Nihilus (right after Katarr) Vs. Vitiate (right after Nathema)

Originally posted by Nephthys
Lol. Legend, it was 2 pages ago:

What Kriea and Nihilus have demonstrated are examples of Force Drain in action.

As an example:

This datacron holds unheard of power and knowledge collected by an ancient race. You access its power and discover writings which are clearly only one small piece of a massive galactic history: Dark times had come to the Republic. Reconstruction from the Jedi Civil War was still ongoing, and the Jedi Order’s numbers were dwindling. Worse, many Jedi sensed a new Sith threat emerging but could not pinpoint the source. Finally, the Jedi Council called a conclave on the Miraluka colony of Katarr. The order’s Masters, including the legendary Vandar Tokare, gathered to discuss the possibility that the Sith had returned. They did not know that Darth Nihilus, a being of pure hunger and dark side power, was approaching the colony. Drawn to the assembled Masters, Nihilus devoured the life energy of everything on Katarr. Millions of Miraluka died, along with most of the Jedi Order’s senior members. Walking Katarr’s lifeless surface later, Darth Nihilus came across the only survivor: the traumatized Miraluka Visas Marr, whom Nihilus took as his apprentice. (Star Wars The Old Republic Codex Entry)

Fact is that KoTOR II offers a complicated description of Force Drain technique; either the developers themselves were struggling to define the technique or characters offered philosophical explanations.

Ancient Sith Lords were pioneers of Force Drain technique like many other techniques and Vitiate had natural affinity with it. He put this talent to maximum effect in his super ritual that destroyed Mediraas and left it as a void in the Force. More interestingly, every other being died in the planet except him so he must have done homework on defensive possibilites against this technique and immorality was the probable solution.

Nihilus's attack didn't left Katarr as a void in the Force, if I recall correctly. He consumed the life energies of living beings on Katarr though Visas Marr survived.

It is also possible that Nihilus performed a ritual-oriented attack on Katarr since his attack destroyed infrastructure as well.

Originally posted by Rookwood
He drains the Force from beings; eating it. 😎

Essence is Force Ghost or Spirit. And Force Drain does not works on spirits/ghosts, if I recall correctly.

Force is everywhere in the Galaxy; Nihilus could feed on it indefinitely but he couldn't. Nihilus could feed only on life energies of living beings.

Originally posted by Rookwood
😆

Originally posted by Rookwood
Of course not - it's not Darth Nihilus. 😉

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
But Vitiate is immortal; this is the best possible counter.

And the bodies he inhabits, aren't - which means Nihilus can consume his essence - this same essence that requires a container to live - and Nihilus absorbs that Force essence, which occupies the bodies of the living.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD

Essence is Force Ghost or Spirit. And Force Drain does not works on spirits/ghosts, if I recall correctly.
Force is everywhere in the Galaxy; Nihilus could feed on it indefinitely but he couldn't. Nihilus could feed only on life energies of living beings.

Nihilus feeds on life within the Force, Nihilus feeds on death and destruction within the Force; he even feeds on the essence of Dark side Nexus's, as exemplified, when he sought to feed upon the energy in Freedon Nadd's tomb.

Nihilus eats Force essence, period.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD

No, it clarifies an important issue.

This does nothing to serve, but remind me of a hiatus I took, when debating an important adversary - someone who is a greater Debator, even more so than you.

I took great pleasure in the happiness he felt while debating me, and not wanting to spoil his momentary happiness, I took a hiatus from this discussion.

Now I will finish my debate with him.

And now and I was reminded of it again. 😄

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD

Irrelevant. Their is not a single example of Force Drain consuming a Force Ghost or Spirit.

Nihilus feeds on the Force essence of others - period.

"Even if the people below are not Force Sensitive, the small amount he can feed on from the mass destruction of the station... and the life on the planet... will sustain him a while longer." - Visas Marr

Nihilus can feed on the Essence of others after they've been killed through other means - meaning that even if they don't have a body left (post-explosion, etc) Nihilus can still take their Essence.

If Vitiate's spirit is made of Force essence, he's screwed.

- If it's not made of Force essence, then you've got a good chance for a rebuttal. 😄

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
...

Vitiate's spirit is not made of Force essence, so Nihilus cannot do anything to him.

Oh, it's not made of Force essence now? 😛

Keep in mind that the only thing in Canon that grants immunity against his Drain, is being a Force Wound.

If Vitiate is a Force Wound, he's fine - if not, he's screwed.

Originally posted by Rookwood
And the bodies he inhabits, aren't - which means Nihilus can consume his essence - this same essence that requires a container to live - and Nihilus absorbs that Force essence, which occupies the bodies of the living.

