That's exactly what he wants me to do. I'm not falling for it. Not that I'm going to bother responding anymore. ^_^
Originally posted by Rookwood
I give props for the interesting post.But the passage doesn't do anything to demonstrate that Nihilus shed his body after the destruction of Malachor.
The passage comes after he is trapped on Malachor, after he is found by Traya and after he has already fed on 'entire planets'. I have the source, so if you would like the entire passage in the order its written, I can type it up. I guess. 😬
Originally posted by Rookwood
Although, if it did, ironically, it would prove that he did indeed use his Force abilities to tank the blast that ripped a planet into five or six different pieces.Which would be even more impressive, considering he tanked a planet exploding apart, whilst maintaining a human body.
Except that there were other survivors.
Originally posted by Rookwood
You're forgetting that when the MSG went off, the planet was ripped into five or six different pieces (which would take the equivalent of millions of nuclear weapons to accomplish), and that there were ships that orbited the planet, where the survivors would be.
Lol, and Nihilus flew up to them so he could drain them did he?
Also, wtf, all the ships on Malachor were orbiting it before the battle, but now they're on the surface. They're all wreckage of the battle that was fought there.
Originally posted by Rookwood
Afterward, the same MSG was used to temporarily hold those five or six chunks of the planet back together into a whole, and in doing so many ships that had orbited the world, avoiding the brunt of the blast, were downed again.Lastly, if you remember, the Ravager also, was largely among the surviving vessels that orbited the planet during and after the destruction.
No, the Ravager was hauled from the surface of Malachor by Nihilus. Given the relatively light damage done to it, it serves as proof that you don't need to have planet-durability to not have been annihilated in the MSG's activation.
Originally posted by The_Tempest
lolNah. Earlier today, you said you'd be "happy to debate" me. Now, you're tucking tail and running. The credit I award myself is merely a straightforward interpretation of your actions. You're waving your wounded pride in the white flag of surrender when you should simply concede to your use of double standards and humbly request that I extend you a courtesy you denied others.
You'll find that I am a merciful master.
And I would be happy to debate you. It's just that in this case you are clearly looking for a fight, not a debate. I'm not going to defend an argument you've already conceded as if I owe you an explanation. And I just can't be bother with the grief.
Originally posted by NemeBro
I have to be at work in a few minutes, so can't respond to Arhael or whatever his ****ing name is, but Nepthys, you should really learn the benefits of Occam's Razor as a tool. Using it would make debating your point against Tempest a bit easier.
Occam's Razor is irrelevant under a paradigm that doesn't allow for anything other than painstakingly specific language. A paradigm that Nephthys subscribes to when it favors his agenda.
I'm just here to make sure we all engage in discourse under common standards. Otherwise, all it becomes is a perpetual pissing match determined only by which person loves which character more.
Originally posted by The_Tempest
Nephthys also pointed out that Malachor V saw other survivors whom the campaign guide says Nihilus drained.You... left that part out.
- Correct.
There were survivors in some of the ships orbiting the planet, when it was split into five or six different pieces (the force-equivalent of millions of thermo-nuclear weapons going off)
To make matters worse, this splitting into five or six different pieces? Radiated from the core of the planet - which means, in addition to massive gravatic-damage that you would expect if, say the Earth split into five or six separate - chunks - it also would have gushed oceans of lava everywhere, and what the kinetic dispersal and fire didn't kill, the ash the filled the air everywhere, would.
Basically, it's the KT-Extinction Event - times a thousand. (Because the monstrous event that nearly wiped out life on Earth, only occurred with a surface-razing - in contrast to Malachor - where the planet literally split into five different pieces - from the core, out)
So there were no survivors on the surface - but there were survivors in the ships that orbited the planet.
Just like the Ravager's crew.
Originally posted by The_Tempest
You misread my quoted post really badly, btw. He's not being harsh at all.
Sorry..
Nephthys
And I would be happy to debate you. It's just that in this case you are clearly looking for a fight, not a debate. I'm not going to defend an argument you've already conceded as if I owe you an explanation. And I just can't be bother with the grief.
My motivation is irrelevant. When you told me you'd "be happy" to debate me, you did not specify or couch your glee under specific circumstances nor did you demand that they be tailored to a precise goal.
