Darth Bane vs. Starkiller

Originally posted by The_Tempest
No, they were on Byss, in the Imperial Citadel.

Ah, my mistake. I got confused with when they were fighting on his flagship.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
A nexus can exist in space: Palpatine's death left one in orbit over Endor. As to whether or not planet nexuses extend to the surrounding space, I'm not sure.

I would not imagine they extend that far personally. No-ones ever drawn on a planetary nexus from orbit.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Again, Vader's mastery exceeded Marek's as well but he still lost both fights.

Banes mastery exceeds Vaders though, so this is a false comparison. As I've pointed out, Bane's Force powers have been shown to shown to be more devastating than Galens in terms of damage.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
According to whom?

Simple logic. If he can disintegrate a dozen beings with the orbalisks then he should still be capable of doing it to at least one person without them unless the orbalisks multiply his power over twelve times, which is absurd enough to write it off as a non-possibility. Unless you believe that its a question of skill, in which case theres nothing suggesting the orbalisks increase his darkside mastery.

Besides, this thread takes place upon Ambria, so there is a darkside nexus for him to draw upon.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Banes mastery exceeds Vaders though,

Does it?

Originally posted by Nephthys
so this is a false comparison.

It isn't. I use Vader as an example to that superior Force mastery alone is insufficient to guarantee or even make probable victory against Marek unless that superiority is proven to be substantial.

Originally posted by Nephthys
As I've pointed out, Bane's Force powers have been shown to shown to be more devastating than Galens in terms of damage.

Have they?

Originally posted by Nephthys
Simple logic. If he can disintegrate a dozen beings with the orbalisks then he should still be capable of doing it to at least one person without them unless the orbalisks multiply his power over twelve times, which is absurd enough to write it off as a non-possibility. Unless you believe that its a question of skill, in which case theres nothing suggesting the orbalisks increase his darkside mastery.

This one person in particular is a Force user who, by comparison of feats, is much more powerful than Bane or anyone Bane's ever crossed. That said, I recall the narration noting more than once that the boost afforded by the orbalisks was extreme. I can't assign a specific value to it, of course, but we have no means of determining either way.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Besides, this thread takes place upon Ambria, so there is a darkside nexus for him to draw upon.

Isn't the nexus sealed in a lake or something?

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Isn't the nexus sealed in a lake or something?

Yes it is, but it is trapped so deep within Lake Nadd (actual name according to Darth Bane Series) that it will make no difference in terms of Force strength. After he gets poisoned by Githany, Bane considers going into the lake for the power, but quickly decides against it due to how far he would need to swim to gain any power from the nexus.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Does it?

Originally posted by The_Tempest
It isn't. I use Vader as an example to that superior Force mastery alone is insufficient to guarantee or even make probable victory against Marek unless that superiority is proven to be substantial.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Have they?

Originally posted by The_Tempest
This one person in particular is a Force user who, by comparison of feats, is much more powerful than Bane or anyone Bane's ever crossed. That said, I recall the narration noting more than once that the boost afforded by the orbalisks was extreme. I can't assign a specific value to it, of course, but we have no means of determining either way.

The best I recall from Marek during combat situations is him destroying an AT-AT, catching an X-Wing in mid-air and killing a gigantic Rancor. And yes, he did beat Shaak Ti and Vader.

However, Sidious stopped Marek dead in his tracks with his Force Lightning alone. Now I will be reminded that Sidious was very proficient in Force Lightning but so was Bane.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Isn't the nexus sealed in a lake or something?

Nomi Sunrider was responsible for restricting dark side nexus in this world.

Whenever you post, I entertain myself Six Degrees of Kevin BaconDarth Revan to deduce your motivation for posting and thereby reducing the quality of discussion to its lowest possible figure. Let's see if I have this right: Darth Bane studied from the Holocron of Darth Revan whereas Vader was taught by Sidious who, in turn, was trained by Plagueis, who is only known to have mentioned Revan and once at that. Per the rules of the game, you are bound to defend Bane.

Well played.

SWL
Actually Vader's command of the Force got restricted in practice due to his mechanical parts; he could not use several offensive Force applications that would have helped his position in combat situations otherwise. In contrast, Bane had no such restrictions so he is in a better position to deal with Marek.

Besides Force lightning, what powers were proscribed by Vader's various mechanical parts?

