Originally posted by Philosophía
One thing that is still baffling is how people pick Surfer. If there's one character this forum loves to death unjustifiably, it's him.Even if you assume in the cluster**** that ensues that Surfer will somehow specifically target Superman [who at no point in this scenario will blitz-engage him, as will nobody else for it to be feasible], have time [and means] to detect his weakness, have time to recreate it and then use it [in the complete shitstorm surrounding him with everybody attacking everybody], and take him out of the game, so what? There's still half a dozen people on the field, some with abilities tailor made to dent his ass into oblivion [Thor, who will always have Surfer's number]. Some with almost exactly the same abilities [Captain Atom, Green Lantern, Firestorm] etc. Some with AOE attacks that are not physical in themselves (Martian Manhunter). And plenty of shit going all around him. And he's one of the guys specifically targeted, too (along with Thor) by all of the Marvel side. As would Superman be by the DC side.
I see why somebody would pick Superman [as...I'm one of them]. I see why some would pick Thor. I see why some would pick even Martian Manhunter.
But Surfer? He brings nothing special here.
I know the polls don't mean much, but really?
Surfer's got the all-around game, and his high-end feats can go toe to toe with anyone in this fight. It's not surprising to me. But I don't begrudge your vote of Superman. If it weren't for the battle stipulations favoring Thor heavily, I'd have Kal and Surfer neck and neck for the best odds.
As I've said often in the past: for me, a CISless/PISless Surfer is nigh unimaginable in what he could do offensively: energy/matter manip, sheer brute power, etc. Even defensively, he's got shields, phasing; his own 'natural' durability has enabled him to survive multiple blows from near-Galactus-level beings. The other contenders would do right to ask Norrin, wtf you need the board for, man? Lookitchu. Look at what you can do!! Then Surfer shows them what he can do with the board, eg, trap others, sneak attacks, and there are no more questions (plus, while separating Surfer from his board is an exploitable weakness, it's less of a weakness than, say, separating Thor from Mjolnir, or hitting Supes with one of his weaknesses).
However: because I think Thor is -- in terms of sheer brute force -- the most powerful of the group; and because Superman -- better than any other character -- rises to 'impossible' challenges...I see this as a Circumstance Determined Outcome, dependent on how this fight goes with the other contenders.
I want to give the edge to Surfer, but it would be a very slim edge indeed, one I could easily see Thor or Superman taking from him, given a single golden opportunity in the midst of combat.
Originally posted by carver9Don't expect an answer.
So you're basically saying Surfer power output cant hurt Superman? In order for Surfer to drop Supes, he has to exploit his weaknesses?
Too often do I see posters make the counter-argument that "weakness exploitation =/= Superman auto-losing" and then expect that to somehow suffice as an argument that "not auto-losing to weakness exploitation = Superman auto-winning."
Frankly, it's almost insulting.
Superman has highly exploitable weaknesses. Period. Three of these guys know this intimately and are not hindered by PIS or CIS. Even if posters are conveniently ignoring how common knowledge his weaknesses are, Thor doesn't even need to know this intimately for any of his magically charged attacks to exploit Superman's weakness. He's just who he is.
As for the insipidly uninformed arguments that Cosmic Awareness somehow is too slow or doesn't work in the heat of battle (read a phucking comic, ffs), in any extended fight where nobody should be doubting Surfer will be present, if somehow Superman is one of the last men standing -- Surfer's not so absent-minded to ignore what Firestorm, Green Lantern and Captain Atom were trying to do via simple observation. And again, this conveniently ignores what common knowledge would offer here in addition to simple observation and Cosmic Phucking Awareness.
Now, even if you were to just blatantly ignore all this or foolishly convince yourself that you've some sort of counter-argument to this question of weakness exploitation, that doesn't automatically elevate Superman's chances over the other premier high heralds in a free-for-all, much less one that involves several other potent enemies.
Originally posted by ODG
^ Elaborate.
Well, ignoring that i was partially just messing with you and the fact that your bashing is a little extreme, your point does have some validity. It's just that there's a flipside to it.
For a very long period, any time Superman would be put up against people like Surfer or GL or anyone with an exotic powerset, the default, trolling response would be "weakness exploitation ftw" like it was a magic "i win" button.
When it's not.
Can Surfer beat him without it? Sure. He has the power to eventually put down Superman without resorting to tricks.
People just need to stop being twats and taking one character's side so vehemently that they might as well be sucking their balls.
Originally posted by -Pr-
Well, ignoring that i was partially just messing with you and the fact that your bashing is a little extreme, your point does have some validity. It's just that there's a flipside to it.For a very long period, any time Superman would be put up against people like Surfer or GL or anyone with an exotic powerset, the default, trolling response would be "weakness exploitation ftw" like it was a magic "i win" button.
When it's not.
Can Surfer beat him without it? Sure. He has the power to eventually put down Superman without resorting to tricks.
People just need to stop being twats and taking one character's side so vehemently that they might as well be sucking their balls.
Originally posted by -Pr-
Stones and glass houses?.
^ I'm not backhandedly blatantly calling people twats and accusing people of sucking characters' balls.
And being upset over people in past threads where Superman shouldn't be seen as auto-losing in a 1-on-1 matchup against guys like Surfer has pretty much nothing to do with a battle royale where Superman has to deal with the likes of GL, Firestorm, Captain Atom, Thor, Surfer, Quasar, etc. and all that should entail.
So, yea.
Originally posted by ODG
^ I'm notbackhandedlyblatantly calling people twats and accusing people of sucking characters' balls.And being upset over people in past threads where Superman shouldn't be seen as auto-losing in a 1-on-1 matchup against guys like Surfer has pretty much nothing to do with a battle royale where Superman has to deal with the likes of GL, Firestorm, Captain Atom, Thor, Surfer, Quasar, etc. and all that should entail.
So, yea.
Who did I name? Well? And even if I had; why should I be nice to people who blatantly troll?
If you don't see a connection, then I really don't know what to say to you.
^ It doesn't matter who you're naming. The fact that you're even throwing around insults like that in a thread where my "bashing" is considered "extreme" while trying to insinuate I'm hypocritical is... hypocritical.
Even if you disagree with that, why should I be nice to arguments that I see as blatantly ignorant? At least I actually address the arguments being presented at hand and explain why I think they're blatantly ignorant.
If you think this brief tete-a-tete is going to end well, I'd implore you to consider otherwise.