What you're doing now is simply moving the goalpost in order to camouflage the fact that you're utterly screwed.
Originally posted by Nephthys
The passage comes after he is trapped on Malachor, after he is found by Traya and after he has already fed on 'entire planets'. I have the source, so if you would like the entire passage in the order its written, I can type it up. I guess. 😬
Well, I don't want you to do something if you feel it will waste time and energy.
But seriously, if he tanked that explosion in a human body. Holy fvck.
That actually does help my point. 🙂
Originally posted by Nephthys
Except that there were other survivors.
Correct. In orbit around the fracturing, gushing planet.
Originally posted by Nephthys
Lol, and Nihilus flew up to them so he could drain them did he?
No - he pulled them, down to him. 🙂
Originally posted by Nephthys
No, the Ravager was hauled from the surface of Malachor by Nihilus. Given the relatively light damage done to it, it serves as proof that you don't need to have planet-durability to not have been annihilated in the MSG's activation.
No, actually, it was pulled from orbit - not the surface.
Given the literal world-shattering blast that occurred there, it also makes sense, seeing as how the ship had little damage to it, as you pointed out.
But because it was in orbit, not on the surface. And if you have a book on this with you physically where you are, it will point out this fact.
Originally posted by Rookwood
Well, I don't want you to do something if you feel it will waste time and energy.But seriously, if he tanked that explosion in a human body. Holy fvck.
That actually does help my point. 🙂
The MSG is not a bomb, it massively increases gravity to cause the fleets in the area of effect to be 'dragged down' (Malachor entry) and crushed on the planets surface.
Hell, Bao-Dur survived activating it with only losing an arm.
Originally posted by Rookwood
Correct. In orbit around the fracturing, gushing planet.
I'd be interested in where you're getting your information from.
Originally posted by Rookwood
No - he pulled them, down to him. 🙂
With a big hook I take it? Nihilus, like the Exile cut himself off from the Force at Malachor. In his entry it describes him as having a 'great emptiness' after the battle that he hungers to fill and he's described as 'a gaping wound in the Force.' He could not have pulled them to the surface.
Originally posted by Rookwood
No, actually, it was pulled from orbit - not the surface.Given the literal world-shattering blast that occurred there, it also makes sense, seeing as how the ship had little damage to it, as you pointed out.
Again, where are you getting this from? The loading screen says that it was 'hauled from the gravity well at Malachor V'. Nothing suggests that it was orbiting the planet.
There was no blast.
Originally posted by Rookwood
But because it was in orbit, not on the surface. And if you have a book on this with you physically where you are, it will point out this fact.
It does not.
Furthermore, recall that Trayas Academy also survived the MSG.
I will give Vitiate this, he would have been immensely stronger than Katarr Nihilus if he had managed his final ritual.
But then, if Nihilus hadn't been stopped, he would have eventually found the hunger to consume the rest of the galaxy at once..at which point he would destroy any form of Vitiate.
The Dark gives the greatest power to Nihilist Sith Lords, this is the accurate doctrine of the Sorcerers of Rhand who adhere to the Way of the Dark. Where they are wrong is that nihilistic Sith don't prevail, it's opposite, Sith like Sidious prevail for being more inventive and clever and manipulative...however they were right that the Dark grants more power to Sith who are more likely to cause more death and destruction...and you can't cause much more than Darth Nihilus could. Vitiate's deadly rituals involving essence consumption gave him quite a bit of power from the Dark, but Nihilus' methods were more destructive overall, and he was more dependant on killing than Vitiate, it became his primary food source...so of the course he'd be stronger in the Dark Side.
Originally posted by Nephthys
The MSG is not a bomb, it massively increases gravity to cause the fleets in the area of effect to be 'dragged down' (Malachor entry) and crushed on the planets surface.Hell, Bao-Dur survived activating it with only losing an arm.
The MSG literally split the planet itself, into five separate pieces - from the core, outward.
Basically like I said above, it had the equivalent force of millions of thermo-nuclear explosions. A literal KT-Extinction Event - times a thousand.
And when Bao-Dur activated the MSG, he was standing in a ship, alongside Meetra Surik.
Every human on that planet below, died.
I forgot to add the fact, that with the planet splitting into five different pieces (no longer whole and floating apart) there would massive gravatic force, ripping everything to pieces, oceans of lava welling up from an exposed-core - and no atmosphere - because it wasn't a planet any longer.
