trunks (dbz) vs hiei (yu yu hakusho) vs zoro (one piece)

Originally posted by KingD19
Well we're getting a bit off topic. Frieza's 100% final form was 120 Million. And we have to assume his cyborg form was either slightly less, or slightly more considering he wasn't in his 100% form, but was more than likely enhanced beyond it with the cybernetics.

And Trunks killed him with just a bit of flash and not all that much effort.

And even though numbers are all over the place, Trunks still easily killed a legit planet buster who made Goku sweat several times before he unlocked the first level of his ultimate power.

That puts him solidly in first place.

Next we have Hiei, wielder of the Dragon of the Darkness Flame, and 2nd in command to one of the 3 most powerful beings in the YYH-verse. She also acknowledges how powerful Hiei himself is. And beings in the S-Class(which Hiei is a part of, albeit in the lower to middle range), can bust mountains as a result of a fight, can sink islands and peninsulas, etc... Puts him in second considering his speed/durability/strength/energy powers/etc...

And Zoro, while awesome, brings up the rear. There's no real debate about that.

Brosmash is a trip. He is trying to find a way to down play DBZ characters as much as he can and the evidence is right there in front of his face. Stated on panel, Goku kamehameha times 3 blast was planetary, Goku hit Frieza with a kamehameha time 20 and Frieza tanked it. What more evidence do you need? Sad thing is, he honestly thinks that in order for DBZ characters durability to be planetary and above, every blast that is shot has to destroy a planet...WTF. Just because every blast from a DBZ character doesn't destroy Earth doesn't make it weaker than a blast that laid waste to a planet.

It common freaking sense that every blast Frieza used against Goku was greater than anything Master Roshi can conjure. Hell, during the Saiyan Saga, Master Roshi even admitted he was useless against the Saiyans and this is a being that vaporized a moon. Brosmash, you are clearly lowballing and doing a bad job at it bro.

Akira made all of this too obvious for people to screw it up and mess it up like some of you all are doing.

Originally posted by jinzin
Sounds like some bull to me. The moon's what? 1/80th the mass of earth and a little over half as dense? I guess you *could* adjust the numbers to that but even then, arguing that DBZ characters aren't dishing and tanking planetary busting power is asinine beyond words and that's ignoring that we adjusted the first set to give every benefit of the doubt *against* Z-fighters.
And....
Nah, only fools think that one has nothing to do with the other when the manga directly told us otherwise.

It takes about 1.23E29 Joules to bust the moon, going by these calculations:

http://cosmoquest.org/forum/archive/index.php/t-20361.html

Someone like dadudemon or Astner could come here and verify the validity of whether or not this is indeed the moon's gravitational binding energy.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gravitational_binding_energy

According to bitchipedia, GBE of Earth is 2.24 · 1032J. Which is actually more like a 2,000 time difference, lol.

I am well-aware that DBZ characters can tank planet-busting attacks, but clearly not all, considering Kid Buu's super planet busting attack.

IIRC there is a scientific principle for why there require exponentially more energy to destroy larger masses, but I can't recall the name.

No. They are not consistent nor explained thoroughly enough to apply math to. From one end of the spectrum, you have the farmer (PL 5) compared to Roshi (PL 139). Roshi can bust the moon. The farmer couldn't destroy a car, which is not a millionth as difficult as busting the moon. This implies that a single PL difference is massive, right? But then compare Freeza (PL 120,000,000) and Goku (150,000,000). That's a 30,000,000 difference, yet Freeza held his own on Goku for quite some time.

Goku allowed Frieza to compete with him and let's not forget, the super Saiyan power level was new to him, he didn't have control of his power. When Goku stopped holding back, he destroyed Frieza. Whatever Frieza did during that fight, Goku allowed it and when he let loose, Frieza wasn't a challenge.

Originally posted by NemeBro
It takes about 1.23E29 Joules to bust the moon, going by these calculations:

http://cosmoquest.org/forum/archive/index.php/t-20361.html

Someone like dadudemon or Astner could come here and verify the validity of whether or not this is indeed the moon's gravitational binding energy.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gravitational_binding_energy

According to bitchipedia, GBE of Earth is 2.24 · 1032J. Which is actually more like a 2,000 time difference, lol.

