DE Sidious and Lord Vitiate

Honestly, you both have a grasp of logic that is far away from idiocy. I'd get it if one or both of you were acting like... some other folks around here, but since you're not, there's no need to exchange insults or accuse the other of fanboyism.

This has been a pretty good discussion anyway, let's not taint it.

Re-framing the issue as a matter of numbers is unreasonable and, ultimately, unwise if one is attempting to construct a favorable argument for Vitiate in any context.

The three relevant in-universe sources conflict. One submits the Sith Lords were coerced into participating, the other two suggest that it was a cooperative effort. But even if the former is correct, two mitigating facts remain: one, the event took place on Vitiate's home turf and at his request; two, we don't know of the Sith Lords expected any sort of attack of that nature. Nyriss notes that they probably didn't, given their overconfidence.

If Yoda were invading Vitiate's citadel on Dromund Kaas, I would probably agree. But unless denoted in the opening post, the assumption is usually that both sides engage one another on neutral territory and without prior preparation.

Yoda's combat feats exceed Revan's and Vitiate's by virtue of magnitude and variety. [/B]

jadams3928
I'm not following. It's anything but an unfavorable argument, at least when numbers are concerned.

I'd rather not get into particulars there, since it will threaten to derail this discussion and tangents are so exhausting. Suffice it to say that playing the numbers game in another context might make Vitiate appear flaccid compared to other telepaths whose manipulations were much broader in scale and size.

But that's all that needs to be said, because that's a different conversation for another time.

jadams3928
You're still talking about 8,000 sith lords. That's more than small towns.

Refer above: numbers alone are no credit to Vitiate's feats.

jadams3928
Then assuming Yoda is took quick for the mind **** and can somehow withstand a force storm, he may have a chance.

That's the prevailing assumption. In the critical seconds it would take for Vitiate to dominate him, Yoda has displayed the reaction time, speed, and powers to retaliate and break the connection as Revan did.

jadams3928
When you say combat, you've got to be referring to lightsaber combat because Vitiate's force feats are vastly superior to Yoda's.

I'm referring to combat.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
I'd rather not get into particulars there, since it will threaten to derail this discussion and tangents are so exhausting. Suffice it to say that playing the numbers game in another context might make Vitiate appear flaccid compared to other telepaths whose manipulations were much broader in scale and size.

Refer above: numbers alone are no credit to Vitiate's feats.

That's the prevailing assumption. In the critical seconds it would take for Vitiate to dominate him, Yoda has displayed the reaction time, speed, and powers to retaliate and break the connection as Revan did.

jadams3928
The only one you could be referring to is Exar Kun. We have no idea how many beings in the senate chamber were force sensitive. They were also made to watch and not do anything for a few minutes.

Not quite, but as I said, that's another topic altogether.

jadams3928
Vitiate made 8,000 force sensitive sith participate in a ritual for 10 days. Hardly a comparison.

The three relevant sources conflict and only one suggests he forced them to do anything.

jadams3928
Mind domination to the highest extent.

Not quite, but as I said, that's another topic altogether.

jadams3928
Again, what did Revan do to break the connection? Create a technique where one needs to channel the light and dark sides in perfect equilibrium, where nobody besides Revan has shown to do this?

Nothing suggests that this particular maneuver was necessary to prevent Vitiate's domination of Revan's mind.

Nothing suggests that this particular maneuver was necessary to prevent Vitiate's domination of Revan's mind

Everything suggests this. I'll get the quotes from the book a little later. It's implied that Revan needed to create a technique to break the domination. In the entire mythos, he's the only one we've seen do that to Vitiate, unless we count the hero of tython to a weakened Emperor's Voice.

Not quite, but as I said, that's another topic altogether.

Originally posted by jadams3928
Everything suggests this. I'll get the quotes from the book a little later. It's implied that Revan needed to create a technique to break the domination. In the entire mythos, he's the only one we've seen do that to Vitiate, unless we count the hero of tython to a weakened Emperor's Voice.

