Originally posted by The_TempestPersonally i think its ridiculous and unrealistic. When the novel talks about pristine clarity, its probably just talking about what happened in the moment. Not like Anakin has a secret mode that he turns into when he decides to kill someone.
For what it's worth (a lot, I know), I've come to the conclusion that the concept of "teh z0ne" Anakin is really retarded and one of Stover's more facepalm-worthy moments.
Originally posted by mnat801
Personally i think its ridiculous and unrealistic. When the novel talks about pristine clarity, its probably just talking about what happened in the moment. Not like Anakin has a secret mode that he turns into when he decides to kill someone.
Originally posted by Darth _Sadow1Yeah I agree. Yeah I've only ever heard it on this forum.
Well the book makes everything more drawn out and interesting. I love the book, but yeah, he really doesn't become Superman when he goes into the zone....I never even heard of the idea of "Zone" anakin until I started on these forums. But whatever. the way that the Dooku fight was from his point of view was cool though.
He wouldn't have made the suicide leap as a Jedi. That's for sure.
Look at how many things Zone Anakin didn't care about:
"Dooku's decades of combat experience are irrelevant. His mastery of swordplay is useless. His vast wealth, his political influence, impeccable breeding, immaculate manners, exquisite taste-the pursuits and points of pride to which he has devoted so much of his time and attention over the long, long years of his life-are now chains hung upon his spirit, bending his neck before the ax.
Even his knowledge of the Force has become a joke.
It is this knowledge that shows him his death, makes him handle it, turn it this way and that in his mind, examine it in detail like a black gemstone so cold it burns. Dooku's elegant farce has degenerated into bathetic melodrama, and not one shed tear will mark the passing of its hero."
Why would he be afraid of a cliff, when Dooku's skill and Force mastery didn't matter to him? He can jump it over after all. He made desicion, it needs to be done no matter what and no matter how.
Personally i think its ridiculous and unrealistic. When the novel talks about pristine clarity, its probably just talking about what happened in the moment. Not like Anakin has a secret mode that he turns into when he decides to kill someone.
"his firewalls have opened so that the terror and the rage are out there, in the fight instead of in his head, and Anakin's mind is clear as a crystal bell."
What I understand from this quote is that before Anakin was restraining himself, all those Jedi dogmas and morals were distracting him, preventing him from focusing on opponent. But then he stopped thinking and just let his rage guide him.
And his desicion to take hand of Dooku is not a demonstration of a clever tactical move. He didn't think of how he would do it, what technique he would use. It's just a pure demonstration of dominating opponent without any attempt to outwit opponent. I say it was as reckless move as it could be, he acted on instinct.
Same way against Kenobi all he wanted is to kill him. He didn't think about anything else, he didn't care that Kenobi was his best friend. Emotions were blinding him making his head as crystal clear as in case with Dooku. Imho pristyne clarity means that his goal is clear: defeat opponent and no other distracting thoughts or doubts visit his head.
It was actual zone Anakin that Kenobi won. /thread
Originally posted by Arhael
Not true.
If there was a cliff between him and Dooku and Anakin decided to win in that moment, then he would jump. If he started doubting himself because of circumstances that Dooku might use TK on him or chop his legs off, then his mind wouldn't be as "clear as crystal bell". And if he changed his desision becuse of a cliff, then it wouldn't be Zone Anakin
I just don't believe Jedi Anakin is tactically stupid at all. Thinking he is superior to other Jedi/Sith doesn't mean he thinks he can make any leap.
Even as a Sith in ROTS, he didn't just immediately make the jump. He did stop to assess the situation and think before he jumped. As an Enraged Jedi in those few seconds he would have calmed down and seen that's a tactically stupid thing to do.
Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Kenobi always beats Anakin... more times than not.
Firstly that's a contradiction.
Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
This should be abundantly clear.
Second: How on Tatooine is that abundantly clear??
Originally posted by mnat801
I do not disagree with this, however I hope Kenobi's state of mind is being taken into consideration. Remember his talk with Yoda, he said he didn't want to fight Anakin, so in the fight, he is less reluctant to kill his padawan like would with a more obvious enemy e.g grevious. Plus, Vader didn't seem to have any problems with killing off the jedi in the temple (even had one hand behind his back)
Actually Anakin says to Obi-Wan "Don't make me destroy you," whilst Obi-Wan says to Anakin "I'll do what I must."
Doesn't matter anyway. They both attempted to strike each other down.
Originally posted by Arhael
Why would he be afraid of a cliff, when Dooku's skill and Force mastery didn't matter to him? He can jump it over after all. He made desicion, it needs to be done no matter what and no matter how.
It's not that he's afraid of the cliff. It's the fact that it's a tactically unwise decision. ZonAnakin has the clarity of mind to realise this. But Pre-Suit Vader, torn up after betraying the Jedi Order, force-choking his wife, and now fighting his best friend, a man he's looked up to for most of his life, isn't likely to be able to recognise this, his thoughts muddled and clouded as they are.
