Originally posted by DARTH POWERI don't see how anyone can block a force choke.
You've lost it! Why do you keep bringing up AOTC? Dooku completely embarrassed Kenobi in ROTS!What's this "suprprise" force push nonesense. He hit Obi-Wan with the Force TWICE. What was Obi-Wan caught off guard TWICE?! If he was then he's just not a good warrior in an all out. Definitely no match for Anakin.
But Nah he's just useless against Dooku when Force TK comes into place.
As for the Boxing thing. Knock Outs are common. What I said was First Round Knock Out!!! Not even a whole round considering Dooku took out Kenobi in a few seconds. Kenobi was just no threat to Dooku at all. And he had Anakin by his side for God's Sake!
IMO,
Anakin Skywalker specially prepared himself for Count Dooku after his history with the latter Sith Lord prior to events of ROTS. Dooku had chopped one hand of Anakin on Geonosis (long time ago) and overwhelmed the latter Jedi with his Force powers in several other encounters.
Anakin, in response, strongly focused on improving his skills with the lightsaber; mastered Form V, which nullified the advantage of Form II (to prevent the repeat of Geonosis like incident). Expertise in Form V also complements Anakin's aggressive mentality and raw power; shaping him in to aggressive warrior whose strategy would be to lock a potential opponent in lightsaber combat and then disarm ASAP so that the potential opponent wouldn't get enough time and opportunity to exploit his (Anakin's) weaknesses. But this fighting style was still a gamble.
Anakin knew that Dooku was more well-versed in the ways of the Force them him (Dooku was older; more experienced; and more learned) and his option would be to force Dooku in a lightsaber duel; trap him during the prosses; and then disarm him quickly. This is exactly what happened during ROTS; Anakin's strategy eventually worked against Dooku in the end.
However, this victory, instead of wisening Anakin; made him more arrogant and his craving for greater power further intensified. Anakin did not understood the potential ramifications of short-cuts to power. He, inspite of being the most gifted Jedi in history, was not very patient. On top of this, even Anakin was not anticipating a clash with his Master Obi-Wan Kenobi. Anakin wasn't prepared for this fight perhaps? He did not paid much attention to formulate a strategy to overcome Obi-Wan's strengths. This and his arrogance eventually failed him against Obi-Wan.
What surprises me is that Anakin had such long history with Obi-Wan and still did not learn some tricks to outgun him, just in case. Maybe, Obi-Wan intentionally held Anakin back? Or Obi-Wan proved to be wiser and prepared himself for the worst-case-scenario, just in case? Or Obi-Wan was not an ideal instructor for Anakin?
Other much more powerful and wise Jedi Masters; Yoda and Mace, were also hesitant to train Anakin themselves; they had anticipated early on that Anakin was not emotionally fit for being a Jedi. Yoda specially attempted to wisen-up Anakin by granting him a padawan during The Clone Wars but this approach also failed.
Maybe Anakin was too stupid and cocky to learn from the wisdom of his Master's teachings.
Obi-Wan was like patience; patience; patience; Anakin was like WTF; WTF; WTF
The pair wasn't so much compatible after all.
Damn! ROTS is so confusing. I think that George Lucas sucks in writing stories. He is still an innovater.
Originally posted by mnat801
I don't see how anyone can block a force choke.
So what you think Obi-Wan could Force Choke Dooku? Lol
And you seem to forget(or maybe your just ignoring it) the fact that Kenobi also failed to block a simple force push from Dooku.
The fact is when we combine force powers Obi-Wan is no match for Dooku. At all.
Anakin on the other hand is. As proven on more than one occasion.
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
IMO,Anakin Skywalker specially prepared himself for Count Dooku after his history with the latter Sith Lord prior to events of ROTS. Dooku had chopped one hand of Anakin on Geonosis (long time ago) and overwhelmed the latter Jedi with his Force powers in several other encounters.
Anakin, in response, strongly focused on improving his skills with the lightsaber; mastered Form V, which nullified the advantage of Form II (to prevent the repeat of Geonosis like incident). Expertise in Form V also complements Anakin's aggressive mentality and raw power; shaping him in to aggressive warrior whose strategy would be to lock a potential opponent in lightsaber combat and then disarm ASAP so that the potential opponent wouldn't get enough time and opportunity to exploit his (Anakin's) weaknesses. But this fighting style was still a gamble.
