Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
I don't get this "long enough" part. Revan reacted instantly to the threat. And he had to use unorthodox means to save himself. If their would have been ample time as you claim, Revan would have gotten the opportunity to land a Force push or something but he didn't. In fact, no one else did either. This is why so many individuals fell in to trap of Vitiate; his mental/telepathic powers were so quick and effective.You have excuses and nothing else. Looking for spots to give advantage to your favourite characters without proper grasp of canonical events.
Sorry folks, this isn't how things work. Unless Yoda is too close to Vitiate, he wouldn't get the time to land a blow to defend himself from telepathic domination.
Just a minor mental brush from Vitiate nearly broke Scourge who was also a powerful individual. And Vitiate was being soft with him.
When Revan felt the brush, he reacted on the spot with unorthodox means to save himself. He knew that he didn't had much time to think about his options. Revan was mentally prepared beforehand during this second encounter. The situation of Revan is entirely different then that of a first-timer in this encounter.
In fact, the whole duel didn't last long in terms of span of time, as per descriptions in the novel.
"The Emperor stood in the exact same position as before; it was as if he hadn't even moved. Revan began to sense the oppressive presence of the dark side weighing down on him. The Emperor was trying to crush his will: to dominate and enslave his mind as he had before. This time, however, Revan was ready."
^Like I said, Vitiate's mind control is not instantaneously. Revan was able to sense it and he was fast enough to respond to it, so why wouldn't one of the fastest force users in the history of SW be able to do the same? You're assuming that Yoda will ignore this "dark presence" entering his mind, which may be true, but I'm not sure how you are in any position to know this.
Also, the only unorthodoxed method used by Revan was the way he attacked Vitiate with the force.
Originally posted by NemeBro
Random question: Is TFU2 considered canon?
Yes.
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Awww look, the sorry assTOR era worshiperPT era/Sidious worshiper still upset because his favorite characters didn't live up to his expectations.Revan was able to resist Vitiate's mind control long enough to put him on his ass, so it's not something that Vitiate can do instantly.
Your dumbass forgot to mention that Revan did this by channeling the dark and light sides into a perfect equilibrium, which we haven't seen from any other character. Moving on.
Yoda was able to fight at equal speed to a sith lord who can blitz other incredibly fast force users before they could react
Give me proof that Vitiate can penetrate Yoda's mind before Yoda can slaughter him.
If Yoda does allow Vitiate to attack first, all Yoda has to do is sense Vitiate trying to enter his mind, break Vitiate's concentration with a force push, and then blitz him
Please give me a reasonable argument, and not another baseless fanboy assumption. [/B]Both the irony and hypocrisy of this statement ends an already pitiful argument on your part.
Originally posted by jadams3928
Your dumbass forgot to mention that Revan did this by channeling the dark and light sides into a perfect equilibrium, which we haven't seen from any other character. Moving on.
Show me where Revan needed to channel both sides of the force in order to sense Vitiate's mental intrusion and to be able to react to it.
Originally posted by jadams3928
Give me proof Yoda can slaughter Vitiate before Vitiate mind ****s him. See what I did thurr?
I did. He fought at equal speeds to a sith lord who can blitz jedi masters before they could react. Now give me a speed feat from Vitiate that suggests he can react faster than those jedi masters.
Also, the speed feats from those jedi masters have been posted. I'm pretty sure your dumbass as seen them already. Now how about you do your part and provide a decent argument backed up with feats.
Originally posted by jadams3928
Both the irony and hypocrisy of this statement ends an already pitiful argument on your part.
Damn, I'm better off debating this with LeGenD, lmao.
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Show me where Revan needed to channel both sides of the force in order to sense Vitiate's mental intrusion and to be able to react to it.
I did. He fought at equal speeds to a sith lord who can blitz jedi masters before they could react. Now give me a speed feat from Vitiate that suggests he can react faster than those jedi masters.
Also, the speed feats from those jedi masters have been posted. I'm pretty sure your dumbass as seen them already. Now how about you do your part and provide a decent argument backed up with feats.