It seems that, some people are trying to give any possible reason to excuse sith anakin's loss to kenobi, where it still stands that kenobi striked him down. Whether Kenobi had a high ground advantage, it doesnt matter; it wasnt like it was handed to him, he had to fight his way there. And still, why didn't Sith Anakin use it to his advantage?
Look, if there's anyone that disagrees with me, I can respect that. Its until you actually claim that its fact that Sith Anakin is superior to Kenobi that I will disagree with. And I'm not trying to state that Kenobi is superior, its just that its my opinion. I'm only trying to prove that Anakin isn't superior to Kenobi. I hope that's understandable.
Is this clear enough? :
I personally believe that Obi wan IS superior, however I am only showing that its my opinion, rather than stating that its fact that Obi wan is superior.
Furthermore, if people believe that Anakin is superior, that's fine, but because I don't think there is enough evidence to support that, I don't think its fair for anyone to actually make it official that Anakin is superior.
Is that better?
There isn't evidence that Anakin's superior to Kenobi. That's why we're having this discussion. Evidence of Anakin being superior to Kenobi would of been Anakin walking away from Mustafar and Kenobi going down the molten lava falls.
But it was Kenobi walking away unscathed. And yet you say I can't comprehend the evidence...
Originally posted by Lord Lucien
The history of this thread shows that neither you nor KT can comprehend the evidence. You both confuse victory with skill.
Thank you.
To use an analogy, in the cricket Australia is a much better team than Bangladesh. Just because Bangladesh might defeat Australia once, doesn't necessarily mean Bangladesh is the better cricket team.
The same goes here.
Originally posted by Lord LucienI do comprehend the evidence. I do understand that Anakin may have been doing more damage throughout the majority of the duel (but still pretty even). However, if Kenobi was'nt skilled enough, then he should have lost that battle. When we talk about superiority over another individual, we need to take into account other aspects such as knowledge and experience, not just simply skill. And like I said, the use of higher ground wasn't just handed to Kenobi, he used it to his advantage, whilst at the same time Anakin's lack of patience costed him 2 legs and an arm. So what I'm trying to say is that it wasn't a fluke victory for Kenobi.
The history of this thread shows that neither you nor KT can comprehend the evidence. You both confuse victory with skill.
Originally posted by KylarWhiteA fair point. But in cricket, there's history that proves that Australia is the better team (e.g they have one more times than not), where as for Anakin there's no clear proof. Same goes with Obi Wan. But since we can only view one match, I am basing my judgement on that one match.
Thank you.To use an analogy, in the cricket Australia is a much better team than Bangladesh. Just because Bangladesh might defeat Australia once, doesn't necessarily mean Bangladesh is the better cricket team.
The same goes here.
I have no argument in the fact that it's possible that Anakin could win in a rematch, but same goes with Obi Wan.
Therefore I am only disagreeing that Anakin is officially better than Obi Wan.
Originally posted by mnat801Yeah. It was. The novel makes that explicitly clear.
I do comprehend the evidence. I do understand that Anakin may have been doing more damage throughout the majority of the duel (but still pretty even). However, if Kenobi was'nt skilled enough, then he should have lost that battle. When we talk about superiority over another individual, we need to take into account other aspects such as knowledge and experience, not just simply skill. And like I said, the use of higher ground wasn't just handed to Kenobi, he used it to his advantage, whilst at the same time Anakin's lack of patience costed him 2 legs and an arm. So what I'm trying to say is that it wasn't a fluke victory for Kenobi.
I think people keep forgetting that this thread isn't even Sith Anakin vs Kenobi. It's "Zone" Anakin vs Kenobi. That means Jedi Anakin at the top of his game.
In which case the response to this:
Originally posted by mnat801
There isn't evidence that Anakin's superior to Kenobi.
is pretty damn obvious.
The evidence of Anakin's superiority to Kenobi is his beating of Count Dooku who Kenobi was pretty useless against.
After that fight I don't see how anyone in their right mind can think there's no evidence Anakin is superior to Kenobi.
In fact even in the CW Series, Anakin is clearly a threat to Count Dooku, something Kenobi has never been.
Originally posted by mnat801
A fair point. But in cricket, there's history that proves that Australia is the better team (e.g they have one more times than not), where as for Anakin there's no clear proof. Same goes with Obi Wan. But since we can only view one match, I am basing my judgement on that one match.
No the cricket analogy is perfect. Even if Bangladesh beats Australia and even if it's the only time they played each other, it wouldn't matter. Everybody would know Australia is better because of the opponents they've beaten time and time again, whom Bangladesh has always been useless against.
In this case we know Anakin is greater because of his far superior performances against Count Dooku (and even Ventress).
So therefore if Kenobi and Anakin fight only once, and Kenobi wins it doesn't matter. It's still perfectly clear that Anakin is the more powerful combatant.