ROTS Kenobi vs. Zone Anakin

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Ok. So you actually do agree that Anakin is the superior warrior to Obi-Wan, he's just at a disadvantage when fighting his teacher.. If that's what your saying then that's fine with me. I think there were other factors involved aside from that, but at least you agree that Anakin's superior and was disadvantaged.

And how was he disadvantaged?

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Not me. I'm basing who is the superior warrior on their past fights and not just one fight Obi-Wan was destined to win.

Secondly, I understand what your basing it on. But the best way to determine whether you're superior to somebody is to fight them yourself. I don't know if you've been watching boxing in recent years because for instance, Monte Barret has fought and won against David Tua, who has beaten Shane Cameron, who only a couple of weeks ago has beaten Monte Barret. So pretty sure this is a more relevant analogy than cricket.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Yeah, your definitely the one making excuses.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
The Clone War movie was Anakin's first fight against Dooku since AOTC. And even that early in the CW he faired far far better against the Count than Obi-Wan did as late as ROTS.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
I constantly have. Your just ignoring it. Anakin consistently stalemates Count Dooku during the Clone Wars. Whilst Obi-Wan has always been useless against Dooku.

The biggest thing that has been ignored is the fact that you don't consider Kenobi's victory over Vader as enough evidence of Kenobi being at least on par with Anakin, let alone superior.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
If your going to just ignore my points then get off these boards. Nobody likes a troll.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
He's stalemated Count Dooku consistently during the CW! He fought an enraged Ventress alongside Kenobi and yet it was Kenobi who got knocked out cold. Skywalker has never been knocked out/defeated by Ventress.

Obi Wan hasn't had the chance to face Dooku in the Clone Wars series yet. Obi Wan defeated an enraged pre-suit Vader. If you speak so highly of Anakin, you'd know that defeating an enraged pre suit Vader is a greater feat than defeating Dooku.
I know your just going to ignore all these points and keep trolling though. [/B][/QUOTE] Im sorry if that's how I sound when I write.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
It wasn't just a name change. It was a whole mental shift. "Twisted by the Dark Side Young Skywalker has become. Gone is the boy you knew" or something like that..

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
And there's plenty of evidence that mental focus is the key to a Force user's power.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
This is why you need to read the goddamn novel. It was about mentality. Anakin had four distinct mental phases that changed his combat prowess: his normal self, his angry self, his Zone self, and Vader. In terms of power and combative effectiveness it went Zone>Vader>anger>normal.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Some people believe Kenobi only won because Anakin was conflicted and emotional. Others believe Kenobi would always beat Anakin because of his style and the fact that he knew Anakin in n out. So I figured I'd use peak anakin vs. Master Kenobi

Anakin's rage was not conflicting him in their battle on Mustafar, it did the opposite, it gave him strength and focus.

Eventually, after a prolonged and relentless attempt at breaking Kenobi's seasoned experience in Soresu, which was giving him a truly unbreakable defense in that fight (he poured everything into his defense, not concerned about beating or killing his "brother"😉, Anakin finally began to ware-out along with his master.

Then his high-ground defense against Anakin's leaping assault accidentally ended the fight with Anakin losing three of his non-robotic limbs.

Yet his potential was still greater than Yoda's even as Vader. He just became what you'd call "conflicted" about what he had become. Without Padme he just couldn't realize his potential as the most power Sith ever.

Anyway, Anakin would have eventually beaten Obi-Wan if it weren't for that fluke.

Originally posted by mnat801
So you don't mind considering Anakin's mental changes but you think its fine to conclude that Obi Wan used all his fighting capabilities against his padawan?

No matter what you (or I) think, it's not a matter of opinion-- I keep trying to stress this point. In flat out, clear-as-day, easy-to-read words, the novelization of Revenge of the Sith, which was line-edited by Lucas himself, details explicitly, from Obi-Wan's own personal POV, that Anakin was more powerful than he, and that Anakin was winning. Lucas himself flat-out says "Anakin is more powerful, but Obi-Wan is more experienced." It's only thanks to that experience that Obi-Wan is able to defend himself. He was on his last legs, trying every maneuver and "last trick" up his sleeve merely to stay alive. Anakin only started being stupid at the last minute because the plot needed him to be (which is what we call plot induced stupidity--PIS). In plot-free, variable-removed fight on neutral ground, Anakin is the victor.

Now... here's the important part. Are you paying attention? Really paying attention? Good: none of that was my opinion. Not a single part of that paragraph above--not a single word of it--was my opinion. Whether it be from the novelization, or Lucas' own mouth, it's all canonical fact. Please... please please reread this post about 5 or 6 times, and let that sink in to your head. There is no opinion to be had here, not a whit. I'm done responding after this post. If the lightbulb of understanding hasn't clicked over your head by now, it never will.

Originally posted by mnat801
What? I never said that. I think you've got the wrong idea. You asked me if I believe that Anakin>Dooku>>>Obi Wan>Anakin. Which is pretty much right.

