Sids, Dooku, Vader vs Malgus, Revan, Bane

but that Sidious is superior to the Zabraks separately and combined—I’m in agreement with him.

"Not if his opponent's speed is so far beyond his that his style becomes irrelevant. How can Kenobi defend against strikes that are just too fast for him?

Unless Kenobi's style magically increases his speed (it doesn't), he's not lasting long against Sidious."

Shadow Conspiracy even goes so far as to indicate that the Zabraks were constrained by the limited space: having to coordinate so as to avoid wounding one another, depriving Savage of his primary advantages (his strength, size, and berserker-rage).

There is no reason to believe Obi-Wan is, ultimately, equal to or superior than either of the brothers individually—let alone combined.

In contrast, Sidious lacks Obi-Wan’s favorable environment: the duel begins inside an expansive throne room and concludes outside on the palace steps, enabling the brothers to unleash themselves utterly. Despite this, Sidious is able to withstand their most powerful attacks despite the inherent disadvantage of Jar’Kai against outright aggressive maneuvers. Moreover, Shadow Conspiracy conveys each of the Zabraks’ sense of awe at Sidious, whom the text notes is “terrifying to behold.” Maul spends practically the entirety of the match glorifying his former Master, all but pausing the clash to furiously masturbate. If the text is reliable, Sidious is faster, more powerful, more skilled, and able to resist their combined strength.

Second, whether or not Sidious was “forced on the defensive” is not illustrated by the text. All that’s said is that “the three-pronged duel between Sidious, and Maul and Savage had moved, like some deadly ballet, from the throne room to the steps of the palace.” We don’t know the direction; if he led them out of the throne room or if they retreated. That Sidious turned aside blows from Maul and Savage doesn’t indicate nor require that he was forced to assume a defensive posture anymore than Dooku was forced to defend against Obi-Wan’s aggression in Attack of the Clones. The fact of the matter is that SIDIOUS_66 is quite right: when there is a lull in the fighting, it is because Sidious has elected not to press an advantage—he begins the duel by ragdolling the Zabraks with the Force but allows them to return to their feet; he “steps back” after killing Savage and allows the brothers a parting moment. When the fight resumes, the text indicates that Maul is “desperate” and is disarmed in quick succession. Even then, Sidious does not kill Maul outright but then uses the Force to literally wipe the floor and walls with him before giving him the same treatment he gives Luke in Return of the Jedi. Once and only once is Sidious noted to strain or struggle or exude effort—and that’s when he’s in simultaneous blade lock. In the next sentence? Maul observes his Master’s “terrible pleasure” and “grin.”

Arhael
Well, I never argued against that. I was arguing against his downplaying Kenobi to Fisto level and assumption that Sidious is too fast for Kenobi

SIDIOUS_66 has basis, however ridiculous, for concluding that Sidious is too fast for Obi-Wan. Mace Windu, purported to be the order's second most powerful and skilled Jedi Master, lost three combatants to Sidious before "he realized what happened" (The Complete Visual Dictionary) and only went toe-to-toe with Sidious due to an extraordinary and brief augmentation of his abilities due to Vaapad (ROTS novelization).

Likewise, I understand your reservations. Obi-Wan and Anakin went toe-to-toe with Dooku, who in turn grappled with Yoda, who enjoys parity with Sidious. It's a little more convoluted than SIDIOUS_66's reasoning, but I grasp the basis of it.

Arhael
Interesting. Can't comment on that as I didn't read the book, yet, doesn't seem to be the case in cartoon. Brothers attack Kenobi from opposite sides. Opress freely swings his lightsaber like a baseball bat and even jumps away from legs chopping move without hitting his head.

Opress swinging his lightsaber and jumping doesn't preclude the notion that they were being confined by space. That the Zabraks didn't look at the camera and note it for the audience's benefit doesn't mean anything.

Arhael
If defending against both brothers attacking from opposite sides as well as constantly driving each of them back with offensive saber combinations and kicks is not a demonstration of superiority then I don't know what is.

Which refuses to take into consideration the fact that Obi-Wan has lost to Maul and Opress separately before and that both Filoni and the website note a level of circumstance to his "victory." Essentially, you're asking me to refine the parameters to encompass the duel in "Revival" only, which is really no different from the sorts of things you're accusing SIDIOUS_66 of doing.