Good theory but not buying it simply because Anakin has tanked full on force attacks from Dooku. And has consistently proved to be a match for him. Even in their very first fight since AOTC in the CW Movie Anakin was performing far better against Dooku than Kenobi did in ROTS. And he was hit full on by Dooku's Force attacks.
So I just think in an all out Anakin is more powerful than Obi-Wan. Their sword fighting skills however are pretty even. And I'll give this to Obi-Wan - he keeps a cooler head when things are really intense. But that alone didn't help him against Count Dooku.
And I still say Anakin has proven more than once that he's tactically smarter than Obi-Wan.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Good theory but not buying it simply because Anakin has tanked full on force attacks from Dooku. And has consistently proved to be a match for him. Even in their very first fight since AOTC in the CW Movie Anakin was performing far better against Dooku than Kenobi did in ROTS. And he was hit full on by Dooku's Force attacks.
I recall two encounters of Anakin with Dooku during Clone Wars in which Dooku overwhelmed Anakin with his Force powers.
One such encounter took place in Tatooine in which Anakin failed to defend himself from telekinetic attacks of Dooku. However, Anakin did not get hurt because the duel took place in a Sandy region.
Another such encounter took place in Naboo in which Dooku incapacitated Anakin with Force Lightning.
Keep in mind that Sidious did not wanted Anakin dead. He tasked Dooku to kill Obi-Wan and lure Anakin to the dark side. Dooku came close to doing so aboard Invisible Hand but became a victim of Sidious's mechanics instead.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
So I just think in an all out Anakin is more powerful than Obi-Wan. Their sword fighting skills however are pretty even. And I'll give this to Obi-Wan - he keeps a cooler head when things are really intense. But that alone didn't help him against Count Dooku.And I still say Anakin has proven more than once that he's tactically smarter than Obi-Wan.
Also, Obi-Wan actually wanted Anakin to work with him to jointly handle the threat of Dooku due to lessons learned in previous encounters. Anakin eventually acknowledged this and did so aboard Invisible Hand.
Yes, Anakin was growing in power. However, his victory over Dooku was not on the basis of his understanding of the Force but rather on the basis of him tapping more in to his raw potential then he previously had done (by using Sith emotions such as anger and fear) and his considerably improved skills with the lightsaber by this time. However, Anakin mistakenly employed the same approach against Obi-Wan later on and it did not work because not just Obi-Wan matched Anakin's skills with the lightsaber but Anakin's understanding of the Force wasn't superior to that of former at this time.
This is why I assume that Anakin wasn't prepared to deal with Obi-Wan. Things changed around him so fast that he barely got the time to adjust himself to these changes. He blindly joined the Sith for the fear of loosing Padme. He did not learn any lesson from the fate of Dooku and instead became more stubborn. He took wrong cues from his victory over Dooku; he mistakenly assumed that he would be able to deal with any kind of threat afterwards.
Dooku fell in to this trap because he was being held back by Sidious. Otherwise, Dooku was strong enough to prevent this fate by using his greater understanding of the Force to his advantage. But Sidious wanted to discard Dooku in favour of Anakin and he intelligently manipulated Dooku to put himself in a vulnerable position for the purpose of converting Anakin to dark side.
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
And when did this tanking took place? I admit, I have not watched all episodes of CW cartoons. So I may have missed some stuff but still youtube makes things easy.
You seem to have seen the instances I'm referring to.
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
I recall two encounters of Anakin with Dooku during Clone Wars in which Dooku overwhelmed Anakin with his Force powers.
I'd call it more like keeping Anakin at bay with his Force Powers. He never actually defeated him in either fight.
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
One such encounter took place in Tatooine in which Anakin failed to defend himself from telekinetic attacks of Dooku. However, Anakin did not get hurt because the duel took place in a Sandy region.
Dooku clearly wasn't able to incapacitate him with the ease he did to ROTS Kenobi.
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Another such encounter took place in Naboo in which Dooku incapacitated Anakin with Force Lightning.
Yeah when Anakin floored and almost Choked Dooku to death, Dooku barely survived with a combination of Force TK and FL smashing him against a Pillar, and Skywalker was still not KO'd! Or even disarmed of his weapon.
Under normal circumstances FL is usually quite simple to defend against with a Lightsaber which Anakin showed he can do at the beginning of their fight on Tatooine.
