Originally posted by Rookwood
Do you have some proof for that? (Screen cap, Wiki article, page scan from book - any one of those)
Originally posted by Rookwood
Also, I'd be curious to know if he's a Force Wound, or not..
Force wounds eventually heal as apparent from the example of Meetra Surik.
Originally posted by Rookwood
Except he needed the aid of thousands of Sith Lords to accomplish this, which isn't particularly impressive.
Vitiate's command of the dark side ensured his success in the deadliest of all dark side rituals ever attempted.
Originally posted by Rookwood
Unfortunately I've seen nothing in the Emperor's repertoire that would suggest he can destroy a planet, or even utilize telekinesis to do anything much more impressive than Sidious (if even that).
According to Star Wars The Complete Encyclopedia; Nihilus was no match for the combined might for Meetra Surik and Visas Marr.
Should I continue to rip your argument apart further?
Originally posted by Rookwood
Nihilus can withstand the multi-million mega-ton force that can rip an entire planet apart, so I doubt Vitiate can do anything with his powers that will even tickle Nihilus.
Originally posted by Rookwood
Nihilus can laughably tank anything Vitiate throws at him, and then eat him at his leisure. (Kind of like eating a live tiny creature at a fancy restaurant)Again, Nihilus wins here.
I can argue that Darth Jadus was much more impressive then Nihilus in similar circumstances.
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Life Essence cannot be drained. And Vitiate canfighteveninessencephaseImmortalityForce woundForce wounds eventually heal as apparent from the example of Meetra SurikIt is the deadliest dark side ritual ever attempted. Ever read some novels about dark side rituals and failures they often result inVitiate's command of the dark side ensured his success in the deadliest of all daside rituals ever attemptedYou do not understand how Nihilus functions. He packs lot of draining power but hesucks as a combatantAccording to Star Wars The Complete Encyclopedia; Nihilus was no match for thcombined might for Meetra Surik and Visas MarrShould I continue to rip your argument apart furtherUtter fail of logic here. Their were other survivors besides him. He tanked shit; his ship likely saved him from the worstIn your dreams only. Nihilus is not special without his draining abilities. He accomplished jack when enemies challenged him on his own flagshipI can argue that Darth Jadus was much more impressive then Nihilus in similar circumstances.
Originally posted by NemeBro
He was, as per the game, drained and weakened by his attempt at consuming the Exile, and was already starving when he reached Telos.You suck.
@ Rookwood
Childish responses aren't going to win you any accolades here.
Life essence cannot be drained or destroyed through conventional means/Force powers. As an example: when Sidious lost control of his Force Storm (thanks to the Jedi), it destroyed his ship and physical body; but not his life essence.
Originally posted by Rookwood
Life Essence is Force energy, which is what Nihilus eats.
Also, in removed content, Nihilus was unable to kill Sion in a duel with his draining abilities. The intent was clear that immortal individuals cannot be destroyed through conventional means.
Force Storm can shatter the fabric of space itself. And yet, it couldn't consume Life Essence.
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Bullshit. Last time I checked, Nihilus was not creating voids in the Force. If he could consume Force energy, then he would have been eating the Force itself instead of draining organic beings.
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Also, in removed content, Nihilus was unable to kill Sion in a duel with his draining abilities.
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Force Storm can shatter the fabric of space itself. And yet, it couldn't consume Life Essence.
Originally posted by Rookwood
An explosion would logically follow the effect of a planet being struck with force so great, that it literally splits the planet into pieces.
After an exhaustive search of the Kotor CG of about 5 minutes, I have found the entry for the Mass Shadow Generator:
'Utilized to deal a crushing defeat to the Mandalorians at Malachor V, the Mass Shadow Generator is a superweapon designed to draw upon the natural gravity shadows generated by a planet to unleash massive devestation on everything within the vicinity of the planet on which it is used.' - pg 109
As I have said, the MSG is a gravity weapon. It's called the Mass Shadow Generator for a reason, because it generates gravity shadows or ampifies them or something. Either way, it has something to do with gravity shadows, not an explosion. That Malachor has been split into pieces is likely the result of the planet being condensed until it broke, like it you tried to squeeze an apple in a vice.
Originally posted by Rookwood
- Already an agricultural world (a place for farms or source for foodstuffs) Malachor V was also an important location for the Mandalorians, and as a habitable planet, it would make sense that they would have at least some forces there.