SWL
Unfortunately, you overlooked Vader's shortcoming in this aspect as pointed above.

No, I just didn't make the [dumb] assumption that Vader's mastery is in question because he's not fully organic, unless we're to assume that every Force user with more organic limbs is more masterful than Vader.

SWL
Causing a Temple to collapse rings any bells?

No, but that this happened on Lehon, a Force nexus, should ring one or two for you.

SWL
Debatable.

Not really.

SWL
The best I recall from Marek during combat situations is him destroying an AT-AT, catching an X-Wing in mid-air and killing a gigantic Rancor. And yes, he did beat Shaak Ti and Vader.

Bereft of enhancing objects like a nexus and orbalisks, that's beyond what Bane's done.

SWL
However, Sidious stopped him dead in his tracks with his Force Lightning alone. Now I will be reminded that Sidious was very proficient in Force Lightning but so was Bane.

Not a point in sight.

SWL
Yes, it is. This one was bad from Neb.

Don't be too hard on Neph, his worst is still better than your best.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Whenever you post, I entertain myself Six Degrees of Kevin BaconDarth Revan to deduce your motivation for posting and thereby reducing the quality of discussion to its lowest possible figure. Let's see if I have this right: Darth Bane studied from the Holocron of Darth Revan whereas Vader was taught by Sidious who, in turn, was trained by Plagueis, who is only known to have mentioned Revan and once at that. Per the rules of the game, you are bound to defend Bane.

Well played.

Sidious taught Maul too. So should Maul be better then Bane?

Sidious tutoring Vader does not means much when the latter was restricted in his potential after becoming part machine.

Also, Bane learned from several Sith holocrons.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Besides Force lightning, what powers were proscribed by Vader's various mechanical parts?

Vader mainly employed Telekinetic Force applications during combat situations.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
No, I just didn't make the [dumb] assumption that Vader's mastery is in question because he's not fully organic, unless we're to assume that every Force user with more organic limbs is more masterful than Vader.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
No, but that this happened on Lehon, a Force nexus, should ring one or two for you.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Not really.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Bereft of enhancing objects like a nexus and orbalisks, that's beyond what Bane's done.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Not a point in sight.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Don't be too hard on Neph, his worst is still better than your best.

I have debating history with Nephthys and I have held my own against him.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
I do not understand that how you have figured Revan as a motive for my argument in favor of Bane in this thread?

By reading through your other arguments.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Please try to step out from this kind of prejudice.

I'll try.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Sidious taught Maul too. So should this make Maul better then Bane?

Of course not. But we're not playing Six Degrees of Darth Sidious, now are we?

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Also, Bane learned from several Sith holocrons.

I sense that you're trying to make a point, so please make it. Learning from holocrons, besides being irrelevant, doesn't guarantee a victory in any respect. Dooku lost to Anakin, who's never studied any Sith holocrons; Atris lost to the Exile likewise; Maul to Obi-Wan, etc. and so forth.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
I do not recall Vader performing Force Drain either but Bane could. Isn't Vader restricted against offensive Force applications (involving pure dark side energies) in general?

This is a false equivalency. Vader not performing Force drain does not translate to inability to do so. Vader's restrictions prevent him from ever mastering his full potential, but that does not preclude the idea that his mastery exceeds that of other figures.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Vader mainly employed Telekinetic Force applications during combat situations.

So do Jedi.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
If the said Force user is powerful then it becomes an issue. Like it or not, Vader lost lot of power and potential after his injuries on Mustafar. This is how George Lucas promoted him.

Vader losing access to his previous potential isn't in question. The idea that that makes him automatically beneath Bane in Force mastery is.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Convince me.

All of Bane's greatest combat feats can be attributed in part to orbalisks and Force nexuses. Bereft of that, I'm unaware of a single feat ascribed to him that Starkiller has not matched or exceeded.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Do not forget that Bane is extremely skilled lightsaber duelist and is very proficient in Force Lightning. Both of these factors can help him against Marek.

Still no point in sight.

If TFU games aren't canonical, let me know, but according to the first game Starkiller was able to pull a STAR DESTROYER out of the sky on Raxus Prime. That is a whole hell of a lot bigger than an X-Wing fighter. At the same time, however, Galen never fought an AT-AT, he fought multiple AT-STs at once and still came out unscathed. Again, not sure how canonical the games are for TFU, so please let me know if they aren't.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
By reading through your other arguments.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
I'll try.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Of course not. But we're not playing Six Degrees of Darth Sidious, now are we?