"Essence transfer is the secret of eternal life. The physical body will always weaken and fail, yet it is nothing but a shell or vessel. When it is time, it is possible to transfer your consciousness—your spirit—into a new vessel…" (Darth Andeddu)

Essence is not biological in nature and it does not needs a biological body to exist. It is a spirit.

Nihilus consumes life energies of living beings; nothing else. This is exactly what Force Drain is designed to do.

I have pointed out earlier that Force exists everywhere. If Darth Nihilus could eat the Force itself, he wouldn't need to drain Force-sensitives. However, this isn't the case. You are confused.

Originally posted by Rookwood
Nihilus feeds on life within the Force, Nihilus feeds on death and destruction within the Force; he even feeds on the essence of Dark side Nexus's, as exemplified, when he sought to feed upon the energy in Freedon Nadd's tomb.

Nihilus eats Force essence, period.

This does nothing to serve, but remind me of a hiatus I took, when debating an important adversary - someone who is a greater Debator, even more so than you.

I took great pleasure in the happiness he felt while debating me, and not wanting to spoil his momentary happiness, I took a hiatus from this discussion.

Now I will finish my debate with him.

And now and I was reminded of it again. 😄

Nihilus feeds on the Force essence of others - period.

"Even if the people below are not Force Sensitive, the small amount he can feed on from the mass destruction of the station... and the life on the planet... will sustain him a while longer." - Visas Marr

Nihilus can feed on the Essence of others after they've been killed through other means - meaning that even if they don't have a body left (post-explosion, etc) Nihilus can still take their Essence.

If Vitiate's spirit is made of Force essence, he's screwed.

- If it's not made of Force essence, then you've got a good chance for a rebuttal. 😄

Oh, it's not made of Force essence now? 😛

Keep in mind that the only thing in Canon that grants immunity against his Drain, is being a Force Wound.

If Vitiate is a Force Wound, he's fine - if not, he's screwed.

BioWare have solved the problem:

Through their focus on these elements of the Force, the Sith have developed terrifying powers, such as the ability to drain a being of its life force, or unleash their hatred as crackling bolts of energy. The Sith Emperor, history's most powerful dark side master, performed a ritual of incredible scope to consume the life energy of every being on his homeworld. (Star Wars The Old Republic Encyclopedia)

And how do you think that Sith Emperor survived in such a ritual? Through secrets of immortality which was his objective. Just because Darth Traya thinks that their are techniques against which no form of defence exists, doesn't makes it so. Sith Emperor was relatively far more knowlegeable and his command of the dark side much greater. Darth Traya apparently didn't even knew much about the Sith Emperor and his accomplishments; she was clueless in this regard. She certainly discovered the being a wound in the Force is one way to render Force Drain attacks ineffective. However, it can be argued that Revan also knew some form of defence against Force Drain as Darth Malak also learned this technique and utilized it aboard Star Forge.

Read this now:

This datacron holds unheard of power and knowledge collected by an ancient race. You access its power and discover writings which are clearly only one small piece of a massive galactic history: Dark times had come to the Republic. Reconstruction from the Jedi Civil War was still ongoing, and the Jedi Order’s numbers were dwindling. Worse, many Jedi sensed a new Sith threat emerging but could not pinpoint the source. Finally, the Jedi Council called a conclave on the Miraluka colony of Katarr. The order’s Masters, including the legendary Vandar Tokare, gathered to discuss the possibility that the Sith had returned. They did not know that Darth Nihilus, a being of pure hunger and dark side power, was approaching the colony. Drawn to the assembled Masters, Nihilus devoured the life energy of everything on Katarr. Millions of Miraluka died, along with most of the Jedi Order’s senior members. Walking Katarr’s lifeless surface later, Darth Nihilus came across the only survivor: the traumatized Miraluka Visas Marr, whom Nihilus took as his apprentice. (Star Wars The Old Republic Codex Entry)

It is Force Drain; but people mistake it for something else by relying on complicated explanations offered in KoTOR II. I now understand that why Lucas Arts chose BioWare over Obsidian for SWTOR project.

Here is another interesting revelation:

Led by a woman named Kreia, the rogue Jedi turned to the dark side teachings uncovered by Malak and Revan. Kreia took the name Darth Traya, and her followers called themselves the Sith after the long-lost species that had invaded the Republic a millennium before. They began a systemic purge of the galaxy, hunting down those who still held fast to the Jedi Code, killing them by the tens of thousands. Their relentless pursuit virtually wiped out the Order, and only those few who managed to flee or hide survived.

