Darth Bane vs. Starkiller

Originally posted by Ascendancy
I don't know if I agree with you in the substantially more powerful quote.

You don't have to, but it doesn't make it any less true.

Originally posted by Ascendancy
More raw power? Yes. More prowess in directing destructive power in combat? No. Unless both are going to go Super Saiyan and unleash everything that they have at a distance with no worry for destroying themselves in the process I give it to Bane.

Given that this is typically how Marek fights, power over finesse, I'm not sure you have a point. Where is the risk of Marek destroying himself?

Originally posted by Ascendancy
For all the raw strength Galen may have had it wasn't enough to take down either Vader or the Emperor permanently.

As Bane is neither Vader nor the Emperor, this is less of a rebuttal than it is a reflection of the obvious. Sidious is confirmed by canon to be more powerful than Bane as far back as The Phantom Menace and Vader, at the very least, has the feats and showings to rival Bane.

Originally posted by Ascendancy
As Neph said in regards to ability, Bane may have been near a source of darkside energy to maintain some of his attacks, but he would certainly be able to manage them without the nexus as well.

There is no evidence for this.

Originally posted by Ascendancy
If not, then there are a lot of things Sidious should have never been able to pull of in normal situations either.

Which is why I cheerfully volunteered the idea that Sidious is unable to replicate feats attained on dark side nexuses. Of course, it's a paltry concession for me to make, given the significant advantage Sidious enjoys in terms of exposure. He still has countless notable feats for any debater to draw from. Bane, on the other hand, does not benefit from such a lofty position.

Originally posted by Ascendancy
I'll be glad to give Marek more credence with some examples of him killing Dark Lords or Jedi Masters of top tier power.

How much credence you decide to give Marek is inconsequential; you confess openly to "riding" his "cajones" and have made no attempt to conceal your inclination. The bottom line is that the majority of Bane's highest showings derive from dark side nexuses and orbalisks, each of which enhance his power considerably per the text. Marek's abilities exceed Bane's by a substantial degree in all but swordsmanship.

With respect to the caliber of his enemies, Marek has fought and bested Shaak Ti, a prolific swordsman and Council Master, as well as Kazdan Paratus, who was capable of destroying "entire legions" of Confederacy droids in single combat (per TFU's in-game databank), not to mention Vader himself, whose feats eclipse Bane's own.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Who says a prejudice has to manifest in every thread for you to have it?

In short: you made a premature judgement about my intentions.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
facepalm

It was a joke. I was accusing you of defending Bane by virtue of his closer, direct connection to Revan compared to Vader's distant connection.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
You haven't made a point to discredit.

In the nutshell, a holocron can pave way for greater understanding of the Force, which in turn, can positively influence the combat ability of a Force-wielder but the whole process takes time. This process entirely depends upon what kind of knowledge is contained in a holocron; if the knowledge contained in a holocron is about combat applications then it will definitely help a Force-wielder who had no knowledge of such combat applications previously.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
As a native English speaker, odds are that I comprehend your sentence to a greater degree than you do. The only restriction you can conclusively name is Vader's inability to cast Force lightning. When you have more, let me know. Until then, it's irrelevant.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Still not a point in sight, minus the one that you didn't intend to make:

The idea that some Jedi (which ones, by the way?) can overcome Vader with a limited repertoire of abilities only furthers my argument that one does not need a wide range of powers to win a given fight.

Similarly;

2. You think that Marek's command of the Force was lesser then that of Vader when he defeated him on Death Star I?

Please ponder over your fallacies.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
If his shortcomings were a decisive disadvantage, Vader would lose every fight he's been in. The burden is on you to determine that his injuries put him at a disadvantage with Bane.

If Vader faces an opponent who cannot exploit his weaknesses then the former has good chance to win.

However, Vader is certainly disadvantaged when pitted against someone like Bane. Chances are good for Bane to subdue Vader with his lightsaber combat skills or his proficiency in Force Lightning.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
What you think is irrelevant. Force nexuses enhance the available power of a Force user, which means that Bane cannot be said to produce such an effect elsewhere unless he's actually been shown to do so.

However, the extent of benefits acquired from a Force nexus seem to be dependent upon how a Force-wielder manages to exploit/utilize it. Force-wielders with knowledge of sorcery can reap greater benefits from a Force nexus but this may often require some level of preparation. Malak, on the basis of his knowledge of Sith Sorcery and Star Forge's technology, managed to ensure much greater supply of reserves of energies for him to draw upon should the need arise. Zannah, on the basis of her knowledge of Sith Sorcery, managed to use the dark side Force nexus on Ambria to summon tendrils that would ultimately grant her advantage over Bane in combat.

