Originally posted by Zampanó
Your word quilt is filled with bullshitRayBlax, so I'm just going to address the overall principle.In each of the du[b]e
ls that you mention, there has been a significant mismatch in ability to use the Force as either a weapon or a buff. You're throwing around a loss to the chosen one as though Johun has schooled someone.In a battle between equals in the Force, technique is the deciding factor. [/B]
Originally posted by Tzeentch._
You're trying to dance around what I've asked several times in this thread, and I'm not havin it. So I'm going to say it again. Prove that the reason why Anakin defeated Drallig, despite the fact that Anakin was a master of only one style, whereas Drallig was a master of several, was due to the fact that Anakin had a stronger connection to the force, as opposed to him simply being a more skilled duelist.
Originally posted by Nephthys"borrowing elements from different styles" isn't the same thing as having a mastery of multiple styles, however. Most Jedi put most of their focus on one style, and add little elements that they like from other styles into the mix. Obi-Wan, for example, tossed some ataru into the mix.
Anakin is more than a master of just one form. A few weeks after RotS in Rise of Darth Vader he's already cobbled together a style of combat suited to his new state: 'His style borrowed elements from all techniques of combat, even from the highest, most dangerous levels, and his moves were crisp and unpredictable.'Fightsaber also says that as Vader he developed a refined version of Djem So that included Ataru and Soresu elements, but also added Makashi and Juyo. The latter means that he had to be a master of these multiple forms.
Anakin was a fantastic lightsaber duelist. He shouldn't be underestimated.
Anakin was a master of only one style- Drallig was literally a master of far more.
Originally posted by Nephthys
Anakin is more than a master of just one form. A few weeks after RotS in Rise of Darth Vader he's already cobbled together a style of combat suited to his new state: 'His style borrowed elements from all techniques of combat, even from the highest, most dangerous levels, and his moves were crisp and unpredictable.'Fightsaber also says that as Vader he developed a refined version of Djem So that included Ataru and Soresu elements, but also added Makashi and Juyo. The latter means that he had to be a master of these multiple forms.
Anakin was a fantastic lightsaber duelist. He shouldn't be underestimated.
👆
And he was Kenobi's equal in skill:
"Blade for blade they were identical"
Originally posted by Nephthys
The quote mentions 'the highest, most dangerous levels', which clearly indicate Juyo. Which requires one to be a master of multiple forms.
One has to be a master of multiple forms to "achieve and control" Juyo. Borrowing elements, maneuvers, or sequences from a form doesn't equate to mastery of the form itself. Dooku informs Grievous in Labyrinth of Evil that he can replicate attacks from various Jedi Masters—Windu among them, but Dooku is not known to have mastered Juyo or Vaapad.
Anakin/Vader is clearly familiar and perhaps even proficient in multiple forms due to a prodigious aptitude for such things that outstrips Bane and rivals his son. But mastery is not indicated here.
Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
I say again.. just as Mace said... It's better to be the master of one form.. then multiple forms or the creator of a form.. To me Kenobi being the undisputed best at his form is better than being good at many forms...
Bro I think you seriosuly underestimate what it means to master a form (and Kas'im is not just a maste,r he is a high level master of them) it doesnt just mean you're good at them it makes you an expert at them.
To many Jedis just mastering just a single form can take decades of time. You shouldn't dismiss Kas'im being a high level master of all of them. He is the only one we know of who is.
Originally posted by The_Tempest
One has to be a master of multiple forms to "achieve and control" Juyo. Borrowing elements, maneuvers, or sequences from a form doesn't equate to mastery of the form itself. Dooku informs Grievous in Labyrinth of Evil that he can replicate attacks from various Jedi Masters—Windu among them, but Dooku is not known to have mastered Juyo or Vaapad.Anakin/Vader is clearly familiar and perhaps even proficient in multiple forms due to a prodigious aptitude for such things that outstrips Bane and rivals his son. But mastery is not indicated here.