And that was all during the destruction. So no survivors on the surface.
Originally posted by Nephthys
I'd be interested in where you're getting your information from.
Descriptions, of the destruction.
But anything I could glean from any text on the subject - pales in comparison to an actual picture of the "planet", after the destruction.
Originally posted by Nephthys
With a big hook I take it? Nihilus, like the Exile cut himself off from the Force at Malachor. In his entry it describes him as having a 'great emptiness' after the battle that he hungers to fill and he's described as 'a gaping wound in the Force.' He could not have pulled them to the surface.
His "great emptiness" and being a "gaping wound in the Force" merely describes what his nature was warped into, after the death and destruction.
It doesn't mean he couldn't manipulate the Force - he was a walking black hole made up entirely of it.
That's why he could use the Force to drain the Force from people, and pull the Ravager out of the Planet's orbit, to escape.
Not to mention use the Force to enslave it's crew.
Originally posted by Nephthys
Again, where are you getting this from? The loading screen says that it was 'hauled [b]from the gravity well at Malachor V'. Nothing suggests that it was orbiting the planet.[/B]
- That's what a "Gravity-well" is - it's the influence of the planetoid's gravity on objects in it's orbit - such as the gravity-well of Jupiter, which can pull in asteroids, satellites, etc.
Originally posted by Nephthys
There was no blast.
Actually - to use the word "blast", would serve as an understatement to what actually happened.
A planet, splitting into five different pieces - from the core itself, and literally gravatically-ripping everything apart, cooking it's surace with fire and lava, and finally having it's atmosphere destroyed, as the pieces of the shattered world literally float apart, does make the word "blast" a bit of an understatement.
Originally posted by Nephthys
It does not.
You know, ironically, this is the first I've ever heard of the Ravager being taken from the surface.
- Every website on the internet says that it was taken from the orbit of the graveyard around Malachor V.
Only one individual I've seen, says otherwise, so I'm wondering what your source was for that?
- I hate to ask like that, but in the wake of what I've seen while researching, apparently your statement is the minority.
Originally posted by Nephthys
Furthermore, recall that Trayas Academy also survived the MSG.
Just as Nihilus, the Trayus Academy absorbed death and destruction through the Force, making it a location of power.
It was this same location that was used to convert Jedi and soldiers brought there by Revan.
As such, it was the only structure that completely survived the destruction of the planet. But it was abandoned at the time anyway.
Originally posted by Rookwood
The MSG literally split the planet itself, into five separate pieces - from the core, outward.
Where is it stated that it was from the core outwards?
Originally posted by Rookwood
Basically like I said above, it had the equivalent force of millions of thermo-nuclear explosions. A literal KT-Extinction Event - times a thousand.
Where is there any mention of an explosion in the destruction of Malachor?
Originally posted by Rookwood
And when Bao-Dur activated the MSG, he was standing in a ship, alongside Meetra Surik.
Where is it mentioned where Bao-Dur was stationed in the battle?
Originally posted by Rookwood
Every human on that planet below, died.
Where is it said that there were any people actually on Malachor at the time? For all we know the whole fight happened in space. Revan boarded Mandalores ship, theres no mention of any fighting on the ground.
Originally posted by Rookwood
I forgot to add the fact, that with the planet splitting into five different pieces (no longer whole and floating apart) there would massive gravatic force, ripping everything to pieces, oceans of lava welling up from an exposed-core - and no atmosphere - because it wasn't a planet any longer.And that was all during the destruction. So no survivors on the surface.
Then how was Nihilus able to drain numerous survivors of the Force?
Yes, I know you seem to think that all the survivors were in ships orbiting the planet, which is frankly stupid. We see the 'graveyard' orbiting Malachor:
Does it look like anyone could survive on those ships? The Ravager, the only spaceworthy ship from Malachor had huge holes in it and needed Nihilus to render it capable of being able to function. And if there were any survivors on ships orbiting the planet, Revan would have rescued them, even the Mandalorians since Canderous makes it clear that Revan spared and treated the Mandalorians and their wounded after their defeat, only taking their weapons away.