Arhael
Indeed text does not illustrate Sidious struggling, after all it's a narration from Maul. Neither it illustrates him defending "casually" as 66 claims. Yes, he takes pleasure and relishes every moment of their suffering and gives them lulls(that's what he is about). But does it really imply that he could fight any faster during the actual combat? The need to wait for an opening to Force blast Maul implies that he couldn't. That Sidious can rag-doll them with Force is no surprise, I was comparing strictly saber combat performance. Sidious66 claimed that Kenobi is much slower and whouldn't be able to keep up long with Sidious' speed, my whole argument is against that.

That's precisely the point: SIDIOUS_66 is interpreting these grins and deliberate pauses by Sidious to indicate a sense of playfulness on part of the elder Sith Lord, just as you interpret his keen exploitation of a weakness in Maul's defense as an indicator that he must take it to win the fight.

Personally, I don't think Sidious "lulz pwnedz0red" the brothers but I don't think he was fighting for his life either. As far as Obi-Wan vs. Sidious goes? You each have canonical basis for your claims. Welcome to the tragic inconsistency of this franchise; if you don't want to take characters at their highest depiction, the goal then becomes to bridge the gap between the two disparate showings.

Hey S66 firstly I would appreciate if we did this without bringing up history and resorting to personal attacks otherwise there's no point in getting into this.

Secondly let me just clarify my position on this. Which is that Sidious is besting the 2 of them together, but probably just barely, up until the point where he seperates Maul. Then IT IS a Stomp One on One.

These 2 are powerful, and together are a formidable threat even to Sidious. And so it is a great feat for Sidious. But alone they are outclassed against the most Powerful Sith of the PT and OT are.

I'd compare it to how Count Dooku was dealing with Opress and Ventress. Which some people do feel was a stomp which just shows everyone is going to see this differently too.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
This is right after Sidious force hurls them across the room, and waits for them to get back on their feet, anticipating their attacks.

Let's see:

"He raised his arms and both Maul and Savage flew through the air, smashing into the elegantly patterned walls of the royal chamber and crashing to the floor. Maul sprang to his feet and ignited his lightsaber. Savage did the same. The two Zabraks stared grimly at the hooded figure.

Sidious retrieved a pair of elegant-looking lightsabers from within the depths of his robes and ignited them."

I don't see where he waited for them. Maul is said to immediately jump back into the fight lightsaber ignited. Then Sidious brings out his 2 Sabers.

Anticipating their attacks? Isn't that exactly what Force users do? Yes Maul talks about how perfectly Sidious anticipates and parries. I doubt anyone would expect anything less.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
...and then Savage tries to rush Sidious while Sidious attention was still on Maul. Sidious then side-steps and blitzes Savage,

Your referring to this:

"Savage knew the dangers of facing the Sith Lord alone, and pressed the attack before Sidious could draw his hand back from Force-shoving Maul into the wall. Teeth bared, Savage windmilled his double saber, hoping to disarm Sidious or force him to the ground. If he did, that would allow the yellow-and-black Zabrak to follow his initial attack with a lightning-quick thrust that would penetrate Sidious's defenses and wound or even kill him.

Maul tried to shake off his attack, rocketing up from the floor. Sidious neatly side-stepped Savage's assault, drawing back as the massive Zabrak raised his double-bladed saber high to try to pummel im with it.

Savage didn't think Sidious was fast enough to take advantage of the brief opening in his defenses but he was wrong."

First of all it makes it clear that Savage KNEW it was a risky move to attack Sidious alone. But he tried it anyway because he though he could get him by surprise. But he didn't Instead it was Sidious who surprised him.

It was a stupid move tactically. He should have co-ordinated better with Maul.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
stops his attack and allows Maul to comfort his mortally injured brother.

Aside from the the fact that's obvious PIS(Plot Induced Stupidity) for Opress to have a proper death scene, do you have any idea how many In-Universe reasons there could be for that? Just a few:

1. Curiosity - Sidious wonders "Does Maul actually love this guy.."
2. Pride- Sidious wants to thrash Maul in fair combat one on one, and doesn't want to slice him from the side while he's morning over his brother.
3. GOD FORBID - Sidious uses the pause in the fight to take a rest and revitalize himself from the continuous fighting. GOD FORBID.

Since the passage is from Maul's perspective and not Sidious's, there's just no way to know.

