All spoilers have been edited or removed.
It doesn't matter what is listed on IMDB or Wikipedia or any other site.
If we want to know who is who or potential spoilers, then we will look for ourselves! We don't need anyone spoiling the movie for us!
Also, thank you very much for spoiling it for me as I have yet to see the new ST movie.
SPOILERS ARE TO BE USED FROM HERE ON!! Anyone who doesn't will not like me when I'm angry.
Originally posted by DARTH POWERSpoiler:was awesome
Spock
This guy is right.
Spoiler:
Great movie. I'll talk about the bad stuff, first, so I can get to the good stuff.Bad stuff:
1. Camera zoomed way the **** too close to everyone's face most of the time. Got annoying. I asked my wife why directors did this and she said, "to make it seem more real...or gritty..." Sounds plausible but it makes it seem dumb, clownish, or silly.
2. Like most of the newer Trek stuff, the damn windows are transparent which means they'd all die of radiation if they got to close to a radiating body. Seems minor but Trek stuff is supposed to think of everything. So, to make this work, I just pretend it is future tech that filters out all radiation except a comfortable and acceptable level of visible light. Also, the sound in space. Stupid. lol And the dissipating plasma trails. While cool, that's....not how those ships are supposed to operate.
3. Khan was TOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO ****in' skinny! The original Khan was believably strong because he was muscled up. Not this guy. Lame. Seems stupid that you'd have this skinny guy play a superhuman. The Augments are supposed to be 5 times as strong and twice as intelligent. Well, that was believable but he just didn't have the build that Ricardo Montalban (the original actor who played Khan) had. Also, many of us already guessed that the big bad in the previews was Khan. Was it too easy to see? While I'm whining, Khan's actor, Benedict Cumberbatch, was also way to wooden. Can't put my finger on it but his acting was just off.
4. There were several stupid stupid errors in the film that make the plot difficult to accept. However, it was not nearly as bad as the first one. Like all films, I'd need to see it a second time to give a complete run down of all the really horrible plot errors. One that comes to mind is the fact that Qo'noS (pronounced "Chronos"😉 was, what...just a few lightyears or something away from the neutral zone or whatever? In the film, the Enterprise sits right on the edge of the border while they send in their little flying saucer. So let's get this straight: the border between federation space and the Klingon homeworld is separated by just a few hundred thousand Km (what I thought it said in the film) or a couple of lightyears? Really? Come on. The apologists will say, "The Klingons' homeworld is so heavily guarded and the Klingon's themselves so very arrogant that a setup like that is not insecure. I call bullshit. The Klingons are not just brutes: they are also battle tacticians. Besides, you should not have to write out plot to explain what is seemingly stupid: it was just poor writing.
5. Just like the first, Gabriel's portrayal of Spock was waaaaaay too charged with emotion. No one can play a Vulcan better than Leonard Nemoy....and Tuvok's actor, Tim Russ, did a great job (but still too much emotion at times). However, this plays to its advantage, later...in a positive point.
6. Everybody seems to care a whole bunch about saving Kirk but nobody really gave a shit about all the other enterprise personnel that died while being attacked by the Dreadnaught Class starship. For real: all we got was a single line by Kirk, a year later, after the repairs of he Enterprise. Something about the loss of the lives on that ship, bla bla. That was it. But when Kirk was going to die or was offering his life, oh man, everyone just loved the shit out of Kirk. What about the others that lost their lives? (Waaah, bla bla, waah, is what I will hear about this. Something about them not offering their lives while Kirk offered his). Well, any loss of life should have instantly sobered Kirk's arrogant ass up and had him instantly surrender. But then we wouldn't have had an end-movie plot.