However, Force nexus by itself doesn't transforms a Force-wielder in to Force God or something as previously pointed out by me. Otherwise, Dooku would have killed Yoda on Vjun and Malak would have killed Revan on Star Forge. So their are numerous examples that affirm this point.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Prove it.

Now prove that mechanical Vader was fast, agile and skilled enough to match Bane's prowess in lightsaber combat.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
This is again a false equivalency. Marek battled Shadow Guards, who were capable of using Force lightning in contrast to Vader, yet they weren't more challenging because of this fact. The ability to cast Force lightning does not make one a greater challenge than Vader.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Keep your next post on topic if you'd like a response.

"Fear leads to anger; anger leads to hate; hate leads to suffering."

Originally posted by The_Tempest
(The feat with the Salvation is just incredible: erecting Force shields to withstand the ferocious heat and raindrops hitting with the force of thermal detonators while simultaneously rooting himself to the ship, not to mention holding the frigate together for much of its final journey, then the final act of disintegrating it on a dime? Unbelievable.)

That was a completely insane feat.

But my problem is after all that he couldn't beat Vader. I mean WTF?!

He did beat Vader though.

Originally posted by Nephthys
He did beat Vader though.

By pretending to surrender, then shooting Lightning where Juno had made a little scar.

In combat they were equal. Talking about TFUII.

Feats of Bane and Marek can't be adequatly compared.

In Karpyshyn books even a 6 year old children before getting any Force training can vaporize human hands, dominate adult Sith Lords or drive insane two Jedi. So there is nothing surprizing that Bane's power is portrayed so destructive. Such things didn't happen in films and all other book authors follow the same logic. The only known example was pointed out by Nephtys, which comes from DE - another source with heavily exagerated feats. But in books Luke that dismanteled droid army in DE with wave of hand over 10 years later struggled a lot against single droideka and managed to destroy it only with help of Mara.

Also, only in Karpyshyn books a Force user can get exhausted from a single instant Force attack like Bane. In books of other authors Force users can get exhausted only by chanelling Force. Moreover, Bane's super powerful attack was completely blocked by K'azim. In comparison Yoda using only friction of his power successfuly Force blasted Sidious. If we compare literally, assumption that a semi-powerful Sith has better Force defenses than Sidious with his immense potential and far superior Mastery of the Force is outright absurd.

The only way to make realistic comparison is by analyzing quality of training.

Bane started training in adult age, which allowed him to master combat and Force mastery much faster. Marek's training was from childhood but for longer period. Both drilled combat for very long time, so it is imposible to say which one is more skilled.
Bane fought with Kazim that could be compared to Dooku and couldn't outskill him.
Marek fought Vader and couldn't outskill him either until he managed to take psycholigical advantage.

In Force don't know about Bane but Marek demonstrated skill even above Dooku. While Marek has got far more power, the only advantage he will get is larger Force reserves.

I bet on Marek but it would be a good fight.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
By pretending to surrender, then shooting Lightning where Juno had made a little scar.

In combat they were equal. Talking about TFUII.

That's not exactly accurate: Starkiller would have kept fighting had Vader not held Juno hostage and forced him to stand down. It's not as though exploiting Juno's actions were his only recourse. Hell, in the video game (and maybe the graphic novel) that's not how the duel ends anyway.

Vader definitely held his own against Marek, though.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Excellent.

Although given that he can only defeat Vader after he gains clarity and embraces the lightside, I wouldn't ignore the probability of it being true.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Your point? Vaapad requires Mace Windu to succumb to the thrill and rush of combat, it doesn't make him any less of a Jedi.

Oh come on, could that be anymore of a false comparison?! Vaapad is a specially designed technique that he uses so that he can feel that feel that way and not fall. Plus, all the other Vaapad users fell to the darkside, remember? With Galen he obviously turned away from the darkside. No special technique was used, he simply gave up his anger at Vader and became calm. Its blatantly trying to parallel the ending of RotJ imo.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
But you do not claim that his powers fluctuated. So if there is no difference between a light side/dark side Marek, then there's no reason to assume he can't use such powers.

When did I say that he couldn't? We are talking to what feats he has access to. The matter of his alignment became irrelevent when you pointed out that Ambria is a nexus for both the light and dark sides.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
It's as though you're arguing Dooku can't use Force lightning until the Battle of Geonosis instead of, say, the beginning of the film because he hasn't displayed the power until that exact time.

I would never be so disingenuous to argue that any well-trained Sith couldn't use Force Lightning since its a standard part of their powerset (although we've yet to see it from Maul oddly enough). You are correct though in that I would ignore that feat and not use it to determine Dooku's skill with Force Lightning.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Who says it was a clone?

In the Dark Thunder cinematics that you unlock in the game you can see Vader showing the original Galen Mareks corpse to the Dark Apprentice:

Originally posted by The_Tempest
According to whom?