Had Revan returned to face this new threat, Bastila would have eagerly fought by his side. Together they might have been able to quell the uprising, ending it before the horrors of war enveloped the Republic and millions lost their lives. But she had heard nothing of her husband since he had set off with Canderous four years earlier. (Star Wars The Old Republic Revan)

(EDITED ON REQUEST)

And the bodies he inhabits, aren't - which means Nihilus can consume his essence - this same essence that requires a container to live - and Nihilus absorbs that Force essence, which occupies the bodies of the living.

Originally posted by steveholt951
You DO realize that Vitiate's own body was immortal, right?

You do realize, it wasn't, right? 😆

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Nihilus consumes life energies of living beings; nothing else. This is exactly what Force Drain is designed to do.

Rookwood

Nihilus feeds on life within the Force, Nihilus feeds on death and destruction within the Force; he even feeds on the essence of Dark side Nexus's, as exemplified, when he sought to feed upon the energy in Freedon Nadd's tomb.

Nihilus eats Force essence, period.

Originally posted by Rook Wood

Nihilus feeds on the Force essence of others - period.

"Even if the people below are not Force Sensitive, the small amount he can feed on from the mass destruction of the station... and the life on the planet... will sustain him a while longer." - Visas Marr

Nihilus can feed on the Essence of others after they've been killed through other means - meaning that even if they don't have a body left (post-explosion, etc) Nihilus can still take their Essence.

If Vitiate's spirit is made of Force essence, he's screwed.

- If it's not made of Force essence, then you've got a good chance for a rebuttal. 😄

[/B][/QUOTE]

And since Vitiate isn't a Force Wound, he's screwed. 😄

Originally posted by Rookwood

And since Vitiate isn't a Force Wound, he's screwed. 😄

You need to focus deeper in this subject to get a better understanding of potential pros and cons of Force Drain technique.

Every living being is touched by the Force in Star Wars mythos. Force itself exists everywhere. It is just that Force sensitives can call upon it to aid them in their actions.

Force Drain technique permits its wielder to disrupt/destroy the connection of a being with the Force. If this happens, the victim is most likely to end up dead.

The purpose of Force Drain is to drain a being of its life force. What the technique actually does is that it drains the targeted being of its life energy but it allows the wielder of the technique to consume that life energy (the feeding part).

However, their are methods to counter Force Drain; one method has been promoted in KoTOR II which is through being a wound in the Force. Another method has been promoted in TOR which is immortality. And their is also a possibility that Revan invented a method to deal with this kind of threat. If Kriea thinks otherwise then this is an indication of her knowledge being limited. What she said is not necessarily going to be endorsed in the Star Wars mythos as a whole. This you need to understand.

Malak, Kriea and Nihilus have demonstrated/utilized Force Drain techniques. Whatever philosophical explanations have been offered by Obsidian; have been simplified by Bioware for the audience.

Originally posted by Rookwood
You do realize, it wasn't, right? 😆

Wonderful rebuttal to a factual statement. I can't imagine why you're still lacking the ability to form a cogent argument. 😂 😂

Originally posted by steveholt951
Wonderful rebuttal to a factual statement. I can't imagine why you're still lacking the ability to form a cogent argument. 😂 😂

If his true body were actually immortal, it wouldn't have to be guarded.

Irrelevant in this situation anyway, as Nihilus could still eat the Force presence in Vitiate's body anyway, stripping it of the life-giving Force that would power it's very immortality, killing him anyway.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Bro, you just dodged my points and reasoning. I don't appreciate this.

Bro, that's because you're trying to push points, without understanding how Nihilus' Drain actually works.

I already pointed out that he consumes life within the Force; he consumes death and destruction within the Force; he can consume peoples' Force Essence even after their physical body no longer exists (per Visas) and he can consume dark Force Nexus' - like that in Freedon Nadd's Tomb

And Kreia has stated, and has it hasn't been retconned thus far, the only immunity to Nihilus' Drain, is the condition of being a Force Wound - which Vitiate isn't.

He dies, whether you like it or not; understand it or not. He's done here.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
The purpose of Force Drain is to drain a being of its life force. This attack can result in death of the targeted individual. What the technique actually does is that it drains the targeted being of its life energy but it allows the wielder of the technique to consume that life energy (the feeding part).

What Kriea and Nihilus have demonstrated are examples of Force Drain in action.