Originally posted by The_Tempest
I sense that you're trying to make a point, so please make it. Learning from holocrons, besides being irrelevant, doesn't guarantee a victory in any respect. Dooku lost to Anakin, who's never studied any Sith holocrons; Atris lost to the Exile likewise; Maul to Obi-Wan, etc. and so forth.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
This is a false equivalency. Vader not performing Force drain does not translate to inability to do so. Vader's restrictions prevent him from ever mastering his full potential, but that does not preclude the idea that his mastery exceeds that of other figures.

Vader may have known how to perform Force Drain or another application involving pure dark side energies but his mechanical parts prevented/restricted him from doing so.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
So do Jedi.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Vader losing access to his previous potential isn't in question. The idea that that makes him automatically beneath Bane in Force mastery is.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
All of Bane's greatest combat feats can be attributed in part to orbalisks and Force nexuses. Bereft of that, I'm unaware of a single feat ascribed to him that Starkiller has not matched or exceeded.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Still no point in sight.

Originally posted by jmoul
If TFU games aren't canonical, let me know, but according to the first game Starkiller was able to pull a STAR DESTROYER out of the sky on Raxus Prime. That is a whole hell of a lot bigger than an X-Wing fighter.

Originally posted by jmoul
At the same time, however, Galen never fought an AT-AT, he fought multiple AT-STs at once and still came out unscathed. Again, not sure how canonical the games are for TFU, so please let me know if they aren't.

In the novel, Marek managed to down on AT-ST with a Force push. And electrocuted all troops inside with Force lightning.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
But it is a feat involving absolute concentration or meditative behavior; something almost impossible to do during combat situation. Otherwise, Marek would have send Vader flying miles away from him with a Force push.

Galen was also in the midst of downing multiple TIE fighters and pulling the Destroyer down before more TIEs showed up. So it was, in a sense, a combat situation.

Originally posted by jmoul
If TFU games aren't canonical, let me know, but according to the first game Starkiller was able to pull a STAR DESTROYER out of the sky on Raxus Prime.

He didn't pull it out of the sky. It was already falling. He just altered it's direction. Still a pretty Uber feat though.

SWL
And where did I mention Revan in this thread?

Who says a prejudice has to manifest in every thread for you to have it?

SWL
Why you brought Sidious' tutoring in the first place? Concede that this was premature on your part.

facepalm

It was a joke. I was accusing you of defending Bane by virtue of his closer, direct connection to Revan compared to Vader's distant connection.

SWL
Your examples do not discredit my point. Knowledge is power. The greatest practitioners of the Force also happened to be well-informed or possess great knowledge of Sith or Jedi Lore.

You haven't made a point to discredit.

SWL
Try to comprehend this statement of mine: "Actually Vader's command of the Force got restricted in practice due to his mechanical parts; he could not use several (dark) offensive Force applications that would have helped his position in combat situations otherwise."

Vader may have known how to perform Force Drain or another application involving pure dark side energies but his mechanical parts prevented/restricted him from doing so.

As a native English speaker, odds are that I comprehend your sentence to a greater degree than you do. The only restriction you can conclusively name is Vader's inability to cast Force lightning. When you have more, let me know. Until then, it's irrelevant.

SWL
And some defeated Vader.

Still not a point in sight, minus the one that you didn't intend to make:

The idea that some Jedi (which ones, by the way?) can overcome Vader with a limited repertoire of abilities only furthers my argument that one does not need a wide range of powers to win a given fight.

SWL
His shortcomings are an issue. They cannot be/should not be overlooked.

If his shortcomings were a decisive disadvantage, Vader would lose every fight he's been in. The burden is on you to determine that his injuries put him at a disadvantage with Bane.

SWL
I can understand the Orbalisks part but I think that you are giving too much weightage to the impact of dark side nexus on one's ability.

What you think is irrelevant. Force nexuses enhance the available power of a Force user, which means that Bane cannot be said to produce such an effect elsewhere unless he's actually been shown to do so.

SWL
Those talents matter. Bane is more skilled lightsaber duelist then mechanical Vader

Prove it.