But you shouldn't just speculate and make up Sidious's perspective yourself and expect us all to take Your Version of Sidious's perspective as Fact!

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
I love how you put words in my mouth. I never said the fight will be a 10 second stomp. Furthermore, why are you even putting so much emphasis on the length of a duel, when you were against it in the first place (Yoda vs. Dooku?)?

All I said was don't expect that. And what about Yoda vs Dooku.

To me a long fight suggests it's not a stomp or an easy victory. However a short fight doesn't necessarily mean stomp either. If both combatants are very offensive in the way they fight then it likely will be a short fight.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
You also need to stop with this "that's how I seen it, therefore that's how it happened."

What are you talking about? That's what your doing. Making your speculation and making it fact.

I'm giving direct proof from the passage that Sidious was Attempting to Overpower them the whole time. Apart from on Opress's death scene.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
You implied that Sidious was looking for an opportunity to separate the brothers throughout the entire duel, because he was unable to defeat them 1-on-2. Nothing suggests that.

LOL It's right here!!!

"It was the smallest stumble, easily corrected, but Sidious saw it- and pounced before Maul could draw himself back. Snarling, he reached out with the Force and slammed Maul against the wall, leaving him lying stunned in a heap."

I can't believe your just ignoring it like it's not there.

Originally posted by Arhael
It suggest of how skilled Sidious in sabers but nothing associated with word "casually". Attacking only when he found holes in their defenses means that otherwise his attacks would be pointless risk.

He is shown to struggle at the beginning of the fight. There's no reason to believe to only got easier for him from there.

Originally posted by Arhael
It seems pretty obvious that, when two efficient opponents attack you at the same time, there is not much room for counter-attacks. It's, also, obvious that those masters were nowhere as challenging. Remember that Jarkai is more suitable to fight multiple opponents, Sidious didn't use it just for your entertainment. The fact that he didn't even need Jarkai to kill those masters highlights their inferiority.

Yeah the fact that BOTH Sidious and Kenobi chose to use 2 Sabers to fight off Maul & Opress together shows it's not for entertainment but actually the most efficient way to fight 2 combatants.

Originally posted by Arhael
Are you really saying that because character makes pauses during fight he holds back?

That is his stance. But as far as I can tell the only significant pause is for Opress's death.

Originally posted by Arhael

Interesting. Can't comment on that as I didn't read the book, yet, doesn't seem to be the case in cartoon. Brothers attack Kenobi from opposite sides. Opress freely swings his lightsaber like a baseball bat and even jumps away from legs chopping move without hitting his head. 🙂

It says they had to stop getting in each others way, but nothing like that is shown on screen.

I would suggest the main disadvantage to Opress in that environment might be his use of the Force.

He can't elegantly Levitate or Force choke the way Maul can. He just uses Powerful Force Waves which would also hit Maul in that setting.

But in terms of Sabers, they have no excuse. They were simply getting bested by the more skilled swordsman.

Originally posted by Arhael
Indeed text does not illustrate Sidious struggling, after all it's a narration from Maul.that.

It actually does right at the beginning. I see no reason to believe that it suddenly became easy for him after that. If it did the fight wouldn't be carrying on the way it did.

And your right, it's from Maul's perspective not Sidious's. Maul saw him struggle once, then he quickly smiles. He won't want to show his opponents he's struggling.

Oh and the "Snarling" before he Force blasts Maul doesn't suggest ease either.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Yeah the fact that BOTH Sidious and Kenobi chose to use 2 Sabers to fight off Maul & Opress together shows it's not for entertainment but actually the most efficient way to fight 2 combatants.

There have been tons of other examples of a person fighting 2 or more combatants without using 2 sabers, including Sidious himself. I sincerely doubt that he brought the second one because he needed it. He did not require it to obliterate a 4-man team.

Originally posted by Nephthys
There have been tons of other examples of a person fighting 2 or more combatants without using 2 sabers, including Sidious himself.

I didn't say it's not possible with 1 Saber. But the Clone Wars series is clearly suggesting that's the best way to do it.

Of there's also Dooku's method of Using 1 Saber and combining force attacks as much as possible. But that wouldn't even have been an option for say Obi-Wan, since he's weaker in Force TK than both Maul and Opress.

Originally posted by Nephthys
I sincerely doubt that he brought the second one because he needed it.

What other possible reason would there be to bring it?