Damn, I'm better off debating this with LeGenD, lmao. [/B]You're right, that way you would be getting your ass kicked by one person instead of two. LOL
facepalm
Did you just suggest S66 is worse than SWL? I'm trying to think of a more potentially offensive statement... and I'm drawing blank.
That's just cold, bro.
But he is right: there hasn't been any evidence to suggest Vitiate is fast enough to contend with Yoda, who is prodigiously fast even among Force adepts (Shadow Hunter).
Originally posted by The_Tempest
I would appreciate the exact entry from the Encyclopedia, if you have it. Wookieepedia is all well and good as a general reference guide, but it's not something to dictate these threads.
I posted the wiki because my encyclopedia is at home, i'll post the exact quote when I get back but as I recall, it's 100% accurate on wiki. The entire dark council member died in a flash of instantaneous light.
Originally posted by jadams3928
I posted the wiki because my encyclopedia is at home, i'll post the exact quote when I get back but as I recall, it's 100% accurate on wiki.
Thanks, it's appreciated. The Encyclopedia is a great read, but it's just too expensive for me to purchase, particularly with my limited interest in the era.
Originally posted by jadams3928
The entire dark council member died in a flash of instantaneous light.
But if that's all the Encyclopedia has to say, that's still not a decisive instance. It has been pretty exhaustively and successfully argued that Vitiate overwhelmingly relies on preparation and rituals for his most powerful attacks.
If the Dark Council died in this instance through Vitiate's powers, how are we to know such abilities are available to him at whim? Consider his struggles to bring down Revan, among others.
But if that's all the Encyclopedia has to say, that's still not a decisive instance. It has been pretty exhaustively and successfully argued that Vitiate overwhelmingly relies on preparation and rituals for his most powerful attacks.
If the Dark Council died in this instance through Vitiate's powers, how are we to know such abilities are available to him at whim? Consider his struggles to bring down Revan, among others. [/B]
jadams3928
No it doesn't. It was stated that the 8,000 sith lords were dominated mentally as soon as they stepped on Nathema.
Not exactly.
I'm familiar with three sources regarding the ritual conducted on Nathema: Darth Nyriss, The Old Republic Encyclopedia, and the in-game datacron entitled "The Ritual of Nathema." None of them claim that the Sith Lords were enthralled the moment their boots touched the world's soil:
Nyriss
“Once they arrived on Nathema, they quickly fell under Lord Vitiate’s control. He dominated their minds, crushed their resistance. He turned them into slaves to his will, forcing them to participate in the most complex ritual of Sith sorcery ever attempted. Calling on the dark side, Lord Vitiate devoured them. He fed on their power, absorbing it into himself, utterly obliterating all traces of his victims."
TOR Encyclopedia
Eight thousand Sith Lords gathered on Medriaas and agreed to partake in a ritual that would bind the Sith together as an ultimate dark side weapon.
"The Ritual of Nathema"
There they conducted a ritual that extended the Emperor’s life at the cost of the lives of more than eight thousand Sith Lords. The Ritual of Nathema is celebrated among Imperial scholars as a rare and amazing coming together of Sith for the good of the Empire.
All three sources share two traits: one, they are all in-universe texts and two, they conflict with one another. Nyriss claims the Sith Lords were compelled to participate whereas the other two suggest it was an act of voluntary cooperation.
The closest support for your claim is Nyriss's account, but "quickly" and "instantaneously" are not equitable.
jadams3928
The same was said when Revan and Malak first met him.
The Encyclopedia says the domination took "mere moments," yes, but Revan explains to Scourge and Surik that the entire affair was an elaborate trap by the Emperor:
Revan
“True, but we didn’t know that at the time,” Revan explained. “We were being led into a trap; the Emperor wanted us to come to him. When we got to his throne room, he was ready and waiting.” His voice dropped low. “We underestimated his power. When we confronted him, he didn’t even have to fight us. Instead, he broke our wills. He dominated our minds, turning us into puppets to do his bidding. He sent us back to the Republic as the vanguard of his invasion, with instructions to report back when all resistance was crushed."