I am well-aware that DBZ characters can tank planet-busting attacks, but clearly not all, considering Kid Buu's super planet busting attack.

IIRC there is a scientific principle for why there require exponentially more energy to destroy larger masses, but I can't recall the name.

No. They are not consistent nor explained thoroughly enough to apply math to. From one end of the spectrum, you have the farmer (PL 5) compared to Roshi (PL 139). Roshi can bust the moon. The farmer couldn't destroy a car, which is not a millionth as difficult as busting the moon. This implies that a single PL difference is massive, right? But then compare Freeza (PL 120,000,000) and Goku (150,000,000). That's a 30,000,000 difference, yet Freeza held his own on Goku for quite some time.

As I said before, the implication of power levels is that having 2x the strength of a character in all probability makes you many many times more powerful. Again using the farmer (5) vs. Goku (10) example.

The Frieza vs. Goku example is a nice retort to that but at the same time we have to account for tons of variables.

Goku was already physically thrashed when he transformed. Could that have had an effect on how effective or effecient he was supposed to be? Dunno.
By all appearances, Goku let Frieza tag him with numerous shots before he actually started fighting back because he wanted to "see Frieza's best". I understand he was strong but still taking shots will take it's toll. Could *that* have had an effect on him? Dunno.
Later on in the exchange they *do* seem to be exchanging shots at a slightly even level sure but I'd argue there as well.
IMO the handful of melee exchanges that they have were Goku appears to be actively fighting back, while Frieza still lands a couple of good shots in, for the most part he gets absolutely battered. The minute Goku begins an offense he bashes Frieza's face, torques his arm, spins him in circles and tosses him away.
When they are pretty much *done* with the fight Frieza is gasping for air while Goku isn't breathing heavily at all.
By all appearances, he's using less effort in the fight than I've seen men use in light sparring practices. Less than *I* use for sure.
So I think it can be argued convincingly that Goku wasn't pushing himself to the max of his power during that fight, that he was holding back. It's not exactly a full proof example to use by *any* means.

I would address that with Dadudemon's assertion that you need to be around 80% the strength of your opponent to give them something that looks like a fight seems at least like a decent guess.... but in many instances we see that just isn't true.

Zarbon before he transformed was only 1000 less than Vegeta at 24000 (95% of Vegeta's power) and still got cake-walked.
Dadoria, same thing.
So *if* the Frieza example stood (and I really don't think it does), it would be an exception to the rule.

I'll be honest.... I'm a bit too lazy to crunch the numbers using the calculations you've provided.. I mean.. I will if I *have* to but I don't think it's necessary. Going by the numbers I've already provided, every benefit of the doubt given against Z, the number still tops out at 18,000 being enough to dust a planet, which coincidentally enough is how strong Vegeta was when he threatened to blow up the Earth. Makes sense to me and for me it's enough.

So I'll agree that basic math doesn't *really* apply to DBZ characters because of the issue that we've discussed being that 1pl difference is much larger than the ratio implies. The only reason I'm using it in the first place is to cement that even under the worst case scenario were we throw them a MASSSSSIVE bone and ignore that fact, Frieza would STILL need far less than 1 percent of his strength to dust a planet.

Originally posted by carver9
Brosmash is a trip. He is trying to find a way to down play DBZ characters as much as he can and the evidence is right there in front of his face. Stated on panel, Goku kamehameha times 3 blast was planetary, Goku hit Frieza with a kamehameha time 20 and Frieza tanked it. What more evidence do you need?

But you're ignoring the fact that Goku was also weaker from all the damage he was taking from Frieza and from his earlier uses of the Kaio-ken in that fight, as it harms the body as a side effect.

Although that's not to say that the blast was weaker than the one he shot on back on Earth, it probably wasn't "20 times stronger" either. It's also likely that Frieza used ki energy of his own to stop the blast.

Originally posted by carver9
Sad thing is, he honestly thinks that in order for DBZ characters durability to be planetary and above, every blast that is shot has to destroy a planet...WTF. Just because every blast from a DBZ character doesn't destroy Earth doesn't make it weaker than a blast that laid waste to a planet.