Ok, conceeded. Re-checking Malachor's entry in the Kotor CG it mentions military bases on the surface. However that just proves where there could be survivors on the planet. The CG also says that the MSG destroys 'nearly everything' on the planets surface, not everything.
Originally posted by Rookwood
Likely, the Ravager itself.He would, after all, likely require a crew to operate it, in order to traverse space, and he did after all pull it down from the orbit of the planet, and use it to escape said planet.
Again, the Campaign Guide sheds light on this, saying that 'Darth Nihilus raised the Ravager from the ruined surface of Malachor V' (pg 163) and that 'thousands of ships were dragged down to the planets surface' (pg 120).
So there, the Ravager was canonically on the surface of Malachor and so were thousands of ships.
Originally posted by Rookwood
Essentially, a planet, once habitable with vegetation - reduced to a husk, and covered with a surface that, amongst other things, was the end result of massive volcanic activity - which could not have occurred on that scale, unless it's core had been exposed.And in order to expose the core of planet, it would have to be disassembled and broken into pieces - which, it was.
It can be likened to coming across a corpse in an alley; seeing it riddled with numerous bloody holes.
You could assume the man had fallen from a rooftop and died that way - or perhaps been struck with a vehicle - but the damage, tells the story of what really happened.
Dude, you don't know how the MSG works so you can't act as if you know the only way Malachor could have ended up like that.
Did you make that picture? Its a shame that you or someone else spent so much time on something that's wrong.
Either way, this is besides the original point. I asked you where you got information about survivors being on ships orbiting the planet and you said that it was from descriptions of the destruction and its appearance in the game. Facing such a huge achievement in missing the point, I'm left with no choice but to conclude that you're full of shit.
Originally posted by Rookwood
My patience with you is infinite.And yes, you certainly are an utmost expert on this particular subject - which is what makes this debate so special and fascinating.
It's like two masters of Chess, going at it, against each other.
Thanks for the compliment.
Originally posted by Rookwood
But we know the Exile's nature is different.She cut herself off from the deafening destruction and death in the Force - as a means of defense and coping with the trauma she felt within those echoes.
With Nihilus - he became a literal manifestation of those echoes of death - a Wound, that sought to devour the Force around him - using the Force itself, to do so.
The fact that they are described using identical language suggests that they are not different in terms of nature at all. Both of them utilise the same technique and are Force Wounds. The only difference is that the Exile turned away from the Force out of fear and never felt a need to return to it, whereas Nihilus gave in to the hunger he felt through his new emptiness and devoured those around him.
Originally posted by Rookwood
- If this were true - it would make Nihilus's survival of this cataclysmic event all the more impressive.Staggering; considering the amount of Force needed to protect a human flesh and blood body from such monstrously destructive energies.
No. Not at all. There were numerous other survivors.
Originally posted by Rookwood
The development of a technique to radical heights, was the Drain - not telekinesis.And if what you said earlier about him tanking the destruction in a human body is true, then it makes sense that he would also be strong enough to wrest a warship from the orbit of the planet.
You miss my point. Nihilus only hauled the Ravager off of Malachor after he had drained the Force from numerous beings and after his time at Trayas Academy. Before then he was empty of the Force and thus could not have pulled ships from orbit with it.
No it doesn't. You are seriously off-base with assuming that Nihilus needed to have shielded himself with the Force to survive Malachor's destruction. Numerous other people survived, as did 'thousands of ships' that were 'dragged to the surface' and Trayas Academy. The evidence suggests that he survived the destruction without using the Force, just as they did.
Originally posted by Rookwood
Correct. 🙂
I know I am but are you!
Originally posted by Rookwood
Well correct - the Gravity-Well is located around the planet, and when the quote says it was hauled "from" - that means the ship was taken from the gravatic field around the planet and brought down to the surface, where he was.Like, if you were to reach out and take something from my hand - I would standing outside of your center, and you would be taking an object and moving it back to you.
As I said, the gravity-well extends to the planets surface. If nihilus merely pulled it to the surface, it would still be inside the gravity well, merely at the bottom of it. The only way to go 'from' a gravity well is to go outside of the planets gravitational field, into space. Either way, as I said, the Campaign Guide makes it clear that Nihilus 'raised the Ravager from the ruined surface of Malachor V'.