I disagree. If you have such familiarity of the form that you can incorporate elements of it into a custom style with other forms then that at the very least indicates that you can achieve and control the form, but more likely indicates a high degree of familiarity. Knowledge of how a sequence would fit best into the overall style, which form to use in which situation, these things require you to be knowledgable on the form in question. Lightsaber combat isn't arts a crafts, you can't cut and paste elements from different forms together without expertise because of the intrinsic complexity of the art itself. When Bane started to do the same in his training with Kas'im, the latter claimed that he had no more to teach him. Dooku being able to copy some of Windu's moves is a far cry from using them in the heat of battle. Unless you have a good grasp of the form, it would be sheer insanity to attempt to pull off that in a fight and Vaders moves are noted for being crisp. That Vader achieves this and that he incorporates moves from Juyo does not seem to be a coincidence to me. He can effectively use Juyo because he is a master of multiple forms, as evidenced by him utilising them in his unique style. Its logical.
Gotta disagree with you on this one Nepthys it as Tempest said. Mastering a style means that you have expert level of control over that style, meaning you know all the basics, all the fundamentals, the vast majority of the different techniques, and you can perform them with near perfect form. Anakin might just be taking some of the techniques he might know from one style, but it does not make him a master.
Plus we don't want to start giving the fanboys too much ammunition if Anakin is that amazing they will use Obi-Wans victory over him against us.
When he beated Bane by using his high level mastery of all forms. Much better feat than beating newbs like Opress who Bane would destroy.
Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Can I see the narration that talks about him being the only one who's been a HIGH MASTER OF ALL FORMS.. When was this stated to be true. When did he show any of the hyperbole about him to be true in ACTUAL COMBAT?
Originally posted by Nephthys
I disagree. If you have such familiarity of the form that you can incorporate elements of it into a custom style with other forms then that at the very least indicates that you can achieve and control the form, but more likely indicates a high degree of familiarity.
Me, this very same page
Anakin/Vader is clearly familiar and perhaps even proficient in multiple forms
Originally posted by Nephthys
Knowledge of how a sequence would fit best into the overall style, which form to use in which situation, these things require you to be knowledgable on the form in question.
Me, this very same page
Anakin/Vader is clearly familiar and perhaps even proficient in multiple forms
Originally posted by Nephthys
Lightsaber combat isn't arts a crafts, you can't cut and paste elements from different forms together without expertise because of the intrinsic complexity of the art itself.
That's exactly how it's treated by most authors.
That aside, I can borrow elements of jiu-jitsu, Taekwondo, and karate and make use of various maneuvers, sequences, techniques in a fight without having mastered all or any of them.
Originally posted by Nephthys
When Bane started to do the same in his training with Kas'im, the latter claimed that he had no more to teach him. Dooku being able to copy some of Windu's moves is a far cry from using them in the heat of battle.
But that's exactly the context in which the good Count reveals to Grievous that he can demonstrate such things from Council members, including Mace Windu.
Originally posted by Nephthys
Unless you have a good grasp of the form, it would be sheer insanity to attempt to pull off that in a fight and Vaders moves are noted for being crisp. That Vader achieves this and that he incorporates moves from Juyo does not seem to be a coincidence to me. He can effectively use Juyo because he is a master of multiple forms, as evidenced by him utilising them in his unique style. Its logical.
That's cool.
It also doesn't refute a single word I said: I already explained to you that Vader is "logically" familiar and arguably proficient with multiple forms. It was you who conferred upon him mastery, which is not an equitable degree of refinement.
Originally posted by The_Tempest
🙄
I was specifically talking about Juyo, arguing that he's demonstrated enough to 'achieve and control' Juyo, which would mean that he's a high-end master of multiple forms by default. I know you said he could be proficient in them, I was arguing that he had mastery in them.
Originally posted by The_Tempest
That's exactly how it's treated by most authors.That aside, I can borrow elements of jiu-jitsu, Taekwondo, and karate and make use of various maneuvers, sequences, techniques in a fight without having mastered all or any of them.
No it isn't.
Of course you can. I'm a blackbelt in 6 martial arts too. My internet tough-guyness is superior to yours.
Plus lightsaber combat is infinitely more dangerous and faster-paced than a fist-fight.
Originally posted by The_Tempest
But that's exactly the context in which the good Count reveals to Grievous that he can demonstrate such things from Council members, including Mace Windu.
What does he actually say? 'Demonstrating' something is a far cry from using it in battle.