And on that fight on Naboo Dooku hit Skywalker with the Force several times, and all it did each time was push him back. But it was just delaying the inevitable which would be Skywalker being all over him again.
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Keep in mind that Sidious did not wanted Anakin dead. He tasked Dooku to kill Obi-Wan and lure Anakin to the dark side. Dooku came close to doing so aboard Invisible Hand but became a victim of Sidious's mechanics instead.
Keep in mind Dooku clearly went for the kill on Tatooine when Anakin was temporarily floored and disarmed.
Also regarding the fight on Naboo, Dave Filoni says he doesn't believe Palpatine would say or do anything to help save Anakin's life.
After all it was a test to see how strong he is. If he dies then Palpatine will simply think he wasn't good enough to be his apprentice. Sith tests are no joke.
Originally posted by DARTH POWERBut jedi are encouraged to use the force for defense and healing, instead of out of anger or fear. So that's why you would never see Obi Wan force choke Dooku.
So what you think Obi-Wan could Force Choke Dooku? LolAnd you seem to forget(or maybe your just ignoring it) the fact that Kenobi also failed to block a simple force push from Dooku.
The fact is when we combine force powers Obi-Wan is no match for Dooku. At all.
Anakin on the other hand is. As proven on more than one occasion.
Originally posted by mnat801
But jedi are encouraged to use the force for defense and healing, instead of out of anger or fear. So that's why you would never see Obi Wan force choke Dooku.
There's still nothing stopping him Blocking Dooku's Force push or Force pushing Dooku himself.
The reason that didn't happen is that Dooku was simply outfighting Kenobi in an all out, and Kenobi simply didn't have the force defenses to deal with him.
Also Luke Force chokes the Gamorrean guards at Jabba's Palace in ROTJ.
The fact remains... and there is NO getting around this fact.. The time both fought and were both close to prime.. Kenobi won.. and won convincingly. There is no getting around this fact and no amount of excuses changes it either. The excuse of he was messed up mentally just doesn't hold water. Kenobi was dealing with a lot of emotions as well... Just because he did or didn't handle them better is neither here nor there. He did, period. People are forgetting there last fight as well.. This was a well past his prime Kenobi.. against a younger and stronger Vader... Yet Vader STILL wasnt' able to overwhelm him with his sword or force powers. Which of course, fits perfectly with a young kenobi beating vader, since an older one stalemated him.
Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
The fact remains... and there is NO getting around this fact.. The time both fought and were both close to prime.. Kenobi won.. and won convincingly.
Not really. Winning convincingly would have been Kenobi chopping Skywalker up in direct combat. He didn't. He couldn't. In fact it was Skywalker who was Driving Kenobi back and getting more licks in the direct combat.
Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
There is no getting around this fact and no amount of excuses changes it either. The excuse of he was messed up mentally just doesn't hold water. Kenobi was dealing with a lot of emotions as well... Just because he did or didn't handle them better is neither here nor there. He did, period.
No the fact is he beat him by outsmarting him when he was in an emotionally unstable state. Under normal circumstances Skywalker is much much smarter as proven many many times.
And the fact is Skywalker in his prime can handle Count Dooku. Kenobi can't. That's the fact you need to get your head around.
Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
People are forgetting there last fight as well.. This was a well past his prime Kenobi.. against a younger and stronger Vader... Yet Vader STILL wasnt' able to overwhelm him with his sword or force powers. Which of course, fits perfectly with a young kenobi beating vader, since an older one stalemated him.
What is this crap?? That was a completely different fight.
Old Ben had likely mastered the force well beyond his ROTS counterpart who was getting chucked all over the place by Count Dooku.
And Machine Vader was slower and less mobile than ROTS Anakin and also had a weaker connection to the Force.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Not really. Winning convincingly would have been Kenobi chopping Skywalker up in direct combat. He didn't. He couldn't. In fact it was Skywalker who was Driving Kenobi back and getting more licks in the direct combat.No the fact is he beat him by outsmarting him when he was in an emotionally unstable state. Under normal circumstances Skywalker is much much smarter as proven many many times.
And the fact is Skywalker in his prime can handle Count Dooku. Kenobi can't. That's the fact you need to get your head around.
What is this crap?? That was a completely different fight.