Originally posted by Rookwood
But that's sort of the problem - there are a dozen or more websites on the internet that all say the same thing, and then there is one person who says differently.My respect for your knowledge and viewpoints is not in question - but the contrast in numbers here is significant, and it does render your view as the minority.
I'm sure we are not unique in wanting to procure information from official sources, and those numerous websites all sought the same thing. And it is from those other numerous sources, all corresponding with each other, that state those things.
Don't care. If these websites have evidence then go find it. Otherwise I just don't care.
Originally posted by Rookwood
I actually share that sentiment - trust me.But the location itself did absorb the echoes of death and destruction and did become a place of power in the Dark side of the Force, so I suppose their implication is not surprising.
Where is the evidence that it did this? Because unless you can show me some I will not accept this foolishness.
It doesn't? Since when? Kreia could be being metaphorical bear in mind. We see the effects of the technique and it specifically drains the target completely of the Force. It does not merely sever them from the Force:'As much as one may use the Force to bolster the wills and strengths of others, the reverse is possible, though not often used. Instead of sending one's will through connections in the Force, instead such connections are drawn upon, fed upon, and drained completely.'
However, drain and Force severing are different things. Wall of light was severing from the Force. Lumya and Jacen demonstrated severing from the Force on others. Are you saying they were using weaker version of Force drain? 0_o
And again, she said "feeding on death". That's too specific to be dismissed as metaphora because Force drain is all about feeding on Force of alive victim, not on his death.
But did not drain herself. And the Exile is a special case, which is why Kreia is so in her grill.
The technique does not need to be done to the degree that it kills. It's ambiguous about the extent of the damage done to Kreia buts its my belief that she was not completely drained, which is why the Exile reawakens her connection to the Force only after establishing a bond with her.
Nihilus wasn't even consciously affecting them. It proves nothing.
And a rumor must be untrue?
She sees through the Force. If anything her account would be more reliable than a humans. Besides which, just because the narration is from her perspective doesn't mean the accompanying pictures are.
Images reveal that buildings collaps and surface is being ravaged, while Force drain doesn't have destructive power, it is not a Force Storm. If you think otherwise, then how on earth Exile would be able to resist such destructive power in close vicinity, when it was capable of obliterating entire planet from kilometers distance??? Things simply don't add up.
Except we see Nihilus and Kreia use the technique and witness the effects of it.
No, what we can conclude is that you are a buffoon.
This proves nothing. Recall that the Exile and Kreia have a Force Bond. Kreia could simply be utilising the Force Bond to sap the Exiles vitality:As much as one may use the Force to bolster the wills and strengths of others, the reverse is possible, though not often used. Instead of sending one's will through connections in the Force, instead such connections are drawn upon, fed upon, and drained
completely.'
What you mean vitality? Is there some other energy other than Force that I am not aware of? Force bond or not she could get Force drained.
And you already used this quote above to support Nihilus' drain and now you bring the same thing to support your Force bond assumption? Make up your mind.
Moreover, this quote is applied to everyone because Force bond is not needed to empower others or drain.
Originally posted by Arhael
Indeed, she could be metaphorical. And this quote you posted suits Force drain description.However, drain and Force severing are different things. Wall of light was severing from the Force. Lumya and Jacen demonstrated severing from the Force on others. Are you saying they were using weaker version of Force drain? 0_o
And again, she said "feeding on death". That's too specific to be dismissed as metaphora because Force drain is all about feeding on Force of alive victim, not on his death.
Yet her other quote suits severance also: 'It is a means of severing connections between life, the Force, and feeding upon the death it causes.'
No, they are different techniques altogether. Nihilus' technique involves forming a bond with people and then either dominating them and leeching their life or severing their connection completely and feeding on them.
Alive or dead, people are still connected to the Force. Remember what Yoda said, the Force is intrinsically connected with life itself. That is why severing something from it so completely that it leaves an absense in the Force causes death. And thats where the metaphor comes from. Its like if you say someones 'feeding on their suffering', they are not literally doing so, the term means that they are profiting from it in some way.
Originally posted by Arhael
You just drew line yourself between severing and drain.
Lol. Whoops. I take it back. The real reason the Exile survived is simply because she just did. Unlike the Jedi Masters she could handle that degree of separation from the Force. This is why Kreia is so obsessed with her.
Note that Kreia implies that surviving that level of severance is a unique occurrence.