I sincerely doubt that Both Sidious and Kenobi Chose to use a second saber when fighting Maul and Opress together just for the sake of it.

Originally posted by Nephthys
He did not require it to obliterate a 4-man team.

Because it wasn't even an issue. 3 of those team members were complete non-factors to him.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
What other possible reason would there be to bring it?

If 2 sabers are more effective at fighting 2 opponents, just to make it easier? Just because it makes it more fun? It's not as if he needs to engage them in saber combat, he can overpower them individually with the Force at the very least, likely both at once (he did Force push both at once at the start). If Dooku can handle 2 duelists at once with one saber, its ludicrous to think that Sidious can't.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Because it wasn't even an issue. 3 of those team members were complete non-factors to him.

Neither Maul or Savage are too much more powerful or skilled than those Jedi Masters imo.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Hey S66 firstly I would appreciate if we did this without bringing up history and resorting to personal attacks otherwise there's no point in getting into this.

That's all up to you. I've always been civil with you until you start to act aggressive and rude.

However, I'm not interested in enagaging in a long debate over this, so this might be my last reply on the subject.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Secondly let me just clarify my position on this. Which is that Sidious is besting the 2 of them together, but probably just barely, up until the point where he seperates Maul. Then IT IS a Stomp One on One.

These 2 are powerful, and together are a formidable threat even to Sidious. And so it is a great feat for Sidious. But alone they are outclassed against the most Powerful Sith of the PT and OT are.

It is a great feat for Sidious, but he has better feats IMO. You seem to imply that the brothers were able to push Sidious to his limit, and the only way he was able to defeat them was by separating them. I disagree. I think it's pretty obvious that the two of them together had no chance in hell to overcome Sidious. If this single fight was the only source we are able to argue our stances from, then none of us would be able to prove the other wrong. It's the same way with Sidious' attack on Luke in ROTJ: if we were to judge Sidious' lightning from that single showing, then we would have no way of knowing whether or not Sidious was going all out on Luke, aside from his constant pauses and visual pleasure. But when we look back at his other showings with lightning, we can conclude that Sidious was not putting much effort when attacking Luke, but was instead slowly torturing him to death. Likewise - when we see how Sidious' force enhanced speed was such that he quickly dispatched two saber masters before Windu or Fisto were able to press their attack, and then proceeded to attack them [Windu and Fisto], cutting Fisto down after a few blows, and forcing Mace on the defensive - it's very reasonable for me to conclude that Sidious was not as relentless with the brothers as was was with Mace & company. I don't expect you and Arhael to come to the same conclusion, but it's wrong for you guys to dismiss my stance when you guys have absolutely no proof at all that Sidious was struggling against these two (aside from his strain during a saber lock), and when so much contradicts your stance. And while Maul and Savage may be a superior team to Fisto, Tiin and Kolar, I'm not seeing anything to suggest that they are so far ahead of the jedi team to where they can push Sidious to his limit, whereas the jedi team was a complete nonfactor despite having Windu alongside them.

Also the way Sidious stomped them individually as bad as he did, I'm not seeing how their combined might is enough to push Sidious to his limit.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
I'd compare it to how Count Dooku was dealing with Opress and Ventress. Which some people do feel was a stomp which just shows everyone is going to see this differently too.

I wouldn't. Dooku was fighting for his life, Sidious wasn't.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Let's see:

[b] "He raised his arms and both Maul and Savage flew through the air, smashing into the elegantly patterned walls of the royal chamber and crashing to the floor. Maul sprang to his feet and ignited his lightsaber. Savage did the same. The two Zabraks stared grimly at the hooded figure.

Sidious retrieved a pair of elegant-looking lightsabers from within the depths of his robes and ignited them."

I don't see where he waited for them. Maul is said to immediately jump back into the fight lightsaber ignited. Then Sidious brings out his 2 Sabers.[/B]

He allows them to get back on their feet and ignite their sabers before he even ignites his. And I'm not seeing how that's not enough time for Sidious to launch another attack considering he blitzed battle-ready masters before they could react. And I'm also not seeing how it's not enough time for Sidious to spam a lightning attack, considering Dooku was fast enough to spam FL at AOTC Anakin despite the fact that Anakin was already on his feet.