I'd need to see the quotes first. Scourge and Surik weren't enthralled by Vitiate without channeling the light and dark sides into some sort of TK burst. Kira Carsen threw Vitiate from her mind by simply channeling the light side.

Originally posted by jadams3928
You can't say that a numbers game would lower the perception of Vitiate's power and then say it's another discussion. We don't need a discussion, just examples.

I said making it a numbers game would lower Vitiate's perception of power because there are other Force adepts who have enthralled far more than 8,000 people. Making it a matter of numbers wouldn't make him number one by any stretch, but that's a discussion that need not be had here.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
I'd need to see the quotes first. Scourge and Surik weren't enthralled by Vitiate without channeling the light and dark sides into some sort of TK burst. Kira Carsen threw Vitiate from her mind by simply channeling the light side.

I said making it a numbers game would lower Vitiate's perception of power because there are other Force adepts who have enthralled far more than 8,000 people. Making it a matter of numbers wouldn't make him number one by any stretch, but that's a discussion that need not be had here. [/B]

jadams3928
I don't recall this.

After the confrontation with Darth Angral, Vitiate assumes control over Carsen's body and attempts to kill the player. She is defeated, Vitiate moves to attack again, Carsen claims allegiance to the light side and says Vitiate and the dark side has no power over her, repulsing him.

jadams3928
She was a child of the Emperor so that's not quite the same thing. The mechanics of his essence in her body are totally different than total mind domination.

True. In fact, I'd imagine what Carsen achieved was a good deal more impressive, since it required rejecting Vitiate's very essence as opposed just his will.

jadams3928
Right, and I disagreed with this assessment because it's not 8,000, it's 8,000 sith lords. Unless you're saying ONLY numbers would lower the perception.

Bingo.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
"The Emperor stood in the exact same position as before; it was as if he hadn't even moved. Revan began to sense the oppressive presence of the dark side weighing down on him. The Emperor was trying to crush his will: to dominate and enslave his mind as he had before. This time, however, Revan was ready."

^Like I said, Vitiate's mind control is not instantaneously.

As he spoke, the dark circles of his eyes seemed to fill with a swirling red mist, and for a brief instant the Emperor gave Scourge a glimpse of his true self.

Scourge cried out in anguish as the Emperor's mind brushed against his, then he collapsed to the floor, shaking like a child. The touch lasted less than a second, but in that time he witnessed indescribable horrors that dwarfed anything the dark side could conjure even in his worst nightmares. And beneath the formless terrors lurked the unbearable Void, the pure emptiness of total annihilation.

It was over as quickly as it had begun, the awful vision retreating into his subconscious like a repressed memory as Scourge picked himself up off the floor. Neither Captain Yarri nor the robed Sith made any move to help him.

Good enough? Emperor didn't even tried to break Scourge. He just gave him a hint about what he can do to him, if he betrays him.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Revan was able to sense it and he was fast enough to respond to it, so why wouldn't one of the fastest force users in the history of SW be able to do the same? You're assuming that Yoda will ignore this "dark presence" entering his mind, which may be true, but I'm not sure how you are in any position to know this.

Yoda is a first-timer and he would be caught unaware.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Also, the only unorthodoxed method used by Revan was the way he attacked Vitiate with the force.

The assumption that one can land a Force push while Vitiate is trying to crush the mind is silly and unsupported. No one has ever succeeded in preventing Vitiate from crushing wills in this manner.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Show me where Revan needed to channel both sides of the force in order to sense Vitiate's mental intrusion and to be able to react to it.

Instead of charging forward, he opened himself up to the Force, letting both the light and the dark side flow through him like twin rushing rivers. But instead of focusing or channeling the Force, he released it in its purest form.

There was brilliant flash as the air between the two combatants lit up. The energy unleashed was powerful enough to send Revan staggering. The Emperor, unprepared and with much of his strength diverted to his effort to dominate Revan’s mind, was sent flying backward.