Originally posted by Arhael
It is, also, unknown, if it was Force drain that severed Kreia, unless you have a quote from any source to prove it. Remember, in game Nihilus Force blasts her and then Sion procedes to raping her, no visual of Force drain. Also, why drain would Force sever connection to the Force? If Force user becomes exhausted, he just needs some recovery time.
'She teaches the newly christened Darth Nihilus to harness his life-draining gift to radical heights -- so effectively, in fact, that Nihilus saps Traya's powers in a calculated double cross.' Her powers were sapped, but in the cutscene she still managed to make her lightsaber wobble, hence my belief that she was not completely drained.
Also What. The. Fvck? Sion doesn't 'rape' her. He beats her up, he doesn't rape her. Jesus Christ.
Originally posted by Arhael
It is result of Force drain, not severing.
A mere drain would not create such an absence. The Force is a universal energy field. Draining someone would just have you fill up again in time. Only such complete severance would cause a wound in the Force, as is described in game:
Originally posted by Arhael
It proves that he feeds on life energy, not on death his technique causes as claimed by Kreia. It is clear contradiction.
Life = the Force. Severing and drain someone of the Force = death. Feeding on the Force equals feeding on death.
'As much as one may use the Force to bolster the wills and strengths of others, the reverse is possible, though not often used. Instead of sending one's will through connections in the Force, instead such connections are drawn upon, fed upon, and drained completely.'
'But all life is connected to the Force.'
'Then you understand how terrible such a power is. And why it must be ended.'
Originally posted by Arhael
Considering that there are multiple source books with this event and none confirms that it was his Force technique obliterating the planet, yes. It's not a hard task to describe what happened. So far the best description is "blasted into ruin" and "obliterated". Neither implies some uber Force technique.
And yet when you ask Visas how he destroyed Katarr she specifically says 'It was not a thing done by machines or weapons. The Force is far more terrible and it touches many more lives than any machine could hope to slay.' When you ask Kreia how Nihilus destroyed Katarr she talks about his technique and elaborates on it. In Unseen, Unheard Visas says that Katarr died when Nihilus 'spoke' and we see that it was the result of a Force power, not from being bombed. The Kotor CG says that Nihilus has the power to 'devour worlds', not bomb them and feed off of their death. Your point is utterly without merit and hats why no-one who has actually played the game believes a word you're saying.
Originally posted by Arhael
She sees life and death through Force. All she could feel at that point is millions of deaths. Similarly Kenobi felt destruction of Alderaan, yet, he was clueless what exactly happened.
Kenobi merely sensed it, Visas' species has an actual Force power that lets them see through the Force instead of eyesight.So your point about her being blind is incorrect.
Originally posted by Arhael
Images reveal that buildings collapse and surface is being ravaged, while Force drain doesn't have destructive power, it is not a Force Storm. If you think otherwise, then how on earth Exile would be able to resist such destructive power in close vicinity, when it was capable of obliterating entire planet from kilometers distance??? Things simply don't add up.
The technique is different from a mere Force Drain. The fact is that we see his technique destroy buildings and its described as being able to blast worlds to ruin.
Originally posted by Arhael
Except they demonstrated targeted attack on Force users without any destructive power like in case with Katarr.
Yawn. Keep denying whats obvious to everyone else. Maybe that's why I called you a buffoon.
Originally posted by Arhael
You simply dismissed proof with assumption.What you mean vitality? Is there some other energy other than Force that I am not aware of? Force bond or not she could get Force drained.
And you already used this quote above to support Nihilus' drain and now you bring the same thing to support your Force bond assumption? Make up your mind.
Moreover, this quote is applied to everyone because Force bond is not needed to empower others or drain.
No, I simply pointed out that they way you are interpreting her actions are not the only way that they can be interpreted.
The technique drains people through Forming Force bonds and draining teh target through the Force bond. It is supported by both Kreia and the Jedi Masters interdependently from each other:
Originally posted by Nephthys
I did not attempt to support my argument with popular opinion, so that does not apply.
That's exactly what you did, though. 😬
You attempted to undermine your adversary's argument by exposing its variance from popular opinion. That's a textbook argument by consensus.
You, sir, are a hypocrite and a liar and a generally unpleasant person with a tiny penis. uhuh
Originally posted by Nephthys
Thats merely a taunt, it is not an actual point. But please, your attempts to trip me up are positively adorable.
I didn't say it was an actual point, you tend not to have those. Leave the condescension to me and my ilk (your betters), child. You are a rank amateur in comparison. excellent