Revan
He’d feared they’d have to fight through dozens of the Guard before reaching the throne room, giving the Emperor ample time to prepare his counterattack. Now, however, they had a chance to take their adversary by surprise.They were led down a twisting maze of corridors, a long and winding journey that Revan remembered from his last visit to the citadel. He and Malak had followed the same route, led by a Guard they had bribed for access, completely unaware that they were being led into a trap.
It was possible the same thing was being done to them this time, as well, but Revan didn’t think that was the case. The guard who had betrayed him and Malak had met with them numerous times before leading them into the citadel, no doubt reporting back to the Emperor after each visit. This time, however, events had moved too quickly and too spontaneously for the Emperor’s patient hand to be behind them.
jadams3928
Sometimes he needs preparation, sometimes he doesn't. And I'm not saying the first Dark Council purge was a mental attack,
I know you're not.
jadams3928
I'm saying he has instantaneous attacks at his disposal. Again, the Dark Council was purged in a flash of light.
But we don't know if the attack was the product of a Sith weapon, ritual, or other phenomenon that required channeled energies. When relegated to his standard abilities, Vitiate never displays this sort of potency or anything close to it.
jadams3928
Revan prepared for Vitiate's attack with whatever technique he invented. You also don't see Vitiate getting serious about the fight until Revan knocks him down. Then he unleashes a force storm that Revan can't stop.
Per the text, Vitiate channels his power to unleash a telekinetic blast as Revan charges him. When Scourge and Surik enter the fray, Vitiate visibly hesitates and only attacks when the former betrays and murders the latter. When we combine the undeniably persistent trend of Vitiate relying on channeling, foresight, nexuses, preparation, rituals, and traps with the fact that we never see this sort of power used in combat at whim, I don't see why we should assume he'd be capable of unleashing it here.
The Encyclopedia says the domination took "mere moments," yes, but Revan explains to Scourge and Surik that the entire affair was an elaborate trap by the Emperor:
But we don't know if the attack was the product of a Sith weapon, ritual, or other phenomenon that required channeled energies. When relegated to his standard abilities, Vitiate never displays this sort of potency or anything close to it.
Per the text, Vitiate channels his power to unleash a telekinetic blast as Revan charges him. When Scourge and Surik enter the fray, Vitiate visibly hesitates and only attacks when the former betrays and murders the latter. When we combine the undeniably persistent trend of Vitiate relying on channeling, foresight, nexuses, preparation, rituals, and traps with the fact that we never see this sort of power used in combat at whim, I don't see why we should assume he'd be capable of unleashing it here.
Vitiate didn't rely on anything when he unleashed his force storm. Vitiate didn't rely on anything when Tol Braga and his Jedi came to his space station. Nor when he unleashed his force storm on them.
Originally posted by jadams3928
It also said it took a fraction of the emperor's powers to do it.
I'm aware. But, courtesy of Revan, we understand that that's not true: a substantial degree of his strength and concentration, per the text, was marshaled to to the effort of subjugating Revan in their second encounter.
Originally posted by jadams3928
Nothing suggests he was conducting a ritual or anything of the sort, only that he was ready and waiting for them.
Prior knowledge of an impending attack affords one an undeniable advantage when that attack occurs. The Emperor could very well have gathered his energies and simply waited for Yarri to bring Malak and Revan through the front door, which is a reasonable assumption given what we know of him.
Originally posted by jadams3928
The Second Dark Council Purge. All members enter his throne room, none leave alive.
And as he was the one who summoned them there, that is another tremendous advantage: he knew that they'd be coming and when they'd be coming. Not to mention that details of the encounter elude us, unless the Encyclopedia mentioned something I forgot.
Originally posted by jadams3928
Vitiate didn't rely on anything when he unleashed his force storm.
The text notes he stopped to gather his power for the storm.
Originally posted by jadams3928
Vitiate didn't rely on anything when Tol Braga and his Jedi came to his space station. Nor when he unleashed his force storm on them.
How do you know? When I say "ritual," I am not necessarily meaning an elaborate affair with candles and incantations. I simply mean that he might have taken the time, as he observed the confrontation between Braga's men and Scourge, to gather his energies in preparation of a fight.
His consistent use of such preparation makes such an assumption absolutely reasonable.
