Again.
What counter does Superman have for getting tossed into an alternate reality? Victory through ring-out is a viable option for Nate, and also how strong is Superman's telepathic defense/resistance? Nate's telepathy is above Xavier's, so Kal better have some good resistance or he's either getting possessed or his powers shut down.
Originally posted by Falcon Man
Nate's destructive capacity is around planet level going by feats; even pre-Shaman Nate could destroy the moon with a single attack.Taken from X-Man #45
http://img707.imageshack.us/img707/1016/xma45p03.jpg
http://img638.imageshack.us/img638/5561/xma45p04.jpg
http://img202.imageshack.us/img202/6540/xma45p0506.jpgShaman should be planet level at least, especially since he fought Qabiri who is a planet-buster IIRC.
However, Shaman and Vulcan still win in spite of the firepower/speed difference. Why? Nate's H4X.
First, Nate can enter the planck length which grants him a sort of temporal super-speed. It allows him exist outside/in-between moments in time. It could also be interpreted as functioning similarly to a time-stop (which is something Nate can also do in a localized area, see Cable v1 #30). What's even better is that Nate can drag others with him into it. For instance, he dragged Mimic with him in Dark X-Men #3. He can likely drag Vulcan with him in there, and they can proceed to go to town on team two.
Secondly, Nate can exist as a disembodied consciousness even if his body is destroyed. (He possessed Norman as well.) He can make himself a new body if his original is destroyed through the use of psi-contsructs. He can also bring others back to life through this method, Maddie for instance. I believe Nate also used this method to bring Gwen Stacy back for a while. So, if Vulcan is killed before they can enter the planck length Nate can possibly bring him back.
Thirdly, defeat via ring-out. Shaman Nate can teleport himself and others into different realities/universes.
Taken from X-Man #73
http://img641.imageshack.us/img641/4392/53410289.jpg
http://img139.imageshack.us/img139/5382/99740598.jpgHeck, pre-Shaman Nate can even time travel in the 1996 X-Man Annual. He chased Sugarman into the Age of Apocalyse time-line, after Sugarman used Nate's powers to open a portal there somehow.
Planck time? Hal can stop time totally and superman can overpower time stop via superspeed. Hal stops time around vulcan and nate, game over.
Both hal and superman can cross dimensions and hal can time travel too.
Originally posted by Falcon Man
Anyway, I'm going to continue to assume this is Nate in his prime.Do either Superman or the Green Lantern have a counter for Nathaniel's teleportation, planck length, and other numerous abilities? Do they have a way to kill his consciousness/spirit to keep him from coming back? If not, Nate and Vulcan win.
Would like to point out that Nate can also effect incorporeals with his psionics. He was able to shred Xavier's astral body in X-Man #10, and overwhelm him telepathically.
Originally posted by KingD19
Vulcan absorbs every bit of energy and heat vision GL and Supes use. Hell he could probably draw the sunlight directly out of Clark's body.
Originally posted by abhilegend
You think that's impressive? Destroying moons and shit? Superman has destroyed earth via shockwaves of his punches.Planck time? Hal can stop time totally and superman can overpower time stop via superspeed. Hal stops time around vulcan and nate, game over.
Both hal and superman can cross dimensions and hal can time travel too.
Superman knocks him the phuck out.
Good luck for him working that on hal. A sun eater tried that on superman and failed.
show me an instance where superman has crossed dimensions under his own power ( excluding precrisis) you're also disregarding the fact that Nate is capable of reality warping, and a multiversal telepath
and Vulcan could drain Lantern , rather pretty handily, likewise nate is capable draining energies as well, mental energies to be precise, therefore leaving the body of the opponent as an empty husk
Originally posted by Mr.SunKing
[b]if time manipulation could be overpowered by superspeed, Wally essentially wouldn't have any issues with zoom, seeing that's not the case time manipulation and superspeed are two different things, Supes isn't overriding time manip/doing a thing to Nate in planck time, also Nate can exist OUTSIDE of time, more than just just time traveling
yes superman has destroyed earth with his punches, despite the fact the earth still exist, seems sensible to meyes superman can knock out a being that is comprised of pure psionic energy/intangible that can't be harmed by physical means, makes perfect sense
show me an instance where superman has crossed dimensions under his own power ( excluding precrisis) you're also disregarding the fact that Nate is capable of reality warping, and a multiversal telepath
and Vulcan could drain Lantern , rather pretty handily, likewise nate is capable draining energies as well, mental energies to be precise, therefore leaving the body of the opponent as an empty husk [/B]
Nate was still knocked out many times but if you really want to know superman has knocked out cyborg superman many times who is nothing but a disembodied energy in a cyborg suit. Superman has gone intangible and affected intangible beings. He sent an entire planet to another dimension in AOS 17 and escaped another dimension in MOS 90. Like I said hal would beat the phuck out of vulcan worse than havok and black bolt. He's done reality warping once and he's a planetary telepath at best, lulz at being multiversal telepath. If we're using random abilities showed once and twice, superman brings both nate and vulcan to theta state and beats their ass there or sing them out of existance or hal just use a krona buster on both.