How does that make any sense? There's such a huge differecne between Dooku and Obi-Wan that it would take more than just different styles for Obi-Wan to be equal/superior to Anakin.

It would be like saying Sidious > Dooku >>> Obi-Wan > Sidious.

Would that make any sense to you at all?

Originally posted by mnat801
And how was he disadvantaged?

Fighting his teacher/mentor who knows him better than anyone. Your the one who pointed this out.

Originally posted by mnat801
Ok first of all let me get something straight. It doesn't matter if Obi Wan was destined to win, because thats just like saying Anakin was destined to kill Dooku, or Kenobi was destined to kill Grevious, or Vader was destined to kill Sideous, and so on.

When it's the will of the Force for a certain event to take place then nothing can stop it.

Anakin proved many times he was at least on par with Dooku. I don't think Kenobi was destined by the will of the Force to kill Grievous. Grievous has been battered by many Jedi and was probably destined to be killed by one in the end due to simply continuously playing out of his league, and his boss willing to betray him any time.

Vader WAS destined to kill Sidious. And it was only with the will of the Force on his side he was able to do that. He certainly wasn't as powerful as Sidious, that's for sure.

Originally posted by mnat801
Secondly, I understand what your basing it on. But the best way to determine whether you're superior to somebody is to fight them yourself.

I don't know if you've been watching boxing in recent years because for instance, Monte Barret has fought and won against David Tua, who has beaten Shane Cameron, who only a couple of weeks ago has beaten Monte Barret. So pretty sure this is a more relevant analogy than cricket.

No wrong analogy. Anyone can get lucky once. It's consistent showings that count. And I guarantee none of those above fights you've mentioned were an easy first round knock out like Dooku vs Obi-Wan was.

Originally posted by mnat801
Like I said, just because Anakin is better against Dooku than Kenobi is against Dooku doesn't make Anakin better than Kenobi.

It does because the difference between Dooku and Obi-Wan is just too large to write off to a difference of styles playing out.

Originally posted by mnat801
Yes I know, and I have answered your questions about Anakin and Dooku in TCW series, so how am I ignoring it?

The biggest thing that has been ignored is the fact that you don't consider Kenobi's victory over Vader as enough evidence of Kenobi being at least on par with Anakin, let alone superior.

No because like I said One Off's happen.

But Kenobi simply CAN NOT be on par with Anakin, because he lost too badly and too quickly to Dooku and an enraged Ventress. Anakin has handled himself much much better against both those opponents.

In fact he's NEVER been defeated by Ventress, and only lost to Dooku: 1. As a Padawan and 2. When Dooku had a small army of Mgnaguards on his side.

Originally posted by mnat801
Obi Wan hasn't had the chance to face Dooku in the Clone Wars series yet.

We've seen him have his chance against Dooku at the end of the Clone Wars. When Kenobi is at his peak. And he was next to useless against him.

Originally posted by mnat801
But we've gone over this. As much as Anakin's mental state effected his fighting abilities, Obi Wan didn't want to kill him like he would with Grevious or Dooku. Yes, they were both going for the kill, but it shows on screen that Vader was enraged and wanting to kill Obi Wan more than Obi Wan wanting to kill Vader. That's probably why Obi Wan cut off his legs and arm instead of his head.

Wrong. Obi-WaN SAID "i'LL DO WHAT i MUST," was the first one to ignite his lightsaber, and he attempted to strike Anakin down more than once. In fact that's exactly what he did in the end.

Originally posted by mnat801
Can you provide some please

Dave Filoni said in the CW Series Obi-Wan was able to fight off Maul and Opress because his "Focus" was at it's peak.

Whilst just 1 EPISODE EARLIER he lost to both in One on One fights because he wasn't properly focused.

Originally posted by mnat801
So you don't mind considering Anakin's mental changes but you think its fine to conclude that Obi Wan used all his fighting capabilities against his padawan?

Of course he did.

And so did Anakin. But Anakin's powers were not at their peak in the state he was in.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER

Of course he did.

And so did Anakin. But Anakin's powers were not at their peak in the state he was in.

Anakin was at his best because of Force rage.

Palpatine claimed his rage made him powerful, and gave him focus. Focus. Focus. Focus.

Pay attention.

Anakin wins.

Originally posted by Dolos
Anyway, Anakin would have eventually beaten Obi-Wan if it weren't for that fluke.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
You think it's fine to conclude he didn't in a fight for his life and the future of the Jedi and the galaxy?