We get a hint here that Revan could channel or focus this power as well. However, he didn't because (logically) time was not on his side during this event.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
I did. He fought at equal speeds to a sith lord who can blitz jedi masters before they could react. Now give me a speed feat from Vitiate that suggests he can react faster than those jedi masters.

Also, you recall when Yoda confronted Sidious for the first time, what happened?

After exchanging statements, Sidious launched a burst of Force Lightning and Yoda watched it coming towards him; getting knocked out afterwards for a brief period.

Sidious is relatively much more aggressive combatant then Yoda is. Yoda, unfortunately, regardless of his power, is more in to defensive posture then aggressive posture.

Funny thing is that Yoda knew that Sidious was not to be taken lightly. And he still adopted defensive posture initially. But I am not surprised by this; Yoda adopted defensive posture against Dooku as well.

Up against Vitiate; this means death or broke. Heck, Revan understood this and was on the offensive since the beginning but couldn't get close to Vitiate; such was the power of latter.

Yoda is not without his flaws; be they mental or whatever.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Also, the speed feats from those jedi masters have been posted. I'm pretty sure your dumbass as seen them already. Now how about you do your part and provide a decent argument backed up with feats.

Sidious moved like a blur during his duel with Mace. In contrast, Padawan Obi-Wan also once moved like a blur. Therefore, should we assume that Padawan Obi-Wan would match Sidious in speed?

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Damn, I'm better off debating this with LeGenD, lmao.

"It is unavoidable. It is your destiny. You, like your father, are now mine."

Originally posted by The_Tempest
facepalm

Did you just suggest S66 is worse than SWL? I'm trying to think of a more potentially offensive statement... and I'm drawing blank.

That's just cold, bro.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
But he is right: there hasn't been any evidence to suggest Vitiate is fast enough to contend with Yoda, who is prodigiously fast even among Force adepts (Shadow Hunter).

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
You are overlooking the fact that those Jedi Masters were standing very close to Sidious. They were already in vulnerable position.

Also, you recall when Yoda confronted Sidious for the first time, what happened?

After exchanging statements, Sidious launched a burst of Force Lightning and Yoda watched it coming towards him; getting knocked out afterwards for a brief period.

Sidious is relatively much more aggressive combatant then Yoda is. Yoda, unfortunately, regardless of his power, is more in to defensive posture then aggressive posture.

Funny thing is that Yoda knew that Sidious was not to be taken lightly. And he still adopted defensive posture initially. But I am not surprised by this; Yoda adopted defensive posture against Dooku as well.

Up against Vitiate; this means death or broke. Heck, Revan understood this and was on the offensive since the beginning but couldn't get close to Vitiate; such was the power of latter.

Yoda is not without his flaws; be they mental or whatever.

Those arguments are inconclusive. I suggest that we do not get in to them because they will only mislead us.

Sidious moved like a blur during his duel with Mace. In contrast, Padawan Obi-Wan also once moved like a blur. Therefore, should we assume that Padawan Obi-Wan would match Sidious in speed?

Originally posted by The_Tempest
But if that's all the Encyclopedia has to say, that's still not a decisive instance. It has been pretty exhaustively and successfully argued that Vitiate overwhelmingly relies on preparation and rituals for his most powerful attacks.

If the Dark Council died in this instance through Vitiate's powers, how are we to know such abilities are available to him at whim? Consider his struggles to bring down Revan, among others.

Do you think that Sidious could unleash Force Storm instantly?

Extreme powers require some level of preparation and time to manifest.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
After the confrontation with Darth Angral, Vitiate assumes control over Carsen's body and attempts to kill the player. She is defeated, Vitiate moves to attack again, Carsen claims allegiance to the light side and says Vitiate and the dark side has no power over her, repulsing him.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Nothing suggests that this particular maneuver was necessary to prevent Vitiate's domination of Revan's mind.