There's definitely no evidence of that.

Originally posted by carver9
It common freaking sense that every blast Frieza used against Goku was greater than anything Master Roshi can conjure. Hell, during the Saiyan Saga, Master Roshi even admitted he was useless against the Saiyans and this is a being that vaporized a moon. Brosmash, you are clearly lowballing and doing a bad job at it bro.

Roshi was useless because he wasn't as strong or as fast as anyone else there. Just a moon busting blast wouldn't be enough, especially since he's not the only one who could do that.

I'm not lowballing or anything. I'm in no way saying DBZ characters are weak. They're powerful characters. Heck, I even agree with most of the posters on this topic that Trunks is top dog here (even though I like Hiei and Zoro better) but I don't need to exaggerate his abilities to show that.

And I have NO idea why I keep replacing where with were in that last response.😮

First off, I agree with everything carver said. I'm simply going to elaborate on his statements a bit...

Originally posted by carver9
Stated on panel, Goku kamehameha times 3 blast was planetary,

Originally posted by carver9
Goku hit Frieza with a kamehameha time 20 and Frieza tanked it. What more evidence do you need?

Originally posted by carver9
Sad thing is, he honestly thinks that in order for DBZ characters durability to be planetary and above, every blast that is shot has to destroy a planet...WTF. Just because every blast from a DBZ character doesn't destroy Earth doesn't make it weaker than a blast that laid waste to a planet.

Originally posted by carver9
It common freaking sense that every blast Frieza used against Goku was greater than anything Master Roshi can conjure.

If Roshi(PL=139) were to blast first form Frieza(PL=530,000) with his 'moon buster', what do you think would happen? Probably the same thing that happens ANY time a weaker character blasts a more powerful character: NOTHING.

Examples...
Nail vs. Frieza:
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/14613016/DB291-05.gif.html
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/14613017/DB291-06.gif.html
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/14613018/DB291-07.gif.html

Piccolo vs. Cell:
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/14613009/310906.gif.html
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/14613010/310907.gif.html
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/14613013/310908.gif.html
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/14613014/310909.gif.html
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/14613015/310910.gif.html

Originally posted by Galan007
Vegeta's PL was 15,000 and he was capable of planet-busting. Goku's PL (/w/ x3 kaioken) was 32,000, and he clearly manifested a more powerful blast than Vegeta--- which means his blast was likely far beyond planetary.

A mere assumption that's never proven on panel.

Originally posted by Galan007
Goku's base PL at the time was 3,000,000, which made his PL 60,000,000 after a x20 kaioken, and he was able to harm 50% power Frieza with his blast... That blast could have easily busted a planet.

Another assumption. Like I said, Freiza likely used his own ki power to stop it and if he didn't charge it up the way he did on Earth, then there's a good chance that it wasn't more powerful.

Originally posted by Galan007
Exactly. DBZ attacks cannot be measured solely by the collateral damage they produce.

That's the only way to determine how powerful they are.

Originally posted by Galan007
👆

If Roshi(PL=139) were to blast first form Frieza(PL=530,000) with his 'moon buster', what do you think would happen? Probably the same thing that happens ANY time a weaker character blasts a more powerful character: NOTHING.

Unless they stand there and not do anything.

Originally posted by Bro SMASH
A mere assumption that's never proven on panel.

Originally posted by Bro SMASH
Another assumption. Like I said, Freiza likely used his own ki power to stop it and if he didn't charge it up the way he did on Earth, then there's a good chance that it wasn't more powerful.

Goku's PL was 60,000,000 when he fought Frieza. It was 32,000 when he fought Vegeta. Are you honestly trying to say that the Kamehameha Goku used (with a x3 kaioken amp) against Vegeta was more powerful than the Kamehameha he used (with a x20 kaioken amp) against Frieza? Do you not see how dumb that sounds? Frieza outright said that Goku's blast nearly killed him, so it's not like he [Goku] was holding back.

Originally posted by Bro SMASH
That's the only way to determine how powerful they are.

Originally posted by Bro SMASH
Unless they stand there and not do anything.