It's also the same way Maul immediately jumps back up after Sidious force pushed him the second time. In the same amount of time it took for Sidious to dodge a surprise attack from Savage and then shove a lightsaber through him.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
[b] "Savage knew the dangers of facing the Sith Lord alone, and pressed the attack before Sidious could draw his hand back from Force-shoving Maul into the wall. Teeth bared, Savage windmilled his double saber, hoping to disarm Sidious or force him to the ground. If he did, that would allow the yellow-and-black Zabrak to follow his initial attack with a lightning-quick thrust that would penetrate Sidious's defenses and wound or even kill him.

Maul tried to shake off his attack, rocketing up from the floor. Sidious neatly side-stepped Savage's assault, drawing back as the massive Zabrak raised his double-bladed saber high to try to pummel im with it.

Savage didn't think Sidious was fast enough to take advantage of the brief opening in his defenses but he was wrong."

First of all it makes it clear that Savage KNEW it was a risky move to attack Sidious alone.[/B]

No, he makes it clear that he alone is no match for Sidious in a FAIR saber duel, which is why he attacked Sidious before Sidious could draw his hand back from pushing Maul. He didn't think Sidious was that fast.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
But he tried it anyway because he though he could get him by surprise. But he didn't Instead it was Sidious who surprised him.

Sidious didn't surprise him. He just underestimated Sidious speed, possibly because Sidious wasn't showing the extent of his speed throughout the duel?

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Aside from the the fact that's obvious PIS(Plot Induced Stupidity) for Opress to have a proper death scene, do you have any idea how many In-Universe reasons there could be for that? Just a few:

1. Curiosity - Sidious wonders "Does Maul actually love this guy.."
2. Pride- Sidious wants to thrash Maul in fair combat one on one, and doesn't want to slice him from the side while he's morning over his brother.
3. GOD FORBID - Sidious uses the pause in the fight to take a rest and revitalize himself from the continuous fighting. GOD FORBID.

....Nice

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
What are you talking about? That's what your doing. Making your speculation and making it fact.

No, what I mean is that you think that just because a certain scenario plays out a certain way that that's how it will always happen (or how it has to happen).

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
LOL It's right here!!!

"It was the smallest stumble, easily corrected, but Sidious saw it- and pounced before Maul could draw himself back. Snarling, he reached out with the Force and slammed Maul against the wall, leaving him lying stunned in a heap."

I can't believe your just ignoring it like it's not there.

Force pushing Maul during a slight stumble in no way suggests that that was Sidious' only way of defeating them.

SIDIOUS_66
....Nice

Not the word I'd use, but [apparently] you're nicer than I am.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Not the word I'd use, but [apparently] you're nicer than I am.

Not exactly the word I meant, but I'm trying to contain myself. lol

Containment is for the weak. Allow your contempt to shrug off the coil of etiquette and the manacles of censorship. Unleash your wrath with the unstoppable gale of a hurricane. Do what must be done.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Containment is for the weak. Allow your contempt to shrug off the coil of etiquette and the manacles of censorship. Unleash your wrath with the unstoppable gale of a hurricane. Do what must be done.

Get out of my head!!

Originally posted by Nephthys
If 2 sabers are more effective at fighting 2 opponents, just to make it easier? Just because it makes it more fun? It's not as if he needs to engage them in saber combat, he can overpower them individually with the Force at the very least, likely both at once (he did Force push both at once at the start). If Dooku can handle 2 duelists at once with one saber, its ludicrous to think that Sidious can't.

I'm not saying Sidious can't. Yes he could do it Dooku style where he parries one of them with a Saber and relies heavily on force attacks to keep the other one at bay.

Just that in terms of tackling them in Sabers it's obviously more efficient doing it with 2. That's whay he and Kenobi specifically chose to use 2 when engaging them both.

"Surrender," Maul said quietly."We are two, and you are no match for us both."

Obi-Wan ignited both Adi's lightsaber and his own.

"You are mistaken," he said- and then he hurled himself at the two Sith both sabers flashing in his hands.

The implication is pretty damn clear. Only with 2 Sabers could he engage them both.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Neither Maul or Savage are too much more powerful or skilled than those Jedi Masters imo.

I'm afraid Shadow Conspiracy proves your theory wrong.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
I'm not saying Sidious can't. Yes he could do it Dooku style where he parries one of them with a Saber and relies heavily on force attacks to keep the other one at bay.

Just that in terms of tackling them in Sabers it's obviously more efficient doing it with 2. That's whay he and Kenobi specifically chose to use 2 when engaging them both.