Given the resistance to TK than his followers are granted by him and the fact that Vitiates redirected lightning only made himself slide back and his clothes to smoke, I would suggest that nothing Revan could do other than that particular maneuver would have caused Vitiate to lose concentration/affected him.

You could argue that this does not apply to characters more powerful than Revan however, obviously.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Please give me a reasonable argument, and not another baseless fanboy assumption.

You are one big ass hypocrite. I mentioned the word fanboy once when arguing with you and you went on rant how that was out of order, how it's specifically "against the rules" and used it as an excuse to insult the shit out of me for a good 10 pages.

And now look at you. Throwing that word around yourself. And this thread has hardly been a couple of pages and your already insulting the shit out of people.

If you can't handle people expressing an opposing opinion to yours then don't bother coming to a debate forum.

DARTH POWER
You are one big ass hypocrite. I mentioned the word fanboy once when arguing with you and you went on rant how that was out of order, how it's specifically "against the rules" and used it as an excuse to insult the shit out of me for a good 10 pages.

And now look at you. Throwing that word around yourself. And this thread has hardly been a couple of pages and your already insulting the shit out of people.

If you can't handle people expressing an opposing opinion to yours then don't bother coming to a debate forum.

facepalm

It was jadams3928 was the one who traipsed into this thread and started lobbing that particular word about.

Given the hilarious ease with which one could paint all of us as fanboys (jadams, S_W_LeGenD, Nephthys, SIDIOUS_66, you, and me), it's probably best that we just table that discussion.

Let it go, son.

jadams3928
You're not understanding. He was ALWAYS inside her as she was the Emperor's child. He manifests himself through the children at will. He has an unlimited amount "children" out there and he has to separate his will among all his children, as opposed to mentally dominating one person.

He possesses them at once and at all times? I would need evidence of that.

Nephthys
Given the resistance to TK than his followers are granted by him and the fact that Vitiates redirected lightning only made himself slide back and his clothes to smoke, I would suggest that nothing Revan could do other than that particular maneuver would have caused Vitiate to lose concentration/affected him.

This does not follow.
Unlike the Guard, Vitiate was specifically noted to be exerting both concentration and effort to dominating Revan's mind. Perhaps if his attention was fixated on combat and not such overt telepathic control, he would be all but immune to telekinetic attacks.

However, with so much of his strength diverted to another enterprise, there is no reason to assume such immunity remains.

Not to mention that, as with anything else Vitiate achieves during Revan and his battles, the advantage afforded to him by a dark side nexus is considerable. There is no telling that Vitiate, and in turn, the Guard would be so formidable on neutral ground.

Nephthys
You could argue that this does not apply to characters more powerful than Revan however, obviously.

That too.

He possesses them at once and at all times? I would need evidence of that.

This does not follow.
Unlike the Guard, Vitiate was specifically noted to be exerting both concentration and effort to dominating Revan's mind. Perhaps if his attention was fixated on combat and not such overt telepathic control, he would be all but immune to telekinetic attacks.

However, with so much of his strength diverted to another enterprise, there is no reason to assume such immunity remains.

jadams3928
All of the Emperor's children underwent a ritual to have his will imprinted in them.

This, or at least the way it's phrased, does not answer my question.

Carsen does not appear to be under Vitiate's control at all times; when he is possessing her, her body released dark side energy and she speaks in Vitiate's voice.

jadams3928
The argument could be made that Vitiate's exertion was due to Revan not only being prepared for it, but developing a technique for it.

The text only remarks that "this time, however, Revan was ready" (which further suggests Vitiate's success is contingent on preparation his part and lack thereof on part of his enemies) and does not mention any technique.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
This, or at least the way it's phrased, does not answer my question.

Carsen does not appear to be under Vitiate's control at all times; when he is possessing her, her body released dark side energy and she speaks in Vitiate's voice.

The text only remarks that "this time, however, Revan was ready" (which further suggests Vitiate's success is contingent on preparation his part and lack thereof on part of his enemies) and does not mention any technique. [/B]