And as he was the one who summoned them there, that is another tremendous advantage: he knew that they'd be coming and when they'd be coming. Not to mention that details of the encounter elude us, unless the Encyclopedia mentioned something I forgot.
The text notes he stopped to gather his power for the storm.You'll have to refresh my memory.
I'm aware. But, courtesy of Revan, we understand that that's not true: a substantial degree of his strength and concentration, per the text, was marshaled to to the effort of subjugating Revan in their second encounter.
How do you know? When I say "ritual," I am not necessarily meaning an elaborate affair with candles and incantations. I simply mean that he might have taken the time, as he observed the confrontation between Braga's men and Scourge, to gather his energies in preparation of a fight.
His consistent use of such preparation makes such an assumption absolutely reasonable. [/B]It's not reasonable to assume that Yoda would overwhelm Vitiate with his speed, especially when Revan couldn't. You forget, Vitiate WAS prepared for Revan the 2nd time around. When Revan walked in, Vitiate said "I did not think you would return".
jadams3928
He summoned them but it's unlikely he knew when they'd be coming, just that they'd be coming.
That, actually, seems rather unlikely given how dangerously paranoid and extraordinarily well-informed he is.
jadams3928
You'll have to refresh my memory.
Revan
It struck the Emperor in the chest, sending him sliding several meters back on the floor. For the first time the Sith’s emotionless veneer cracked as he let out a primal hiss of hate. The sound sent shivers down Revan’s spine.The Emperor rose to his feet, his robes smoking and singed where the lighting had struck him. His black eyes flashed red, and he raised both hands high above his head.
Revan knew he was gathering his power to unleash a swirling storm of pure dark side energy, just as Nyriss had done. The Jedi quickly calculated his options. Realizing he couldn’t close the gap between them quickly enough to stop the assault, he gathered his own energy and spread his hands before him, ready to catch and absorb the Emperor’s attack.
jadams3928
This is also not something I remember. The only thing I remember about their fight was that when Vitiate got knocked on his ass, he had a snarl on his face and went apeshit, then unleashed a force storm.
Revan
The Emperor stood in the exact same position as before; it was as if he hadn’t even moved. Revan began to sense the oppressive presence of the dark side weighing down on him. The Emperor was trying to crush his will: to dominate and enslave his mind as he had before. This time, however, Revan was ready.Instead of charging forward, he opened himself up to the Force, letting both the light and the dark side flow through him like twin rushing rivers. But instead of focusing or channeling the Force, he released it in its purest form.
There was brilliant flash as the air between the two combatants lit up. The energy unleashed was powerful enough to send Revan staggering. The Emperor, unprepared and with much of his strength diverted to his effort to dominate Revan’s mind, was sent flying backward.
jadams3928
He wasn't taking Revan seriously until that point.
I disagree. He took Revan seriously enough to "focus and channel his power" and unleash a telekinetic blast at the "last possible instant" to curtail Revan's charge before trying to dominate his mind.
Now obviously he wasn't pissed until Revan put him on his ass, but that doesn't mean he wasn't taking him seriously.
jadams3928
Even if that IS the case, which is debatable, he took every one of those masters down.
No one suggested otherwise. The problem is that we have yet to ascertain where those Masters ranked. Braga, the leader and one of the last to succumb, was renowned as a pacifist, not a warrior.
jadams3928
It's not reasonable to assume that Yoda would overwhelm Vitiate with his speed, especially when Revan couldn't.
I disagree. It would be unreasonable only if Revan were established to be comparable to Yoda with respect to speed or general martial prowess, a suggestion for which no proof has been offered.
jadams3928
You forget, Vitiate WAS prepared for Revan the 2nd time around. When Revan walked in, Vitiate said "I did not think you would return".
That Vitiate did not, in his own words, "expect" Revan to return to Dromund Kaas does not mean that he didn't sense Revan and his companions brawl with the Imperial Guard just outside his throne room. In fact, it stands to reason that he did.
Originally posted by The_Tempest
facepalmDid you just suggest S66 is worse than SWL? I'm trying to think of a more potentially offensive statement... and I'm drawing blank.