Old Ben had likely mastered the force well beyond his ROTS counterpart who was getting chucked all over the place by Count Dooku.
And Machine Vader was slower and less mobile than ROTS Anakin and also had a weaker connection to the Force.
We've gone over this before.. the MOST significant strike landed was by Kenobi. He pimp smacked Anakin to the ground. No strike from Anakin on kenobi knocked him to the ground nor kept him on the ground like the one Kenobi landed. So you're actually totally wrong there... Kenobi chopped up Anakin into seperate parts during the sword fight and then landed the most significant h2h strike. Thanks but try agian.
Kenobi was also in an emotional state as well. Because he's able to control his emotions better.. is not something to scoff at, and it's something that would aid him each and every time they fought. He knows Anakin very well physically AND mentally. He knows he is rash... emotional and how to get these emotions to work against Anakin. That is what being calm cool and collected gets you.. along with being somebody's teacher and master. The fact is.. kenobi being rational and calm in the face of danger or emotional trauma is an asset he would always have and use against Anakin.
Anakin never handled count dooku without first weakening him with the help of Kenobi. Or beat him when Dooku was actually going for the kill FROM THE START before tiring as the battle progressed and then realizing he needed to kill him. Anakin hasn't handled dooku without those factors in play. To say nothing of his AOTC losses and might I add.. more dismemberment.
You say that Vader was slower... okay.. yet this nonsense about him having a weaker connnection to the force is just poop. Sure, in theory he did as he lost some of his m count. Yet, he displayed FAR FAR greater force powers AFTER ROTS. Much like your theory on why Older Ben wasn't ragdolled and overwhelmed by vader force powers.. Vader would also be older and have mastered the force more. Well of course he had.. since ya know... he displayed far greater force powers after he was cut in half. The fact it, that vader still could only stalemate an older ben... what does this tell us you ask? That a younger prime Kenobi could beat that vader if an older ben could stalemate him. Guess what, that is exactly what we saw when they were both prime.. Kenobi got the better of Anakin... It all fits perfectly.
Originally posted by KuRuPT ThanosiSo you're actually totally wrong there... Kenobi chopped up Anakin into seperate parts during the sword fight
When the heck did that happen? That was during a leap not during a direct sword fight.
Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
and then landed the most significant h2h strike.
Lol more significant than Anakin throttling Obi-Wan by the throat?? Hardly. The only one who was in gasping in pain was Obi-Wan. And he also shouted in pain when Anakin kicked him in the face.
Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Kenobi was also in an emotional state as well. Because he's able to control his emotions better.. is not something to scoff at, and it's something that would aid him each and every time they fought. He knows Anakin very well physically AND mentally. He knows he is rash... emotional and how to get these emotions to work against Anakin. That is what being calm cool and collected gets you.. along with being somebody's teacher and master. The fact is.. kenobi being rational and calm in the face of danger or emotional trauma is an asset he would always have and use against Anakin.
Kenobi was distraught at Anakin turning. But he was hardly in a newly founded psychotic state like Skywalker.
Or what, you think it was in character for Jedi Anakin to have force choked Padme?? LOL
Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Anakin never handled count dooku without first weakening him with the help of Kenobi.
Yes he did. At least twice during the CW. And stop making excuses for Dooku. The same source that said he was tired also states he revitalized himself before his one on one with Anakin.
Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Or beat him when Dooku was actually going for the kill FROM THE START before tiring as the battle progressed and then realizing he needed to kill him.
He's pretty much stalemated a few times now. And if this isn't going for the kill at 1:20 then I don't know what is:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oqLj5wgkmRU
At 1:20! And this was only a few months after AOTC!
Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Anakin hasn't handled dooku without those factors in play.
He has pretty much stalemated him many times. I can show you the other fights if you don't believe me. The one I've posted is actually the worst Anakin has done against Dooku since AOTC.. And even there he wasn't defeated.
Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
To say nothing of his AOTC losses and might I add.. more dismemberment.
Bringing up Count Dooku vs a Padawan Anakin is just getting desperate on your part.
Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
You say that Vader was slower... okay.. yet this nonsense about him having a weaker connnection to the force is just poop.
Oh really??
George Lucas talking about Vader in the ESB Audio commentary:
He's LOST A LOT OF POWER in the Force AND a lot of feasibility to surpass the Emporer..
Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Sure, in theory he did as he lost some of his m count. Yet, he displayed FAR FAR greater force powers AFTER ROTS
Yeah so did Count Dooku! Didn't help him too much against Skywalker. Force Powers have other applications in Combat than just Force TK.
As far as a strict Lightsaber duel goes, Vader would lose to ROTS Anakin like 7-8/10.
So bringing up Vader vs Old Ben is again just plain desperate on your part.
That was a completely different fight. ANH Vader and ROTS Pre-Suit Vader had Completely different abilities.
Let's not pretend that they were going h2h at that point. They were mixing it up with swrods.. ANAKIN ATTACKED WITH HIS SWORD... It was blocked and Kenobi landed his sword strike. The need to lie and act like this isn't what happens IS the definition of desperate.
A force choke isn't the same as a h2h stirke.. Desperate much? THE MOST significant strike landed was by Kenobi.. You've admitted this before.. yet are faultering now.. interesting... Kenobi's strike knocked anakin flat on his back and he stayed there long enough for kenobi to TK his saber to him stand over him and strike down. No strike Anakin landed keep Kenobi down and dazed and had anakin atanding over him. Fact.
So Kenobi was emotional just as I stated. Thank you for agreeing with me. Yet, even in that emotional state, he was able to keep his composure.. sometihng anakin couldn't do.. and has shown a propensity to not be able to do. Another check for Kenobi on why he would beat Anakin more times than not.
Stalemating him ISN'T beating him. You just keep proving my point. The only time HE BEAT HIM WAS WHEN THERE WAS CONTEXT TO THE FIGHT. Stuff made clear in canon novelization. You're also forgetting that if you use up energy to restore your stamina.. you've just used up some of your reserves. Why does this point allude you. Using up reserves means you have less to use as the fight goes on.
Why do you keep bringing up an point that is not the issue. QUestion.. did Vader show more force prowess AFTER ROTS? You know this is true.. so why go on about how he doesn't have the potential he used to have. GREAT.. we get that. That doesn't change the fact (WHICH YOU ALREADY ADMITTED) That Old bed with years more of experience was much more adept at the force. THE SAME IS TRUE OF VADER.. even if he couldn't become what he once could. That is an irrelevent point. The relevent point is that he become more prodigous with the force AFTER ROTS. Yet, Old ben was still able to stalemate him. Hmmmm see a pattern here.. Old ben Stalemates a more powerful and experienced in the force Vader.. One might assume a younger Kenobi would do better than.. HMMMMMMMMMM that is EXACTLY what played out isn't it? Let me ask you this.. Who would win in a force powers only battle Vader or Anakin? You know the answer and you know what it means...
These are all facts that cannot be gotten around. Kenobi has Anakin's number and always would.
Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Let's not pretend that they were going h2h at that point. They were mixing it up with swrods.. ANAKIN ATTACKED WITH HIS SWORD... It was blocked and Kenobi landed his sword strike. The need to lie and act like this isn't what happens IS the definition of desperate.
I'm not actually sure what your talking about here.
Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
A force choke isn't the same as a h2h stirke.. Desperate much? THE MOST significant strike landed was by Kenobi.. You've admitted this before..
There's no way I've admitted that. The choke was definitely much more lethal. The kick to the face had Kenobi shout in pain. The script itself confirms Anakin was the one who was controlling the fight.
Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
So Kenobi was emotional just as I stated. Thank you for agreeing with me. Yet, even in that emotional state, he was able to keep his composure.. sometihng anakin couldn't do.. and has shown a propensity to not be able to do. Another check for Kenobi on why he would beat Anakin more times than not. .
When did I ever deny Kenobi has better control over his emotions than Skywalker??
Of course he does.
But a Psychotic Dark Side Skywalker making a stupid move does in no way mean Kenobi would win the majority against Jedi Skywalker. He barely won against the pschotic version and required the twisted psycho to make tactically super dumb move for him to even have a chance.
It was out of character for Skywalker to choke his wife. That proves he was acting OUT OF CHARACTER in this state.
Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Stalemating him ISN'T beating him. You just keep proving my point. The only time HE BEAT HIM WAS WHEN THERE WAS CONTEXT TO THE FIGHT.
Urmm Stalemating Count frigging Dooku puts him considerably out of Kenobi's league. And that was a weaker Skywalker. He was getting more powerful throughout the Clone Wars!