SWL
and is very proficient with Force Lightning.
He will be more challenging opponent to Marek then mechanical Vader.

This is again a false equivalency. Marek battled Shadow Guards, who were capable of using Force lightning in contrast to Vader, yet they weren't more challenging because of this fact. The ability to cast Force lightning does not make one a greater challenge than Vader.

Keep your next post on topic if you'd like a response.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Does it?

Did I motherfvcking stutter? Yes, b*tch, yes it does.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
It isn't. I use Vader as an example to that superior Force mastery alone is insufficient to guarantee or even make probable victory against Marek unless that superiority is proven to be substantial.

And the very fact that it is substantial is why I said it was a false comparison. You stupid prick!

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Have they?

I've already said that they have and why. English motherfvcker, do you speak it?!

Originally posted by The_Tempest
This one person in particular is a Force user who, by comparison of feats, is much more powerful than Bane or anyone Bane's ever crossed. That said, I recall the narration noting more than once that the boost afforded by the orbalisks was extreme. I can't assign a specific value to it, of course, but we have no means of determining either way.

Listen you excretable pile of EXCREMENT! Marek is not much more fvcking powerful than Bane and you fvcking know it. Marek has difficulty overpowering Vader, and Vader is not more powerful than Bane is, fvcktard. And show me the quote that says that the boost is extreme motherfvcker, cuz I ain't never seen that fvcking thing. Either way, it is grossly disingenuous (you fvck!) to suggest that because we're unsure that the feat is out. Common sense and fvcking logic dictate that the chance that Bane cannot replicate the feat on a smaller scale without the orbalisks is astronomically small. Besides which, its fvcking obvious that disintegration is a skill reliant on mastery, not power, which is the only fvcking thing the orbalisks give Bane. Raw power can't separate a beings individual particles, dat shit takes motherfvcking skill motherfvcker!

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Isn't the nexus sealed in a lake or something?

That didn't stop Zannah from making use of it in her battle with Bane.

I never miscalculate, worm. 🥷

Leave the Pulp Fiction references to Tzeentch. You're not black enough, son.

In order:

no

no

yes I speak it but no

no, Marek is much more powerful than Bane and if disintegration is based on mastery, Marek's mastery eclipses Bane's: since the objects he's disintegrated are much larger. (you miscalculated lolz)

you'll get the excerpt/s in due time

when and how

Originally posted by jmoul
If TFU games aren't canonical, let me know, but according to the first game Starkiller was able to pull a STAR DESTROYER out of the sky on Raxus Prime. That is a whole hell of a lot bigger than an X-Wing fighter. At the same time, however, Galen never fought an AT-AT, he fought multiple AT-STs at once and still came out unscathed. Again, not sure how canonical the games are for TFU, so please let me know if they aren't.

Nope it was an AT-AT:

'Automated weapons emplacements spotted him instantly. Red weapons fire stitched lines of explosions across the station's patchwork hull as he ducked between the AT-AT's massive legs. Scooping up components from the nearest construction conveyor belt, he threw a series of high-speed missiles at the turrets, knocking five out of commission. A stream of Sith lightning put the AT-AT itself out of action, and a good, solid shove tipped it over with a crash, providing cover for the Wookiees when the time came to cross.'

God, those books (especially TFU1) were bad. Like Karpyshyn-level bad.

We can only hope that was a Force Push. If Marek just shoved an AT-AT over I'm out.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
when and how

In her battle with Bane. Her Naughty Tantacles attack bro.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
He didn't pull it out of the sky. It was already falling. He just altered it's direction. Still a pretty Uber feat though.

Actually it was flying toward him, but stopped at optimal range and launching distance for TIEs. It was from the point where it stopped that Galen pulled it down to the planet, so it wasn't actually falling out of the sky

Neph
We can only hope that was a Force Push. If Marek just shoved an AT-AT over I'm out.

I believe it's fair to assume telekinesis is the method by which this was achieved.

Neph

In her battle with Bane.

Didn't she break them out first or something?

Neph
Her Naughty Tantacles attack bro.

God, those books (especially RoT and DoE) were bad. Like Karpyshyn-level bad.

Originally posted by jmoul
Actually it was flying toward him, but stopped at optimal range and launching distance for TIEs. It was from the point where it stopped that Galen pulled it down to the planet, so it wasn't actually falling out of the sky

Do you have a source for that?