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
No matter what you (or I) think, it's not a matter of opinion-- I keep trying to stress this point. In flat out, clear-as-day, easy-to-read words, the novelization of Revenge of the Sith, which was line-edited by Lucas himself, details explicitly, [b]from Obi-Wan's own personal POV, that Anakin was more powerful than he, and that Anakin was winning. Lucas himself flat-out says "Anakin is more powerful, but Obi-Wan is more experienced." It's only thanks to that experience that Obi-Wan is able to defend himself. He was on his last legs, trying every maneuver and "last trick" up his sleeve merely to stay alive. Anakin only started being stupid at the last minute because the plot needed him to be (which is what we call plot induced stupidity--PIS). In plot-free, variable-removed fight on neutral ground, Anakin is the victor.[/B]

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Now... here's the important part. Are you paying attention? Really paying attention? Good: none of that was my opinion. Not a single part of that paragraph above--[b]not a single word of it--was my opinion. Whether it be from the novelization, or Lucas' own mouth, it's all canonical fact. Please... please please reread this post about 5 or 6 times, and let that sink in to your head. There is no opinion to be had here, not a whit. I'm done responding after this post. If the lightbulb of understanding hasn't clicked over your head by now, it never will. [/B]

Originally posted by mnat801
Not a fluke. Simply Anakin's stupidity. Doesn't matter whether Anakin would have beaten him or not, what counts is what actually happened in the end, because in the end, Obi Wan is the victor due to Anakin's lack of patience.

But this topic is asking that specific question, what if Obi-Wan never got the chance to exploit Anakin's arrogance.

What if that battle had continued and the only way for Obi-Wan to pull a win was to kill his apprentice in direct combat.

Despite Kenobi's proficiency with Soresu, he was beginning to get worn out by Anakin's relentless assault. That's the kind of powerhouse this guy was. He tore down Dooku in a matter of seconds, he had seemingly limitless reserves energy pouring out of him. Truly unlimited stamina, the power of continually breaking Kenobi's perfect Soresu defense kept coming and coming, Mace Windu himself would die of exhaustion doing what Anakin was able to do.

Originally posted by mnat801
He did, but surely you can understand that he was fighting someone that he was friends with for 13, compared to raw enemies like Grevious/Dooku.

Thing with novels is that every reader interprets them a different way than another person. So simple solution: instead of asking me to read "the godam novel" give me a quote from the novel, because in the end its YOU that wants to prove the evidence. So Lucas says, "Anakin is more powerful, but Obi Wan is more experienced" There's nothing in that sentence that declares Anakin being the superior warrior.

If you're done responding, good for you.

I suspect that you don't actually speak English, and are just translating all these posts through a cheap program. There's no other way someone can confuse "flat out, clear-as-day, easy-to-read" or "details explicitly" with words like "interprets". Especially when I... explicitly... stated that it was nothing of the sort.

I also suspect that you can't operate a cursor, since the ability to downlaod a 241kb zip of Revenge of the Sith is literally two clicks away, as I have offered up three times before.

You are a superior dunce, and I bow down and submit to your awfulness.

Originally posted by mnat801
Not a fluke. Simply Anakin's stupidity.

It was his newly found Sith Arrogance making him stupid. A problem Jedi Anakin wouldn't even have. (And btw would could Obi-Wan have possibly done to him on even ground? Say they fought on Tatooine where Maul and Qui-Gon fought... Nothing. Obi-Wan's defenses would have eventually been battered).

Anyway Jedi Anakin was much much smarter than Obi-Wan. Fact. Deal with it mnat801. Deal with it.

How many times do we need to go over this... Kenobi beat Anakin.. and a rage fueled Anakin... which was the key to him beating dooku... except he had even more rage. Kenobi beat him... and beat him clearly. Anakin beating dooku is great but there is context to that fight and loss by Dooku. Not to mention the fact that Anakin was also dismembered by Dooku and Kenobi wasn't...

The thing is, his mind is ''foggy'' when fighting Obi-Wan, but crystal clear when he fights Dooku

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
How many times do we need to go over this... Kenobi beat Anakin.. and a rage fueled Anakin... which was the key to him beating dooku... except he had even more rage. Kenobi beat him... and beat him clearly. Anakin beating dooku is great but there is context to that fight and loss by Dooku. Not to mention the fact that Anakin was also dismembered by Dooku and Kenobi wasn't...

And Anakin wasn't.

Originally posted by Jedi Mom
The thing is, his mind is ''foggy'' when fighting Obi-Wan, but crystal clear when he fights Dooku

The text is clear and it's repeated numerous times by the emperior... giving into the darkside and his rage.. gave him focus and clarity. Furthermore, Kenobi was every bit as cloudy as Anakin... afterall, he was going to have to try and kill what he considered to be a son. Clearly, that would make anybody emotional and conflicted. Sorry, but that is the same for both

The Emperor's opinion is NOT canon KT. And Kenobi wasn't crying like a menstruating Betty (who just got mind****ed by the the most twisted mind in the universe) just before dueling Anakin.

There are two types of Rage KT. There's a controlled rage where, while being enhanced by the darkness, the individual is in full control (both mentally and physically), being able to peer through the dark veil with clairty of mind. This can be seen in other aspects of life, aside from the fictional SW universe. It's seen in sports (i.e. boxing, MMA, wrestling, etc...) from time to time. It's what some call the "zone." Hence the term "Zonakin." And then there's the type of rage that fully engulfs oneself, and while enhancing the individual from a purely physical perspective (strength, speed, reflexes, etc...), the mind becomes a clouded mess that leads to irrational and mistake prone decision making, thus endangering the individual.