You seem to be making a lot of excuses for Count Dooku losing and then go crazy at anyone arguing a context for Anakin's loss.
Count Dooku in his usual mental state lost to Skywalkwer in direct combat. Fact.
A newly demented Skywalker lost to Kenobi NOT in direct saber combat but by getting outsmarted. Fact.
Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
You're also forgetting that if you use up energy to restore your stamina.. you've just used up some of your reserves. Why does this point allude you. Using up reserves means you have less to use as the fight goes on.
Your a bit confused with this point. Dooku revitalizing himself with the Force put him back at full power by all accounts. The downside is that there's only so many times Dooku can do that.
But even in a one on one without Kenobi (who hardly helped Anakin for a few seconds btw) Skywalker would just keep battering through Dooku's defenses. The only difference it would make is that Dooku would last longer but still fail.
This excuse that Dooku's loss was completely circumstantial may have worked in the old days but the Clone Wars has changed all that.
I'm afraid in terms of power ROTS Anakin > Dooku > Kenobi.
Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Why do you keep bringing up an point that is not the issue. QUestion.. did Vader show more force prowess AFTER ROTS? You know this is true.. so why go on about how he doesn't have the potential he used to have. GREAT.. we get that. That doesn't change the fact (WHICH YOU ALREADY ADMITTED) That Old bed with years more of experience was much more adept at the force. THE SAME IS TRUE OF VADER.. even if he couldn't become what he once could. That is an irrelevent point. The relevent point is that he become more prodigous with the force AFTER ROTS. Yet, Old ben was still able to stalemate him. Hmmmm see a pattern here.. Old ben Stalemates a more powerful and experienced in the force Vader.. One might assume a younger Kenobi would do better than.. HMMMMMMMMMM that is EXACTLY what played out isn't it? Let me ask you this.. Who would win in a force powers only battle Vader or Anakin? You know the answer and you know what it means...
LOL, Count Dooku would also beat Anakin in a Force Only battle. But in an all out he loses.
I'm not even saying ROTS Anakin > ANH Vader. (Although he may well be in an all out).
I'm saying it's a useless point to bring up, because that Vader and ROTS Anakin had completely different abilities and it's hard to say whose greater.
But there is actually a thread on ROTS Anakin vs Old Ben and pretty much everyone was in agreement that Anakin would kill him. If he can beat Dooku, then Old Ben really wouldn't be a threat to him.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
I'm not actually sure what your talking about here.There's no way I've admitted that. The choke was definitely much more lethal. The kick to the face had Kenobi shout in pain. The script itself confirms Anakin was the one who was controlling the fight.
When did I ever deny Kenobi has better control over his emotions than Skywalker??
Of course he does.
But a Psychotic Dark Side Skywalker making a stupid move does in no way mean Kenobi would win the majority against Jedi Skywalker. He barely won against the pschotic version and required the twisted psycho to make tactically super dumb move for him to even have a chance.
It was out of character for Skywalker to choke his wife. That proves he was acting OUT OF CHARACTER in this state.
Urmm Stalemating Count frigging Dooku puts him considerably out of Kenobi's league. And that was a weaker Skywalker. He was getting more powerful throughout the Clone Wars!
You seem to be making a lot of excuses for Count Dooku losing and then go crazy at anyone arguing a context for Anakin's loss.
Count Dooku in his usual mental state lost to Skywalkwer in direct combat. Fact.
A newly demented Skywalker lost to Kenobi NOT in direct saber combat but by getting outsmarted. Fact.
Your a bit confused with this point. Dooku revitalizing himself with the Force put him back at full power by all accounts. The downside is that there's only so many times Dooku can do that.
But even in a one on one without Kenobi (who hardly helped Anakin for a few seconds btw) Skywalker would just keep battering through Dooku's defenses. The only difference it would make is that Dooku would last longer but still fail.
This excuse that Dooku's loss was completely circumstantial may have worked in the old days but the Clone Wars has changed all that.
I'm afraid in terms of power ROTS Anakin > Dooku > Kenobi.
LOL, Count Dooku would also beat Anakin in a Force Only battle. But in an all out he loses.
I'm not even saying ROTS Anakin > ANH Vader. (Although he may well be in an all out).
I'm saying it's a useless point to bring up, because that Vader and ROTS Anakin had completely different abilities and it's hard to say whose greater.
