goddamn Source, was actually powerful. I don't know why it's so hard for you to believe that he was actually legit.
Originally posted by Stoic
@Cogito What gives you the idea that the Infinity Man was on that level? You didn't even know who the hell was killing the New Gods, but automatically jumped to the damn conclusion that whoever was killing them had to have been a powerful ass SOB. But you never took it into consideration that the Source may have powered his agent merely with tools to exploit his own creations, because this would be completely out of the effing question., after all who better to know the New Gods than the guy who created them. You can't lump the rest of the universe together and say that because the Infinity Man defeated the New Gods without there even having been a struggle in order to inflate him, because you never even saw how he killed them. So you keep on making shit up as you go along, but on panel there is proof to the contrary. Superman's battle performance against the IM is the only solid proof as to how well he would do against a non New God of that level of power.
Originally posted by abhilegend
Thanos doesn't turn heralds in glass on his own.
What does matter manipulation mean to you? I'm just wondering, because Sersi does things like that all of the time, as well as other Eternals. The Power Gem just gave him a higher degree of power and control of this ability. This is also way off topic.
Originally posted by Cogito
Stoic,Your argument, and correct me if I'm wrong, is basically this: Infinity Man didn't kill Superman in one shot as he did New Gods, so either a) Infinity Man was some sort of silver bullet to New Gods or b) Infinity Man was HH at best
Lets tackle these one at a time.
a) Infinity man was a silver bullet to New Gods
Well, this doesn't really make much sense at all. For starters, this was never mentioned or implied in any way. That alone makes this entirely baseless speculation. If that were true, it doesn't make sense how Infinity Man was able to go rounds with the Anti-Life Entity Scott Free (the Entity is a multiversal concept and not a New God, after all). Nor does it explain how IM/ALE were able to destroy the Source Wall (multiversal also, never been breached by countless beings skyfather level+ let alone HH)b) Infinity Man was HH at best
Well, this is full retard. For starters, IM has always been >HH. You're using a single showing against Superman and discounting one-shotting hundreds of thousands of New Gods, many of whom were HH+ (e.g. Takion, Black Racer, etc). These killings were done right before the fight with Superman. Then you're discounting his feats immediately following Superman (i.e. ALE Scott Free, busting the Source Wall).
Not one-shotting Superman (who was merely a spectator IM was not interested in killing) is not indicative in any way of power level. Thor fought Zeus, and yet you're not calling Zeus a high herald for not one-shot killing Thor. Silver Surfer didn't get killed by T&A. I could write a whole book about skyfather+ beings not one-shot killing high heralds, but I won't because it doesn't mean shit.
He went full retard and then some, is argument is flawed from top to bottom
Originally posted by Stoic
It's not an assumption, he was not able to KO Superman on panel, the rest outside of it was, and is an assumption. he was also unable to assassinate Scott while he was in the Ale form. This is not me assuming, but what I was given to work with.
I don't agree, and I think you're making a leap to justify a position that's already on shaky ground.
Originally posted by Cogito
Stoic,Your argument, and correct me if I'm wrong, is basically this: Infinity Man didn't kill Superman in one shot as he did New Gods, so either a) Infinity Man was some sort of silver bullet to New Gods or b) Infinity Man was HH at best
Lets tackle these one at a time.
a) Infinity man was a silver bullet to New Gods
Well, this doesn't really make much sense at all. For starters, this was never mentioned or implied in any way. That alone makes this entirely baseless speculation. If that were true, it doesn't make sense how Infinity Man was able to go rounds with the Anti-Life Entity Scott Free (the Entity is a multiversal concept and not a New God, after all). Nor does it explain how IM/ALE were able to destroy the Source Wall (multiversal also, never been breached by countless beings skyfather level+ let alone HH)b) Infinity Man was HH at best
Well, this is full retard. For starters, IM has always been >HH. You're using a single showing against Superman and discounting one-shotting hundreds of thousands of New Gods, many of whom were HH+ (e.g. Takion, Black Racer, etc). These killings were done right before the fight with Superman. Then you're discounting his feats immediately following Superman (i.e. ALE Scott Free, busting the Source Wall).
Not one-shotting Superman (who was merely a spectator IM was not interested in killing) is not indicative in any way of power level. Thor fought Zeus, and yet you're not calling Zeus a high herald for not one-shot killing Thor. Silver Surfer didn't get killed by T&A. I could write a whole book about skyfather+ beings not one-shot killing high heralds, but I won't because it doesn't mean shit.
👆
That's what it comes down to, really. Speculation.