Me.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Technically, both broke the Rule of Two, as Vader trained the Starkiller in the sequel to be his apprentice as well.

He was never the true apprentice in the sequel though, the Dark Apprentice was.

Anyway, perhaps we should ask the threadstarter which Starkiller this is.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Which was still a great deal more than Bane has ever disintegrated, especially unaided.

Lol. Ok, firstly we don't know the size of the fragment that Galen destroyed so we can't actually say that.

Secondly, 'unaided?' And Galen wasn't aided in his task? The ship was falling apart already and the text notes that 'The stricken ship was glowing red, with the last shreds of plasma still clinging to it like flames.' Metal gets softer when heated numbnuts.

And thirdly, the part where it says that he 'blew it into a billion pieces' is obviously hyperbole. You've never heard of something 'exploding into a million pieces' before? Juno observes afterwards that 'A cloud of hot metallic fragments was spreading across the city. Dense splinters rained from it, hissing where they landed. Heavier fragments struck with more substantial thuds, near and far.' She also observes at the time that 'the Salivation exploded into fiery pieces.' Obviously, he did not disintegrate it, but rather used the Force to blow it up.

3 strikes and you're out. Good game though, that almost had me worried.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Vader himself, whose feats eclipse Bane's own.

Imma break my foot off in yo narrow ass.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
That's not exactly accurate: Starkiller would have kept fighting had Vader not held Juno hostage and forced him to stand down. It's not as though exploiting Juno's actions were his only recourse. Hell, in the video game (and maybe the graphic novel) that's not how the duel ends anyway.

Yes the Juno factor was clearly present in the fight. Marek was trying to get to her while he was fighting Vader.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Vader definitely held his own against Marek, though.

This is my issue. With the insane feats you pointed out it's hard to fathom how it was such a competitive fight.

I know Vader is powerful, but those feats of Stakiller's were among the greatest (most insane) in the whole saga.

Originally posted by Nephthys

In the Dark Thunder cinematics that you unlock in the game you can see Vader showing the original Galen Mareks corpse to the Dark Apprentice:

Makes no sense. Why didn't Vader just clone himself instead then?!

Why would he clone himself? The clone would easily eclipse him in power with its Chosen Oneness. He's a moron for even trying with Marek.

Originally posted by Nephthys
The clone would easily eclipse him in power with its Chosen Oneness.

That never seemed to bother him. He wanted Marek/Luke for their potential to be more powerful than him, and overthrow the Emporer with/for him.

He would just try to Psychologically control them.

Dark Apprentice is not canon.

Originally posted by Darth Truculent
Dark Apprentice is not canon.

The story was a possible future based on Starkiller's choices. He actually saw visions of it. Which means certain things about that story must be true even in the correct continuity.

Originally posted by Nephthys
And thirdly, the part where it says that he 'blew it into a billion pieces' is obviously hyperbole.

And Bane disintegrating the techno-beasts isn't?

Originally posted by Nephthys
In the Dark Thunder cinematics that you unlock in the game you can see Vader showing the original Galen Mareks corpse to the Dark Apprentice:

In all honesty, I thought that those suggested the guy in the second game was the original. That picture simply shows Starkiller in stasis not his corpse and that's what the Dark Starkiller's "I understand now" is about...

Not that it matters. Until we have actual canonical evidence I'd suggest we say the characters are different.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Makes no sense. Why didn't Vader just clone himself instead then?!

Yeah it's pretty dumb. Hell, he could even clone replacement parts for himself and become whole again.

Originally posted by ares834
And Bane disintegrating the techno-beasts isn't?

It specifically uses the word 'disintegrate', so no.

^ Ok so maybe it was a million pieces. Whatever. Point is he blew up the whole ship into tiny pieces with a thought.

It wasn't the whole ship, the ship was already falling apart and was being superheated. And It was likely not close to a million given the size of some of them.

Originally posted by ares834
Yeah it's pretty dumb. Hell, he could even clone replacement parts for himself and become whole again.

Originally posted by Nephthys
It specifically uses the word 'disintegrate', so no.

So because it uses the word "disintegrate" it can't be hyperbole? That doesn't make any sense to me. Anyway, when an object is disintegrated that doesn't require it to be broken up at a molecular level, merely broken up into parts.

Originally posted by Arhael
No, he couldn't. In SW such operation is impossible, not after lightsaber burns at least.

Where is this from? Sure, it may be impossible to graft directly to the burn but one could remove more flesh and remove the burn.

Also, I'm fairly certain clonetroopers use clone replacement parts.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Anyway, perhaps we should ask the threadstarter which Starkiller this is.

I was referring to the original Starkiller, not any of the clones.