Originally posted by Galan007
So Roshi, with a PL of 139, was capable of harming Frieza? This is unquestionably the dumbest thing I've heard in quite some time.

Originally posted by Galan007
The writer is using a character in his own story to TELL US how powerful the blast was. It would be utterly illogical, and moreover ridiculous, to assume that Vegeta's statement was false/inaccurate. If you're going to baselessly question one character's statement, then you must question ALL statements made by ALL characters. Are you really prepared to do that, or would you rather just admit how laughably absurd that is?[/B/]

The part about the blast being "far beyond planetary" is an assumption. That was never said by Vegeta or anybody. Heck, even you're not 100% sure of it.

Originally posted by Galan007
[B]What the heck?

Goku's PL was 60,000,000 when he fought Frieza. It was 32,000 when he fought Vegeta. Are you honestly trying to say that the Kamehameha Goku used (with a x3 kaioken amp) against Vegeta was more powerful than the Kamehameha he used (with a x20 kaioken amp) against Frieza? Do you not see how dumb that sounds? Frieza outright said that Goku's blast nearly killed him, so it's not like he [Goku] was holding back.

You're also once again ignoring the fact that Goku was weakened and Frieza was caught off-guard because he had the advantage.

Originally posted by Galan007
Not in DBZ. If you think otherwise, then you need to read up a bit.

Perhaps you should take your own advice.

Originally posted by Galan007
So Roshi, with a PL of 139, was capable of harming Frieza? This is unquestionably the dumbest thing I've heard in quite some time.

You make it seem like weaker characters never harmed stronger characters. They have if they let their guards down. Cell got destracted by Vegeta's blast and Vegeta was weaker. Gohan kicked Nappa into a rock and Gohan was weaker.

Oh and jinzin, stay in a child's place.

Originally posted by Bro SMASH

You make it seem like weaker characters never harmed stronger characters. They have if they let their guards down. Cell got destracted by Vegeta's blast and Vegeta was weaker. Gohan kicked Nappa into a rock and Gohan was weaker.

Oh and jinzin, stay in a child's place.

Sure weaker characters have harmed stronger characters, but within reason.

Jackie Chun level Roshi is not going to hurt Frieza. Not 1st Form, and certainly not anything after that.

Originally posted by Bro SMASH
The part about the blast being "far beyond planetary" is an assumption. That was never said by Vegeta or anybody. Heck, even you're not 100% sure of it.

In short, Goku's PL was more than twice that of Vegeta's, and his Kamehameha was a lot more powerful than the Galick Gun. It is perfectly logical to assume said Kamehameha WAS far beyond planetary. Heck, it would be illogical to assume otherwise. /shrug

Originally posted by Bro SMASH
You're also once again ignoring the fact that Goku was weakened and Frieza was caught off-guard because he had the advantage.

So like I said, Goku's PL /w/ a 20x kaioken amp was 60,000,000, and he damn near killed 50% powered Frieza with his Kamehameha. Certainly you don't think Roshi's moon buster could have done the same to Frieza..?
srsly

Originally posted by Bro SMASH
Perhaps you should take your own advice.

Originally posted by Bro SMASH
You make it seem like weaker characters never harmed stronger characters. They have if they let their guards down. Cell got destracted by Vegeta's blast and Vegeta was weaker. Gohan kicked Nappa into a rock and Gohan was weaker.

In this case, we know Roshi's PL was 139 when he busted the moon, and we know base form Frieza's PL was 530,000. This means Frieza's power was 381,294% greater than Roshi's! It is utterly laughable to assume that Roshi would be capable of harming a being that is more powerful than himself by several hundred thousand percent.
srsly

Originally posted by KingD19
Sure weaker characters have harmed stronger characters, but within reason.

Jackie Chun level Roshi is not going to hurt Frieza. Not 1st Form, and certainly not anything after that.

Pffft seriously, Roshi doesn't have a prayer of hurting Child Vegeta. There's no reason to even bring Frieza up in the same breath.

His strongest blast might have given Vegeta a nice haircut.

Lol doubtful.. but I like the idea.

Vegeta: Alright old man. Just a little off the top. I want that battle damage, singed look from the pictures.