Originally posted by abhilegend
Two different things altogether. Zoom doesn't stop time, he slows it down. How did you conclude that is just baffling. Nate can go planck time all he wants when hal stops time altogether and ares still ripped nate a new hole. Don't run your mouth before you know the context. Earth was getting destroyed with each punch and getting rebuilt again.Nate was still knocked out many times but if you really want to know superman has knocked out cyborg superman many times who is nothing but a disembodied energy in a cyborg suit. Superman has gone intangible and affected intangible beings. He sent an entire planet to another dimension in AOS 17 and escaped another dimension in MOS 90. Like I said hal would beat the phuck out of vulcan worse than havok and black bolt. He's done reality warping once and he's a planetary telepath at best, lulz at being multiversal telepath. If we're using random abilities showed once and twice, superman brings both nate and vulcan to theta state and beats their ass there or sing them out of existance or hal just use a krona buster on both.
and he's far beyond a planetary telepath, just because certain instances doesn't call for such a feat doesn't mean it cant be replicated, nonetheless he's a very powerful telepath that was capable of tricking qabiri himself someone that would most likley wipe the floor with supes, and post the scans of him sending planets to another dimension because i would like the know the whole context of the situation, you were saying?
Originally posted by Mr.SunKing
[b]i never stated zoom stopped time, that was your own implication/conclusion, anywho(i forgot which issue) but in regard to zoom slowing don time, his time bible simultaneously exist in and out of time apparently, and you're missing the point, existing out of time and manipulating it are two different instances, nonetheless nate has demonstrated both, and and still "destroyed" and "destroying are two different things, once is a completion while the other is a process, obviously it all didn't happen at once, so possible you're the one that shouldn't "run your mouth" or font, secondly nate isn't merely just intangible, phasing is simply moving your molecules through the open spaces of other ones, nate exist as a conscience that could still affect the corporeal world, as i said they have no means to put him downand he's far beyond a planetary telepath, just because certain instances doesn't call for such a feat doesn't mean it cant be replicated, nonetheless he's a very powerful telepath that was capable of tricking qabiri himself someone that would most likley wipe the floor with supes, and post the scans of him sending planets to another dimension because i would like the know the whole context of the situation, you were saying?
[/B]
Originally posted by abhilegend
Two different things altogether. Zoom doesn't stop time, he slows it down. How did you conclude that is just baffling. Nate can go planck time all he wants when hal stops time altogether and ares still ripped nate a new hole. Don't run your mouth before you know the context. Earth was getting destroyed with each punch and getting rebuilt again.Nate was still knocked out many times but if you really want to know superman has knocked out cyborg superman many times who is nothing but a disembodied energy in a cyborg suit. Superman has gone intangible and affected intangible beings. He sent an entire planet to another dimension in AOS 17 and escaped another dimension in MOS 90. Like I said hal would beat the phuck out of vulcan worse than havok and black bolt. He's done reality warping once and he's a planetary telepath at best, lulz at being multiversal telepath. If we're using random abilities showed once and twice, superman brings both nate and vulcan to theta state and beats their ass there or sing them out of existance or hal just use a krona buster on both.
No, Nate does reality warping quite a bit; even in the early issues of X-Man he did things like accidentally making Maddie's thoughts real through the use of his psionics. It's a part of his power-set. Planck length has been described as stepping outside of time. There's a good chance it can counter time-stops.
Also, I'm not saying Nate and Vulcan beat them in destructive power. Rather, through ring-out or telepathy. Through their exotic abilities.
Also, Nate does in fact have a multiversal telepathy feat where he linked someone's mind with their alternate selves. Here it is.
Taken from X-Man #74
http://img194.imageshack.us/img194/7843/93425381.jpg
http://img130.imageshack.us/img130/1976/54976389.jpg
http://img683.imageshack.us/img683/5890/93734055.jpg
Shaman Nate is definitely above Xavier and Martian Manhunter in the mind game.
Superman knocks him the phuck out.
Um, how? Care showing me a feat where Superman killed an incorporeal/insubstantial being? If you do then I'm perfectly fine with conceding.
Originally posted by abhilegend
Dude, use punctuation next time. You are incoherent. As for that planet scene
also supes was aided, he needed to know the exact frequency in order to perform that feat something that most likely won't be available for this battle
Originally posted by Mr.SunKing
[b]guy,i forgot to insert the periods, you'll live
anywho, that's a pretty impressive feat actually, and i'm assuming these feats are cannon to the mainstream/continuity? also what title and issue is this from? if you don't mind tellingalso supes was aided, he needed to know the exact frequency in order to perform that feat something that most likely won't be available for this battle
[/B]
Originally posted by Falcon Man
No, Nate does reality warping quite a bit; even in the early issues of X-Man he did things like accidentally making Maddie's thoughts real through the use of his psionics. It's a part of his power-set. Planck length has been described as stepping outside of time. There's a good chance it can counter time-stops.Also, I'm not saying Nate and Vulcan beat them in destructive power. Rather, through ring-out or telepathy. Through their exotic abilities.