As an example:

This datacron holds unheard of power and knowledge collected by an ancient race. You access its power and discover writings which are clearly only one small piece of a massive galactic history: Dark times had come to the Republic. Reconstruction from the Jedi Civil War was still ongoing, and the Jedi Order’s numbers were dwindling. Worse, many Jedi sensed a new Sith threat emerging but could not pinpoint the source. Finally, the Jedi Council called a conclave on the Miraluka colony of Katarr. The order’s Masters, including the legendary Vandar Tokare, gathered to discuss the possibility that the Sith had returned. They did not know that Darth Nihilus, a being of pure hunger and dark side power, was approaching the colony. Drawn to the assembled Masters, Nihilus devoured the life energy of everything on Katarr. Millions of Miraluka died, along with most of the Jedi Order’s senior members. Walking Katarr’s lifeless surface later, Darth Nihilus came across the only survivor: the traumatized Miraluka Visas Marr, whom Nihilus took as his apprentice. (Star Wars The Old Republic Codex Entry)

Fact is that KoTOR II offers a complicated description of Force Drain technique; either the developers themselves were struggling to define the technique or characters offered philosophical explanations.

Ancient Sith Lords were pioneers of Force Drain technique like many other techniques and Vitiate had natural affinity with it. He put this talent to maximum effect in his super ritual that destroyed Mediraas and left it as a void in the Force. More interestingly, every other being died in the planet except him so he must have done homework on defensive possibilites against this technique and immorality was the probable solution.

Nihilus's attack didn't left Katarr as a void in the Force, if I recall correctly. He consumed the life energies of living beings on Katarr though Visas Marr survived.

It is also possible that Nihilus performed a ritual-oriented attack on Katarr since his attack destroyed infrastructure as well.

Um, cool story bro, but I was just responding to point out that Nihilus and Kreia's technique totally leaves a void in the Force.

Anyway, no the purpose of Force Drain is to drain a being of their Force reserves. Point in fact, you can actually learn Drain Force in the game. Check out its description:

You can also learn a separate technique called Drain Life:

What Kreia and Nihilus do is similar to both at the same time, yet different. It severs a being from the Force and feeding on their life/death:

'It is a technique that is almost as old as the Sith themselves... it is a means of severing connections between life, the Force, and feeding upon the death it causes.'

While consuming the Force itself to create a wound in the Force:

' As much as one may use the Force to bolster the wills and strengths of others, the reverse is possible, though not often used. Instead of sending one's will through connections in the Force, instead such connections are drawn upon, fed upon, and drained completely.'

I'm pretty sure Nihilus' attack on Katarr did leave a Wound in the Force. Visas specifically mentions when you talk to her about what he did she says:

'It.... was like I was blinded. It was as if the Force had.... been bled from the world.'

The Exile can then draw a direct link to what happened at Malachor. Visas then says that Nihilus made her see Katarr as 'my world, absent of the currents and spectrums of the Force, was nothing but crude matter, rock, flesh, emptiness.'

So yeah, its not really arguable that Katarr became a Force Wound.

That is some good information, Neph. 🙂

However, we have also seen that Vitiate survived unscathed in a (arguably) more dire setting then that of Katarr at the time of its destruction; Vitiate emerged immortal from this event. On this basis, I am debating that immortality is perhaps another counter to these kinds of techniques. Traya is apparently ignorant about this.

The notion which I find absurd is that immortality is some kind of chum that can be swept under the rug with conventional techniques. This isn't the case in the mythos actually.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
That is some good information, Neph. 🙂

However, we have also seen that Vitiate survived unscathed in an arguably even more dire circumstances in his homeworld. Vitiate emerged immortal from this event. On this basis, I am debating that immortality is perhaps another counter to these kinds of techniques.

Cool, that's good enough to use in a Fanfic.

Can I borrow the concept? 😄

Originally posted by steveholt951
Wonderful rebuttal to a factual statement. I can't imagine why you're still lacking the ability to form a cogent argument. 😂 😂

Really? That's your reasoning? LOL. Just concede

Are you talking to yourself? 😆

Just concede

Originally posted by steveholt951
The child is having difficulty understanding. 🙁

You are? 😆

TOR is not an authority of KotOR II,just as Luceno isnt on Vitiate.

Nothing about Force drain or life drain includes Nihilus' Hunger. Just Meetra said the Jedi were lifeless and an absence in the Force(yet nowhere suggests Void in the Force)

Originally posted by The_Tempest
According to Unseen, Unheard he did it either in an hour or with a single word. Or both.

Perhaps it was a really long word? mmm

I don't think it makes sense the whole process would take an hour, because that would be some of them would die in 10 minutes, some 30, some 45 as the cloud solely spread over the planet. You'd also think an hour would give the Jedi time to escape, or reinforcements to arrive.

EDIT: Ugh, necro, oh well.