But there is actually a thread on ROTS Anakin vs Old Ben and pretty much everyone was in agreement that Anakin would kill him. If he can beat Dooku, then Old Ben really wouldn't be a threat to him.
1. you do know the point buddy and you know exactly it significance. Question... When Anakin made the leap.. Did he not try and strike Kenobi down with his saber.. only to have it blocked and countered with a strike from Kenobi which sliced him into pieces? That is exactly what happened i.e. SWORD fight. They weren't going h2h... they weren't use force powers... Kenobi landed the WINNING BLOW DURING THE SWORD porition of the fight. A jump.. a block.. a counter strike.. VICTORY. That is how most swords fights play out y aknow.. acting like it was anything other than is reaching.. and I mean REALLY reaching.
2. I asked you before.. DId Kenobi land the h2h strike that kept Anakin longer than ANY strike Anakin landed on Kenobi. You unquestionably said yes (how could you not considering that is a fact). Why do you keep bringing up a force choke that has nothing to do with h2h striking? I said Kenobi landed the most significant strike that kept Anakin on the gorund longer than anything Anakin landed. This is true. Thus your assertion that Anakin was always winning the h2h fight is totally false.
3. You keep on bringing up Anakin making dumb moves only because he turned to the darkside and was emotional.. Yet, he's made dumb moves when he was a jedi and hadn't turned to the darkside nor overly emotional. Is this not true? Let's not pretend the only time Anakin made bold rash dumb moves was when he was an unstable newly turned sith. This was a common problem for Anakin made clear over and over again in novelization and movies. What does this mean? No WHICH Anakin Kenobi fights.. Anakin STILL is more likely to make a dumb bold move or loss control of his emtions before Kenobi.. True or False? That being the case.. doesn't that give Kenobi a mental advantage each and every time they would fight?
4. You keep acting like I believe Kenobi would lose in sword play against Dooku.. You keep acting like this is a fact in evidence when it's not. Dooku beat Kenobi (after he was a soresu master) WITH THE FORCE. He didn't beat him with sword play. I personally believe if Dooku engaged Kenobi in just swordplay like he did Anakin.. Kenobi would eventually win. You don't agree? Dooku gained the advantage over Kenobi with force powers not sowrdplay.. Dooku only engaged Anakin in swordplay.. So I'm not seeing this "it puts him well beyond kenobi" because he beat Dooku in swordplay only. Do you believe Anakin woudl beat dooku in a force powers only fight?
5. I don't get your next point at all. I said the exact same thing.. but you go.. you don't seem to get the point and repeat what I said. Yes, this is exactly the point.. Dooku wouldn't be able to keep revitalizing himself as he just did. Whic his exactly my point. He had to at that point because he was WORN DOWN BY FIGHTING BOTH OF THEM OFF. If he didn't have to fight them both off.. he would have more reserves and be fresher.. If he was going for the kill right away WHILE FRESHER.. he might have been able to land the killing blow being stronger and fresher at that point. Simple. True or false?
6. Point is.. an older kenobi statemated a much more proficient and prodigous user of the force in Vader. A more force powerful Vader wasn't able to beat a well past his best Kenobi. The most logical convlusion would then be.. that a younger in his prime Kenobi would have a much better shot at beating Vader/Anakin... True or false? Guess what IT HAPPENED.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
You've lost it! Why do you keep bringing up AOTC? Dooku completely embarrassed Kenobi in ROTS!What's this "suprprise" force push nonesense. He hit Obi-Wan with the Force TWICE. What was Obi-Wan caught off guard TWICE?! If he was then he's just not a good warrior in an all out. Definitely no match for Anakin.
And even Luke could get caught off guard:
"Then the figure flicked one of his hands, and Luke found himself flying backward, bouncing off YVH droids and tumbling out of control. He reached out in the Force, grabbing at passing hatches, the ceiling, even Raynar himself, but he was whirling too fast to catch hold of anything.
He hit the end of the corridor with a tremendous clung, unsure whether he was upside down or sideways, then crashed to the floor struggling to remain conscious."
If prime Luke could get caught off guard, why is it so hard to believe that Dooku is skillful enough to catch off guard the likes of Kenobi, who unlike Luke never demonstrated profficiency in TK???
And Anakin like Kenobi is not proficient with TK, so whatever state he is in, he can't Force handle Kenobi.