Originally posted by Rookwood
Descriptions, of the destruction.But anything I could glean from any text on the subject - pales in comparison to an actual picture of the "planet", after the destruction.
Which descriptions?
Yes, I know that I'm asking you to provide a lot of sources that I know from your PM you don't have. But maybe the reason why you can't find any evidence to support all this is because.... it doesn't exist? You are making numerous claims that you cannot back up in any way, many of which simply baffle me because I do not recall any mention of these facts in the game, and I am the foremost authority on Kotor II on this forum if I may toot my own horn.
Originally posted by Rookwood
His "great emptiness" and being a "gaping wound in the Force" merely describes what his nature was warped into, after the death and destruction.
The Exile is described using the exact same terms.
Originally posted by Rookwood
It doesn't mean he couldn't manipulate the Force - he was a walking black hole made up entirely of it.
No he was not. Not at that time at least.
Originally posted by Rookwood
That's why he could use the Force to drain the Force from people,
The Exile could also do this despite being cut off from the Force 'so utterly that it causes a wound in the Force.'
Originally posted by Rookwood
and pull the Ravager out of the Planet's orbit, to escape.
Which is only after he developed the technique 'to radical heights' and drained the Force from numerous beings.
Originally posted by Rookwood
Not to mention use the Force to enslave it's crew.
This is another aspect of the technique that Nihilus, the Sith Assassins and the Exile utilise.
Originally posted by Rookwood
- That's what a "Gravity-well" is - it's the influence of the planetoid's gravity on objects in it's orbit - such as the gravity-well of Jupiter, which can pull in asteroids, satellites, etc.
Except that the quote says that it was 'hauled from the gravity well'. A planets surface is still considered to be inside the gravity well. Therefore the only acceptable interpretation of the quote is that Nihilus used the Force to pull the Ravager away from Malachor.
Originally posted by Rookwood
You know, ironically, this is the first I've ever heard of the Ravager being taken from the surface.- Every website on the internet says that it was taken from the orbit of the graveyard around Malachor V.
Only one individual I've seen, says otherwise, so I'm wondering what your source was for that?
- I hate to ask like that, but in the wake of what I've seen while researching, apparently your statement is the minority.
This is known as the logical fallacy Argumentum ad populum. I don't give a flying fvck what those other websites say. They are wrong.
Originally posted by Rookwood
Just as Nihilus, the Trayus Academy absorbed death and destruction through the Force, making it a location of power.It was this same location that was used to convert Jedi and soldiers brought there by Revan. As such, it was the only structure that completely survived the destruction of the planet. But it was abandoned at the time anyway.
Lolwut? A building absorbed death and destruction through the Force? A non-sentient pile of stone used Nihilus' technique to absorb death? And this gave it the power to tank the planet being obliterated around it? Can I get another Lolwut over here or do you get the picture?
Originally posted by Nephthys
Where is there any mention of an explosion in the destruction of Malachor?
An explosion would logically follow the effect of a planet being struck with force so great, that it literally splits the planet into pieces.
Originally posted by Nephthys
Where is it said that there were any people actually on Malachor at the time? For all we know the whole fight happened in space. Revan boarded Mandalores ship, theres no mention of any fighting on the ground.
- Already an agricultural world (a place for farms or source for foodstuffs) Malachor V was also an important location for the Mandalorians, and as a habitable planet, it would make sense that they would have at least some forces there.
Originally posted by Nephthys
Then how was Nihilus able to drain numerous survivors of the Force?Yes, I know you seem to think that all the survivors were in ships orbiting the planet, which is frankly stupid. We see the 'graveyard' orbiting Malachor:
Does it look like anyone could survive on those ships? The Ravager, the only spaceworthy ship from Malachor had huge holes in it and needed Nihilus to render it capable of being able to function. And if there were any survivors on ships orbiting the planet, Revan would have rescued them, even the Mandalorians since Canderous makes it clear that Revan spared and treated the Mandalorians and their wounded after their defeat, only taking their weapons away.
Likely, the Ravager itself.
He would, after all, likely require a crew to operate it, in order to traverse space, and he did after all pull it down from the orbit of the planet, and use it to escape said planet.