7. The whole showdown with Grand Admiral Robocop. That didn't have to happen. Kirk didn't need to confront him. Kirk can talk himself out of any situation. He could have easily said, "I was persuaded by my staff that I needed to bring back "John Harrison (Khan)" instead of being an arrogant confrontational prick by using his real name, Khan. That could have gone over really really well with the egotistical Admiral Robocop. He could have laid it on heavy with a, "Admiral, forgive my soft ways: after my last foray and just getting back my command, I figured I'd actually adhere to Starfleet regulations for once. He's all yours to do whatever with: at least I did the right thing, this time." Then he should have turned over Khan after talking to Khan about the situation. He could have feigned being under attack by Khan while Khan escaped. Bam, Scotty would have still done his thing (part of the plot that Kirk did not know about at the time), and Kirk and his crew would have had a perfectly intact ship with a perfectly disabled Dreadnaught class (called the Vengeance or some shit) ship. So what was to stop Kirk from then using his transporters to beam their crew into holding cells while he sorted out everything on earth (which, apparently, Qo'noS was only a few light years away..because they were shot out of warp only like 270,000 Km away form earth).
I know people will complain that I am using hindsight. But Kirk could have avoided the loss of any of his crew's life had he followed my way, avoided all the conflict, and actually been using his typical "Kirk social skills". The entire scene where he is talking to the Admiral irked me and was uncharacteristic of Kirk. It seemed forced to make a confrontation with the "big bad" just to have a spectacular ending. They could have made the ending still happen against Khan but with more focus on a Kirk vs. Khan.
8. Spock (from the main universe) telling Spock that he made a vow that he would not break and then seemingly breaks it...was just shit.
9. The whole "almost buttsex" scene between Spock and Kirk towards the end of the film was horrible. It wasn't until Kirk died that the scene got good. lulz
And the biggest offender (so far...I am sure I missed one):
10. The entire relationship between Spock and Kirk was NEVER ESTABLISHED. I don't care what you people will say about the first film: that was not establishing the relationship. Spock fuucks over Kirk, majorly, in the beginning of the film. Kirk pretty much tosses his command away and the Prime Directive JUST to save Spock when it was clear that Spock was willing to die to preserve the Prime Directive. That was okay....that was Kirk-like. That's fine. The problem is the extremely swift and "undying love" Kirk still has for Spock even after Spock "threw [Kirk] under the bus." At least, in the 1982 Wrath of Khan film, there was a MASSIVE amount of development in the relationship between Spock and Kirk. However, this film, there is very little. It is not very long after the first film (in this mirror-verse). In Wrath of Khan, there is, what...2 decades of relationship development between those two? So when Spock dies in that film, it MEANT something to the viewer and to Kirk. In this film, their relationship is JUST beginning. They are not "old friends". So Spock's reaction is out of place and Kirk's unwavering friendship towards Spock is out of place. That should not come until at least a decade more.
Now on to the good stuff (I can get into more bad staff after I see it a second time).
1. The dialogue was, just like the previous, fun. I liked all the little nods and hidden gems that paid homage to the old series. I dedicate one entire point to this, later...because I found it funny.
2. Leonard Nemoy's appearance as Spock was paramount. It would not have been as good without his Cameo (seriously, I am that big of a fan).
3. The reversal of Kirk dying and Spock living was a very interesting twist in this "mirror-verse". It...just worked, to me.
4. The sound effects. While they were not deliciously original as Star Wars (A New Hope), they were still fun, zippy, popping, squishy, etc. The sound effects team did a great job.
5. The ships: this may seem stupid to some but I really enjoyed the ship designs. The enormity of the ships is really really driven home in the opening scene where the Enterprise pulls out of the ocean. "Monumental" and "Gargantuan" seem fitting. Great scene. Great ships. Great set design for ship interiors, too.
6. Klingon character design. We only see one but the new Klingon character design looks GREAT. Not sure if this is halfway between them fixing their "Augment" fiasco and getting their full ridges back, but they truly looked like fearsome warriors. The Jewelry in their ridges was apt, as well. Best Klingon design, yet, imo.
7. The flora on the planet in the opening scene. The Earth had Red Algae and red photosynthesizing bacteria in its nascent life so it was very fun to see what a planet, fully realized, as a red "chloroform". With a local star giving off more Ultraviolet light in the form of energy, one could easily see a planet developing "red chlorophyll containing flora". It is just nice attention to detail that I like to see. It makes things like "sound" in space almost acceptable.