Originally posted by The_Tempest
That's cool.It also doesn't refute a single word I said: I already explained to you that Vader is "logically" familiar and arguably proficient with multiple forms. It was you who conferred upon him mastery, which is not an equitable degree of refinement. [/B]
I conferred on him mastery because he uses Juyo which requires one to be a master in order to use. That he's even received training in Juyo would indicate this. This is a scant few weeks after ROTS, he has not had time to learn parts of Juyo himself so he can incorporate it into his own style, the only way he could have learnt is if he was taught it as Anakin. And to qualify for training.....
Neph's doing that thing where he's arguing about something he has no knowledge of.
"I'm no expert in ____ but I'll make a slew of declarative statements about it anyway".
No, Neph, you don't need to be a master or even highly proficient in a fighting style in order to borrow elements of it. Mixed martial artists do it all the time. It can in fact be as simple as sparring with someone and saying "oh gee, I really liked that maneuver you did a second ago, can you teach me that?" "Kay" /integrates into their own style.
Well done, you even spelled it correctly. Gold star.
Originally posted by Tzeentch._
Neph's doing that thing where he's arguing about something he has no knowledge of."I'm no expert in ____ but I'll make a slew of declarative statements about it anyway".
No, Neph, you don't need to be a master or even highly proficient in a fighting style in order to borrow elements of it. Mixed martial artists do it all the time. It can in fact be as simple as sparring with someone and saying "oh gee, I really liked that maneuver you did a second ago, can you teach me that?" "Kay" /integrates into their own style.
As a rule I tend to disregard anything anyone mentions about martial arts on the internet unless its in an actual martial arts based environment. I'm no martial artist and I'm skeptical of anyone who brags about how awesome their skills are or knowledgeable they are on the topic.
What I do know is lightsaber combat. Specifically that it is very dangerous and that you'll likely die if you don't know what you're doing. It is incomparable to mere martial arts in terms of complexity, if not for the technical aspects then because in karate you are not swinging a tube of plasma around at superspeeds. As I have mentioned, when Bane started to do the same thing that Vader is doing, then Kas'im believes that he has moved beyond Forms and that he has nothing more to teach him. I'm not just pulling this idea out of my ass.
Either way, as I have pointed out, this is a scant few weeks after RotS, and previously Anakin made use of Djem So. There would be no reason for him to learn specific sequences of different forms because at that time he was not using a style that borrowed elements from different forms. And there is no mention of him incorporating elements of different forms into his Djem So before he becomes Darth Vader. All evidence and logic points to him being familiar enough with these different forms so that after his injuries he is able to cobble together a unique style that works with his new physicality. Juyo included.
Originally posted by NephthysI conferred on him mastery because he uses Juyo which requires one to be a master in order to use. That he's even received training in Juyo would indicate this. This is a scant few weeks after ROTS, he has not had time to learn parts of Juyo himself so he can incorporate it into his own style, the only way he could have learnt is if he was taught it as Anakin. And to qualify for training.....
This would seem to be the case as the logic here is sound.
It's just never been specifically stated he's mastered any other form but Djem So. But then again, it was never even stated he mastered Djem So either.
But again that would be the reasonable and logical assumption as he was as fine a user of the form as Dooku had ever seen, and the description of the fight between him and Obi-Wan would suggest Skywalker's level of mastery is on par with Kenobi's who is called "The Master" of Soresu.
Originally posted by Nephthys
[B]What I do know is lightsaber combat. Specifically that it is very dangerous and that you'll likely die if you don't know what you're doing. It is incomparable to mere martial arts in terms of complexity, if not for the technical aspects then because in karate you are not swinging a tube of plasma around at superspeeds.
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Training_lightsaber
All evidence and logic points to him being familiar enough with these different forms so that after his injuries he is able to cobble together a unique style that works with his new physicality. Juyo included.You have no logic and you have no evidence. Your argument thus far is "Anakin incorporated maneuvers from various styles, including juyo, into his fighting style. Juyo requires a high-end mastery of multiple forms to learn, therefore Anakin is a master of multiple forms."
That is a terrible argument, and legitmately it isn't based off of anything factual whatsoever. The only thing keeping the argument from falling apart, the lynchpin, is your belief that in order to borrow maneuvers from a lightsaber style, you have to first have a high-end proficiency with that style- a statement that has zero support from the canon whatsoever, and utterly contradicts, read, every martial art on the planet.