Originally posted by Nephthys
Which descriptions?Yes, I know that I'm asking you to provide a lot of sources that I know from your PM you don't have. But maybe the reason why you can't find any evidence to support all this is because.... it doesn't exist? You are making numerous claims that you cannot back up in any way, many of which simply baffle me because I do not recall any mention of these facts in the game,
Essentially, a planet, once habitable with vegetation - reduced to a husk, and covered with a surface that, amongst other things, was the end result of massive volcanic activity - which could not have occurred on that scale, unless it's core had been exposed.
And in order to expose the core of planet, it would have to be disassembled and broken into pieces - which, it was.
It can be likened to coming across a corpse in an alley; seeing it riddled with numerous bloody holes.
You could assume the man had fallen from a rooftop and died that way - or perhaps been struck with a vehicle - but the damage, tells the story of what really happened.
Originally posted by Nephthys
and I am the foremost authority on Kotor II on this forum if I may toot my own horn.
My patience with you is infinite.
And yes, you certainly are an utmost expert on this particular subject - which is what makes this debate so special and fascinating.
It's like two masters of Chess, going at it, against each other.
Originally posted by Nephthys
The Exile is described using the exact same terms.
The Exile could also do this despite being cut off from the Force 'so utterly that it causes a wound in the Force.'
But we know the Exile's nature is different.
She cut herself off from the deafening destruction and death in the Force - as a means of defense and coping with the trauma she felt within those echoes.
With Nihilus - he became a literal manifestation of those echoes of death - a Wound, that sought to devour the Force around him - using the Force itself, to do so.
Originally posted by Nephthys
No he was not. Not at that time at least.
- If this were true - it would make Nihilus's survival of this cataclysmic event all the more impressive.
Staggering; considering the amount of Force needed to protect a human flesh and blood body from such monstrously destructive energies.
Originally posted by Nephthys
Which is only after he developed the technique 'to radical heights' and drained the Force from numerous beings.
The development of a technique to radical heights, was the Drain - not telekinesis.
And if what you said earlier about him tanking the destruction in a human body is true, then it makes sense that he would also be strong enough to wrest a warship from the orbit of the planet.
Originally posted by Nephthys
This is another aspect of the technique that Nihilus, the Sith Assassins and the Exile utilise.
Correct. 🙂
Originally posted by Nephthys
Except that the quote says that it was 'hauled [b]from the gravity well'. A planets surface is still considered to be inside the gravity well. Therefore the only acceptable interpretation of the quote is that Nihilus used the Force to pull the Ravager away from Malachor.[/B]
Well correct - the Gravity-Well is located around the planet, and when the quote says it was hauled "from" - that means the ship was taken from the gravatic field around the planet and brought down to the surface, where he was.
Like, if you were to reach out and take something from my hand - I would standing outside of your center, and you would be taking an object and moving it back to you.
Originally posted by Nephthys
Where is it stated that it was from the core outwards?
Where is it mentioned where Bao-Dur was stationed in the battle?
This is known as the logical fallacy Argumentum ad populum. I don't give a flying fvck what those other websites say. They are wrong.
But that's sort of the problem - there are a dozen or more websites on the internet that all say the same thing, and then there is one person who says differently.
My respect for your knowledge and viewpoints is not in question - but the contrast in numbers here is significant, and it does render your view as the minority.
I'm sure we are not unique in wanting to procure information from official sources, and those numerous websites all sought the same thing. And it is from those other numerous sources, all corresponding with each other, that state those things.
Originally posted by Nephthys
Lolwut? A building absorbed death and destruction through the Force? A non-sentient pile of stone used Nihilus' technique to absorb death? And this gave it the power to tank the planet being obliterated around it? Can I get another Lolwut over here or do you get the picture?
I actually share that sentiment - trust me.
But the location itself did absorb the echoes of death and destruction and did become a place of power in the Dark side of the Force, so I suppose their implication is not surprising.
So, basically, if what has been said about Vitiate's immortality is true - then Nihilus can only kill him with the Drain - unless Vitiate is a Force Wound.
In contrast - Vitiate literally cannot do anything to harm Nihilus. (Especially if Nihilus is fully-empowered)
Vitiate could literally stand there for as long as he liked - throwing every destructive attack at Nihilus - and it wouldn't even scratch the Lord of Hunger.
Vitiate is a nice quick meal for Nihilus here.
Perhaps the tastiest meal he could eat, besides Palpatine.