8. Kirk's belly. Some of you will not care about this. But I do. Kirk, in The Original Series, had a little belly. Well, if you'll notice, in most scenes, they put some padding in Chris Pine's shirt to give him that belly! 😄 Take a look at how in-shape he is when he gets out of bed with those cat women: he clearly does not have a gut (and, lol, Abrams is a furry). However, in later scenes, he does. That's a nice little touch for the hardcore fans that should make at least 1 or two people giggle at each showing. 😄
Spoiler:9. Pacing. Very few films have such a decent story that I think about "when is this film done?" I never one thought that. The story kept going and flowing just right to keep jerks like me entertained. I did not realize this to after the film. Even in really good films, I find myself thinking, "is it getting to the end, yet?" This should be a major positive for the film and part of the X-Factor that I think will give this a good score from the fans (people do not realize that they like films so much because of x-factors like these).
10. Spock raging out. Vulcans are supposed to be 3 times stronger than humans. Compare that to the 5 times stronger that the Augments are. However, Vulcans are also supposed to have faster reflexes and definitively superior intellects. So, to those that oppose Spock being able to go toe-to-toe with Khan, I point you t the superior Vulcan physiology that makes it seem believable that Khan and Spock could fight it out. Also, Spock being able to keep it up, on foot, while chasing down an Augment is also believable. Vulcans have a much better cardio-vascular system than humans due to their desert and thin atmosphere conditions on their home planet. Add in that Spock was raging out and his human side should have augmented him, further, to keep on par with an Augment. When Spock said, "KHHHHHHAAAAAAAN!", everyone clapped. It was not only awesome, he seemed to legit rage like the savage ancient Vulcans (who were very war-like). The fight was decent, too. I wanted to see them fight faster than they did because they are supposed to be better than humans. A couple of exchanges, they did fight quickly. However, I cannot complain because Spock got legit raged out as he flipped Khan's ass over and started beating the shit out of Khan's face. Satisfying. 🙂 Best part of the film, hands down.
I can add in more negative points...a lot more...but I'll save that for later.
8 out of 10. Almost a 9 (I use a rating scale with lots of areas). I have yet to see it in 3D. Could bump it up to a 9 if they blow me away with their 3D.
Originally posted by dadudemonSpoiler:
3. Khan was TOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO ****in' skinny! The original Khan was believably strong because he was muscled up. Not this guy. Lame. Seems stupid that you'd have this skinny guy play a superhuman. The Augments are supposed to be 5 times as strong and twice as intelligent. Well, that was believable but he just didn't have the build that Ricardo Montalban (the original actor who played Khan) had. Also, many of us already guessed that the big bad in the previews was Khan. Was it too easy to see? While I'm whining, Khan's actor, Benedict Cumberbatch, was also way to wooden. Can't put my finger on it but his acting was just off.
Yeah he didn't have that charm
Spoiler:He seemed more like a Vulcan.
that the original Khan did.
Spoiler:
So we never could have guessed who he was based solely on his portrayal and the personality they showed.
Originally posted by dadudemonSpoiler:5. Just like the first, Gabriel's portrayal of Spock was waaaaaay too charged with emotion. No one can play a Vulcan better than Leonard Nemoy....and Tuvok's actor, Tim Russ, did a great job (but still too much emotion at times). However, this plays to its advantage, later...in a positive point.
Seems to me that is a result of the massive amount of history change from the first. His home planet being destroyed and his Mother dying.
Spoiler:
It would be silly if that didn't permanently effect a half human Vulcan like him.
Originally posted by dadudemonSpoiler:10. Spock raging out. Vulcans are supposed to be 3 times stronger than humans. Compare that to the 5 times stronger that the Augments are. However, Vulcans are also supposed to have faster reflexes and definitively superior intellects. So, to those that oppose Spock being able to go toe-to-toe with Khan, I point you t the superior Vulcan physiology that makes it seem believable that Khan and Spock could fight it out. Also, Spock being able to keep it up, on foot, while chasing down an Augment is also believable. Vulcans have a much better cardio-vascular system than humans due to their desert and thin atmosphere conditions on their home planet. Add in that Spock was raging out and his human side should have augmented him, further, to keep on par with an Augment. When Spock said, "KHHHHHHAAAAAAAN!", everyone clapped. It was not only awesome, he seemed to legit rage like the savage ancient Vulcans (who were very war-like). The fight was decent, too. I wanted to see them fight faster than they did because they are supposed to be better than humans. A couple of exchanges, they did fight quickly. However, I cannot complain because Spock got legit raged out as he flipped Khan's ass over and started beating the shit out of Khan's face. Satisfying. 🙂 Best part of the film, hands down.