Also, Nate does in fact have a multiversal telepathy feat where he linked someone's mind with their alternate selves. Here it is.
Taken from X-Man #74
http://img194.imageshack.us/img194/7843/93425381.jpg
http://img130.imageshack.us/img130/1976/54976389.jpg
http://img683.imageshack.us/img683/5890/93734055.jpgShaman Nate is definitely above Xavier and Martian Manhunter in the mind game.
Um, how? Care showing me a feat where Superman killed an incorporeal/insubstantial being? If you do then I'm perfectly fine with conceding.
He nearly killed hank henshaw who is just like nate a disembodied energy at this point inside a cyborg body. Nate still had a body and is still prone to get knocked out IIRC. He also koed lightning lord of LOSV who is just pure lightning in his powered form.
In range at least.
In potency Nate's telepathy is above Xavier's.
Originally posted by abhilegend
That's not reality warping. That's pulling things out of astral plane, impressive but not the same. Planck length is the shortest length of time and its not stepping out of time. Now that's impressive but I'm not sure what makes that more impressive than people who mindrape martian manhunter and fails at doing that to superman (Despero, Hector Hammond).He nearly killed hank henshaw who is just like nate a disembodied energy at this point inside a cyborg body. Nate still had a body and is still prone to get knocked out IIRC. He also koed lightning lord of LOSV who is just pure lightning in his powered form.
Alright, I would still like to see those scans though. Also, technically Nate's body would be incorporeal and ghost like--astral body thing--whatever you want to call it (in other words not made of energy) but I wouldn't be surprised if Superman has punched ghosts before or other abstract/magical beings.
Also, looking at that resistance feat I can see telepathy being ineffective on Superman.
There's still the option of cross-universal ring out by Nate. Since I haven't seen any universal crossing for Superman. Though, if he beats Nate before he can do it, it would be a moot point.
Also, the planck is stepping out of time.
Taken from Dark X-Men #3
http://img411.imageshack.us/img411/1583/darkxmen003014.jpg
http://img202.imageshack.us/img202/2325/darkxmen003015.jpg
http://img708.imageshack.us/img708/3186/darkxmen003016.jpg
http://img192.imageshack.us/img192/8082/darkxmen003017.jpg
In the third part, it's explicitly stated: "The combat takes place out of time. In the 'planck length' between moments."
Originally posted by Falcon Man
In range at least.In potency Nate's telepathy is above Xavier's.
Alright, I would still like to see those scans though. Also, technically Nate's body would be incorporeal and ghost like--astral body thing--whatever you want to call it (in other words not made of energy) but I wouldn't be surprised if Superman has punched ghosts before or other abstract/magical beings.
Also, looking at that resistance feat I can see telepathy being ineffective on Superman.
There's still the option of cross-universal ring out by Nate. Since I haven't seen any universal crossing for Superman. Though, if he beats Nate before he can do it, it would be a moot point.
Also, the planck is stepping out of time.
Taken from Dark X-Men #3
http://img411.imageshack.us/img411/1583/darkxmen003014.jpg
http://img202.imageshack.us/img202/2325/darkxmen003015.jpg
http://img708.imageshack.us/img708/3186/darkxmen003016.jpg
http://img192.imageshack.us/img192/8082/darkxmen003017.jpgIn the third part, it's explicitly stated: "The combat takes place out of time. In the 'planck length' between moments."
Originally posted by abhilegend
Inorite?
http://s1113.photobucket.com/albums/k508/abhilegend/Superman/?action=view¤t=NanosecondInteraction1.jpg
http://s1113.photobucket.com/albums/k508/abhilegend/Superman/?action=view¤t=NanosecondInteraction2.jpg
Originally posted by abhilegend
I direct you to planet-dimension feat posted above. He's also escaped an alternate dimension in MOS 90 which I can't post atm. Believe it or not, he's done those before. Check this outBefore you say anything, that's post crisis not pre crisis.
Alright, that shows he's immune to time dilation but that's not what entering the 'planck length' does. The one it effects are Nate and anyone that he drags with him, inadvertently giving them a sort temporal speed boost.
The planet-dimension feat shows Superman exorcising a phantom parallel earth via super-fast specific frequency vibrations, to keep it from colliding with his earth. It doesn't show him traveling between realities, time-lines or universes.
I would like to also mention that Nate fought the Hulk before, so knocking him out won't be easy.
Taken from X-Man Annual 1998
http://img30.imageshack.us/img30/6823/xmanannual1998page23ima.jpg
http://img30.imageshack.us/img30/2643/xmanannual1998page24ima.jpg
http://img64.imageshack.us/img64/7408/xmanannual1998page25ima.jpg
http://img694.imageshack.us/img694/1862/xmanannual1998page26ima.jpg
http://img189.imageshack.us/img189/1466/xmanannual1998page27ima.jpg
http://img51.imageshack.us/img51/2697/xmanannual1998page28ima.jpg
He also has Vulcan for back up. That shouldn't be dismissed.