"Surrender," Maul said quietly."We are two, and you are no match for us both."

Obi-Wan ignited both Adi's lightsaber and his own.

"You are mistaken," he said- and then he hurled himself at the two Sith both sabers flashing in his hands.

The implication is pretty damn clear. Only with 2 Sabers could he engage them both.

Firstly, I don't agree that implies any such thing. Secondly, my point was that Sidious hardly 'needed' 2 sabers to be able to beat those two. Which you've agreed with. If Dooku can engage Obi-Wan and Anakin at the same time (who are about equal or superior to the brothers) with only one saber, Sidious can do the same.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
I'm afraid Shadow Conspiracy proves your theory wrong.

Oh really? They must do some good stuff, because everything I've seen of them says that they are around Jedi Council level, not above it.

Originally posted by Nephthys
If 2 sabers are more effective at fighting 2 opponents, just to make it easier? Just because it makes it more fun? It's not as if he needs to engage them in saber combat, he can overpower them individually with the Force at the very least, likely both at once (he did Force push both at once at the start). If Dooku can handle 2 duelists at once with one saber, its ludicrous to think that Sidious can't.

In past debates, DP has explained to me that he doesn't necessarily think that Sidious is Dooku's equal with a lightsaber.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Firstly, I don't agree that implies any such thing. Secondly, my point was that Sidious hardly 'needed' 2 sabers to be able to beat those two. Which you've agreed with. If Dooku can engage Obi-Wan and Anakin at the same time (who are about equal or superior to the brothers) with only one saber, Sidious can do the same.

Yeah this I agree with. Sidious having far superior force powers could fight them the way Dooku fought Anakin/Obi-Wan or Opress/Ventress.

Of course that's Dooku's style. Sidious will do things his own way. Like using Jar Kai and putting in a Force attack when the opportunity presents itself.

But I don't know how anyone can disagree Obi-Wan drawing 2 lightsabers saying "You are mistaken" doesn't at all imply 2 Sabers greatly aided him tackling 2 opponents.

You honestly think he could have engaged the duo simultaneously and chopped Opress arm with just the one Saber?

Originally posted by Nephthys
Oh really? They must do some good stuff, because everything I've seen of them says that they are around Jedi Council level, not above it.

Well I don't know what you think you've seen Neph, but Opress alone has battered 2 Council members. Adi Gallia and Plo Koon (in Sith Hunters).

Not to mention Ventress who is clearly above your average Council member.

And then there's Maul who even as of TPM was taking down Council level members (Qui-Gon and Anoon Bondara). And now puts Opress in his place quite comfortably.

In terms of doing good stuff their performance against Sidious outstrips those 3 Jedi who accompanied Mace by miles.

Originally posted by Rookwood
In past debates, DP has explained to me that he doesn't necessarily think that Sidious is Dooku's equal with a lightsaber.

Shut up Rockwood. What's that got to do with anything?

And for the record I said he's not necessarily his superior in a pure fencing match.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER

Shut up Rockwood. What's that got to do with anything?

And for the record I said he's not necessarily his superior in a pure fencing match.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
That's all up to you. I've always been civil with you until you start to act aggressive and rude.

However, I'm not interested in enagaging in a long debate over this, so this might be my last reply on the subject.

Well nor am I tbh. I just wanted to post some passages from this fight for once as I feel a very one sided version of events was being portrayed previously.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
It is a great feat for Sidious, but he has better feats IMO. You seem to imply that the brothers were able to push Sidious to his limit, and the only way he was able to defeat them was by separating them. I disagree. I think it's pretty obvious that the two of them together had no chance in hell to overcome Sidious. If this single fight was the only source we are able to argue our stances from, then none of us would be able to prove the other wrong. It's the same way with Sidious' attack on Luke in ROTJ: if we were to judge Sidious' lightning from that single showing, then we would have no way of knowing whether or not Sidious was going all out on Luke, aside from his constant pauses and visual pleasure. But when we look back at his other showings with lightning, we can conclude that Sidious was not putting much effort when attacking Luke, but was instead slowly torturing him to death. Likewise - when we see how Sidious' force enhanced speed was such that he quickly dispatched two saber masters before Windu or Fisto were able to press their attack, and then proceeded to attack them [Windu and Fisto], cutting Fisto down after a few blows, and forcing Mace on the defensive - it's very reasonable for me to conclude that Sidious was not as relentless with the brothers as was was with Mace & company. I don't expect you and Arhael to come to the same conclusion, but it's wrong for you guys to dismiss my stance when you guys have absolutely no proof at all that Sidious was struggling against these two (aside from his strain during a saber lock), and when so much contradicts your stance. And while Maul and Savage may be a superior team to Fisto, Tiin and Kolar, I'm not seeing anything to suggest that they are so far ahead of the jedi team to where they can push Sidious to his limit, whereas the jedi team was a complete nonfactor despite having Windu alongside them.