Spoiler:
Vulcan's strength seems to have been portrayed inconsistently in the series. You'd forget a lot of the time how strong Spock is. But when he showed it he was also a beast.
Then in Voyager Tuvok was never really shown to be that tough. Strange considering he was Chief of Security. And in that Pon Farr episode, the Vulcan boy really didn't seem much stronger than Belanna(not sure how to spell her name. The Half Klingon Woman).
Spoiler:.
So it was a nice surprise to see Spock with his beastly strength again. And brillaint decision to have him going toe to toe with Khan instead of Kirk, which is what happened in the Original series
Question:
Spoiler:
Would Worf be able to go toe to toe with Spock?
Generally as I've understood it, Klingons have always been just a little tougher than humans. But then Worf was always portayed as The Toughest Klingon.
Originally posted by DARTH POWERSpoiler:
Vulcan's strength seems to have been portrayed inconsistently in the series. You'd forget a lot of the time how strong Spock is. But when he showed it he was also a beast.Then in Voyager Tuvok was never really shown to be that tough. Strange considering he was Chief of Security. And in that Pon Farr episode, the Vulcan boy really didn't seem much stronger than Belanna(not sure how to spell her name. The Half Klingon Woman).
Spoiler:.
So it was a nice surprise to see Spock with his beastly strength again. And brillaint decision to have him going toe to toe with Khan instead of Kirk, which is what happened in the Original seriesQuestion:
Spoiler:
Would Worf be able to go toe to toe with Spock?Generally as I've understood it, Klingons have always been just a little tougher than humans. But then Worf was always portayed as The Toughest Klingon.
Too tough to keep the spoilers away so I'll just put the whole thing in spoilers:
Spoiler:
Tuvok had a few tough scenes. I remember at one point, he picked up someone with one arm...in a rescue or some shit. But Tuvok's abilities were focused more mentally and physically in the form of being able to stay awake, be without food and water for days, etc. Never focused much on his faster reflexes and strength.Klingons are supposed to be twice as strong as humans...by nerdy estimates. Worf is an exception as he is among if not the fiercest Klingon warrior. Worf was able to pick someone up, in a choke, with one arm. That's clearly much stronger than a human.
Originally posted by dadudemonSpoiler:Klingons are supposed to be twice as strong as humans...by nerdy estimates. Worf is an exception as he is among if not the fiercest Klingon warrior. Worf was able to pick someone up, in a choke, with one arm. That's clearly much stronger than a human.
Spoiler:
I thought so. Which is why I always used to think Worf vs Spock would be a pretty close fight. But then after this I have to give it to Spock. He was just too awesome against "KHHHHAAAAAANNN!"
Originally posted by Esau Cairn
Dadudemon... your comment that Cumberbatch was too skinny to play a certain character compared to Richardo Montalban's original portrayal.You do know that Montalban wore a fake latex muscular chest in Wraith?
That's a false myth that should no longer be perpetuating itself in any type of Trekkie circles especially considering commentary from Nemoy and Meyer that put that rumor to bed.
You're either trolling or being something else that I cannot say (lol). I assume you're just trolling for the lulz.
Originally posted by Esau CairnCumberbatch's permfornace was far better than the original actors. This guy stole the movie and every scene he was in. Best Star Trek character. Reboot Star Trek is awesome while the originals were abysmal.
Dadudemon... your comment that Cumberbatch was too skinny to play a certain character compared to Richardo Montalban's original portrayal.You do know that Montalban wore a fake latex muscular chest in Wraith?