I made the suggestion about him. And it's the truth.
DS is a little shit-talking idiot.
Originally posted by jadams3928
It's in the book. Revan creates a technique for Vitiate's mental powers, and channels the equilibrium when he is in the throne room.
That was after he sensed Vitiate entering his mind.
The quote I provided indicates that Vitiate's mind control is not instantaneously, which is why Revan was fast enough to react to it. And it's Probably the reason why Vitiate didn't attempt it a second time during their combat, but instead uses lightning and TK.
If I'm forgetting something, feel free to correct me.
Originally posted by jadams3928
He fought a sith lord who blitzed the B team?
Yup, B team which inludes members who have better speed feats than Vitiate. Palpatine slaughtered the first two before Fisto (who was fast enough to overwhelm Grievous in sheer speed) or even Windu were able to do anything about it.
Originally posted by jadams3928
Wonderful argument. When 8,000 sith lords came to Nathema, they [b]immediately fell under the sway of Vitiate. When Revan and Malak met Vitiate for the first time, they immediately fell under his sway. This is becoming too easy.[/B]
Revan says that they underestimated Vitiate's abilities, which, like I said, Yoda might underestimate Vitiate too; he might ignore the "dark presence" entering his mind, but we both are not in any position to know that. I'm only arguing what Yoda is capable of.
And as for the 8,000 sith lords: are we to ignore an on-panel feat in favor of an off-panel feat that lacks any details? As stated before, Vitiate's mind control took enough time for Revan to react to. Wasn't there also another instance where Vitiate had to overpower his adversaries with FL before he mindraped them?
Not saying Vitiate's telepathic abilities require hours or anything, but it takes more than enough time for someone like Yoda to react to. Regardless, if Yoda can attack Vitiate before Vitiate can react, how is his mind control going to come into play?
I disagree. He took Revan seriously enough to "focus and channel his power" and unleash a telekinetic blast at the "last possible instant" to curtail Revan's charge before trying to dominate his mind.
Now obviously he wasn't pissed until Revan put him on his ass, but that doesn't mean he wasn't taking him seriously.
No one suggested otherwise. The problem is that we have yet to ascertain where those Masters ranked. Braga, the leader and one of the last to succumb, was renowned as a pacifist, not a warrior.
That Vitiate did not, in his own words, "expect" Revan to return to Dromund Kaas does not mean that he didn't sense Revan and his companions brawl with the Imperial Guard just outside his throne room. In fact, it stands to reason that he did. [/B]This is my point. The only chance Yoda MIGHT have is to catch the emperor unaware, and as we've seen, then chances of that happening are INCREDIBLY slim.
jadams3928
By your own wordes, if he waited until the last possible instance to curtail Revan's charge, then he did not take him seriously, or as seriously.
That interpretation is precluded by the fact that Vitiate gathered his energies at all. If he didn't take Revan seriously, such a precaution would have been unnecessary and he would have dismissed him less effortlessly. As it stands, the better, more logical interpretation is that he waited "until the last possible instant" to unleash his attack in order to spend more time increasing its potency before Revan reached him.
jadams3928
And the 8,000 sith lords? At this point, it's a numbers game.
Re-framing the issue as a matter of numbers is unreasonable and, ultimately, unwise if one is attempting to construct a favorable argument for Vitiate in any context.
The three relevant in-universe sources conflict. One submits the Sith Lords were coerced into participating, the other two suggest that it was a cooperative effort. But even if the former is correct, two mitigating facts remain: one, the event took place on Vitiate's home turf and at his request; two, we don't know of the Sith Lords expected any sort of attack of that nature. Nyriss notes that they probably didn't, given their overconfidence.
jadams3928
This is my point. The only chance Yoda MIGHT have is to catch the emperor unaware, and as we've seen, then chances of that happening are INCREDIBLY slim.
If Yoda were invading Vitiate's citadel on Dromund Kaas, I would probably agree. But unless denoted in the opening post, the assumption is usually that both sides engage one another on neutral territory and without prior preparation.
Yoda's combat feats exceed Revan's and Vitiate's by virtue of magnitude and variety.