Roshi: Alright, I know whatcha mean. I used to cut Korrin's hair dont'cha know?

-deep breath- KAMEHAMEHA!!!!

-smoke clears, nothing has changed-

Nappa- I think it looks good, Vegeta.

Vegeta - Dammit, Nappa. You haven't had hair for 60 years, your judgement is lacking in this situation.

Originally posted by Galan007
Vegeta's PL was 15,000. Goku's PL was 32,000. Vegeta's blast was capable of destroying the earth. Goku's blast overpowered his.

In short, Goku's PL was more than twice that of Vegeta's, and his Kamehameha was a lot more powerful than the Galick Gun. It is perfectly logical to assume said Kamehameha WAS far beyond planetary. Heck, it would be illogical to assume otherwise. /shrug

No it isn't. It would be more logical to assume that maybe it would have destroyed a planet much easier than Vegeta's Galick Gun. But more than that? No way!

Originally posted by Galan007
The Daizenshuu states that Goku's base PL when he fought Frieza was 3,000,000, and then 150,000,000 when he transformed into a SSJ. Therefore, his PL WOULD have still been 3 million upon transforming into a SSJ. Why? Because said transformation increases a Saiyan's power by 50x(3,000,000*50=150,000,000.) You cannot argue with Daizenshuu figures.

So like I said, Goku's PL /w/ a 20x kaioken amp was 60,000,000, and he damn near killed 50% powered Frieza with his Kamehameha. Certainly you don't think Roshi's moon buster could have done the same to Frieza..?
srsly

Once again, it only "nearly killed Frieza" because he was off-guard. Frieza wasn't dying, he just had a hard time defending it because he wasn't doing it fast enough.

Do you really think Frieza will shug off planet or moon busting attacks without preparing to defend himself first? I'll tell you right now that he wouldn't.

Originally posted by Galan007
My friend, the nerdery I possesses where DBZ is concerned vastly outclasses your own. 😉

Don't get so cocky.

Originally posted by Galan007
When characters are fairly close in power, they are able to harm one another to varying degrees. If their powers aren't close(as is the case here), then the more powerful character typically no sells any attacks thrown his way (see the examples I posted above.)

In this case, we know Roshi's PL was 139 when he busted the moon, and we know base form Frieza's PL was 530,000. This means Frieza's power was [b]381,294% greater than Roshi's! It is utterly laughable to assume that Roshi would be capable of harming a being that is more powerful than himself by several hundred thousand percent.
srsly [/B]

It really isn't.

Okay, let me put it like this, while it does make sense that if a character's power is close enough to a stronger character, they can deal some damage to them but it's also the case of the more stronger their opponents are, the more energy have to put in to harm them. For Gohan and Vegeta, they didn't have to use their strongest attacks they weren't that much weaker their enemies, but it would be the case for Roshi...and despite that, notice how I never said Roshi is stronger than Frieza. Even if Roshi's moon busting Kamehameha could hurt Frieza, that doesn't mean much because Frieza either take him out before the thought even occured or cancel it out with a blast of his own. But there's no way I'm gonna say that it's completely ineffective to a vulnerable Frieza.

Originally posted by Bro SMASH
But there's no way I'm gonna say that it's completely ineffective to a vulnerable Frieza.

Frankly I am dumbfounded by the level of low-balling you've displayed. I have never heard anyone so much as suggest that Roshi would be capable of harming base form Frieza... Let alone final form Frieza. Lets do the math: Roshi's PL=139. Final form Frieza's PL(@50%)=60,000,000. Ergo, Frieza was 43,165,367% more powerful than Roshi! Hell, when base form Frieza fought Nail, he [Frieza] literally no sold EVERY attack Nail threw at him, and at the time Nail's PL=42,000 and Frieza's PL=530,000--- which equates to a power difference of 1,161%. That in itself is a HUGE gap in power, yet it is still utterly insignificant next to the difference between Roshi and final form Frieza (which, again, is a difference of over 43 MILLION percent!)

Point: if Nail's best efforts were entirely ineffectual against base form Frieza, then Roshi sure as hell isn't doing shit to final form Frieza. End of story.

I'm done with this subject. Troll someone else. 👆