Ok that's your opinion. I said it's going to be down to interpretation like the Dooku vs Ventress & Opress. One could say Dooku wasn't going all out there when you look at the way he handled Kenobi and Skywalker.

But I think Dooku did struggle to best Opress and Ventress. And that they were together almost a match for him. Just because he disposed of Obi-Wan with ease while fighting off Skywalker, doesn't mean he could do the same to Ventress while fighting off Opress because everyone has different strengths and weaknesses.

Also there's just such a big gap between Fisto and Mace, that there's plenty of room in between to fit the likes of Opress and Maul.

And if Windu alone can push Sidious to his limit and even defeat him, I see no reason why Maul and Opress together couldn't bring Sidious to near his limit before they get seperated.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Also the way Sidious stomped them individually as bad as he did, I'm not seeing how their combined might is enough to push Sidious to his limit.

Because together their strength adds up to cause a heck of a lot more strain on Siidous. The passage notes how Sidious is reaching out through the Force to match their strength.

Plus with them tackling 1 arm each his speed won't be anywhere near as effective as it is on 1 opponent.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
I wouldn't. Dooku was fighting for his life, Sidious wasn't..

How do you figure whose life is in more danger? Is it because Sidious went to engage the brothers, whilst Ventress was the one who initiated the duel with Dooku?

In terms of the combat in both cases there is an intense battle where the true Sith Lord is besting the 2 inferior Sith wannabes.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
He allows them to get back on their feet and ignite their sabers before he even ignites his. And I'm not seeing how that's not enough time for Sidious to launch another attack considering he blitzed battle-ready masters before they could react. And I'm also not seeing how it's not enough time for Sidious to spam a lightning attack, considering Dooku was fast enough to spam FL at AOTC Anakin despite the fact that Anakin was already on his feet.

It's also the same way Maul immediately jumps back up after Sidious force pushed him the second time. In the same amount of time it took for Sidious to dodge a surprise attack from Savage and then shove a lightsaber through him.

No pause is mentioned the first time at all. Sidious is the one who comes in out of nowhere and starts aggressively attacking them.

It's not the same as the second time Maul gets back up, because the second time Maul is clearly dazed.

It seems like your looking for pauses, in attempt to try and prove Sidious was holding back where no such proof exists Imho.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
No, he makes it clear that he alone is no match for Sidious in a FAIR saber duel, which is why he attacked Sidious before Sidious could draw his hand back from pushing Maul. He didn't think Sidious was that fast.
Sidious didn't surprise him. He just underestimated Sidious speed, possibly because Sidious wasn't showing the extent of his speed throughout the duel?

Well it was the first time he was fighting him alone without Maul simultaneously going all out on Sidious as well.. So... The speculation can continue.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
No, what I mean is that you think that just because a certain scenario plays out a certain way that that's how it will always happen (or how it has to happen).

Well in that case I could say in a rematch Maul and Opress could win. See how that works?

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Force pushing Maul during a slight stumble in no way suggests that that was Sidious' only way of defeating them.

I never said that's the only possible way of defeating them. I already admitted he was besting both of them together.

But that line proves Sidious was trying to overpower them, and likely searching for the most efficient way to do so.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66

....Nice

Oh yes and this.

You'll find

Spoiler:
when you stop listening to Tempest so much

Not to mention it clearly is the result of PIS. They wern't just going to have Opress die like Fisto or Kolar without a proper death scene.

Like when Maul pauses in TPM when Obi-Wan is hanging. He could Force Push him, but doesn't. Does that mean Maul was holding back the rest of the fight?

Think about it.

Just to point out, Sidious was laughing throughout his duel with Yoda and allowed the latter to get to his feet at least once, twice iirc. Was Sidious holding back against Yoda as well?