Kas'im vs. Obi-Wan Kenobi

Originally posted by TheOneOfMortis
Ok, hiw about we just ignore Cin Drallig in this discussion? Doesn't hurt my argument. It was KV bringing him up in some attempt to discredit Kas'im. It did not work as he was not able to prove that the situation compeltely applies.

You dont need to send him bro, as he visit every april the 20th, and so does Nick (my birthday).

Considering that, Cin Drallig is very relevant, because he too is a man who knew every form, and yet that didn't stop him from getting casually rocked by Anakin. In fact, as I recall he wasn't even listed as one of the finest duelists in the Order, despite his mastery of the forms.

So nah. Man up and defend yourself, son.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
To me, the deciding factor is kenobi's far superior swrord victories and feats as compared to Kas. You agree it will be decided in saber combat... yet you choose to go against the guy with superior feats and superior wins in this regard... This is the part that doesn't add up and I'd like you to expand on.

Originally posted by Tzeentch._
Well, considering that, literally, the only slightly credible reason for Kas'im beating Obi-Wan that anyone has posted in here thus far is that he's "teh uber duelist" because he, wait for it, is a master of all forms. And that's it. The man has not a single other thing of repute going for him- not even one.

Considering that, Cin Drallig is very relevant, because he too is a man who knew every form, and yet that didn't stop him from getting casually rocked by Anakin. In fact, as I recall he wasn't even listed as one of the finest duelists in the Order, despite his mastery of the forms.

Now, decent argument has been made for Obi-Wan, while the argument brought up to support Kas’im rings hollow. Thus, it follows logically and inescapably that Obi-Wan triumphs over Kas'im/thread

Originally posted by -kV-
I was pointing out the failed logic in Mortis’s post. However, an argument mentioning speed is definitely valid.

For example; in SWTOR Revan novel; Revan's reflexes at one point are pointed out as lightning fast and as instantenous at another.

In addition, different authors interpret speed and reflexes in different manner. Therefore, arguments based solely on these traits would confuse rather then solve the issue.

All Jedi are supposed to have superhuman traits by default. They learn to hone their abilities with proper training. Variation in performance occurs due to multitude of reasons.

Originally posted by -kV-
So what? How is this relevant? Jedi and Sith both have difficult training methods. This doesn’t bolster the combat abilities of the featless Kas’im.

However, if we ssume Kas'im to be a paper tiger; why should we consider Cin Dralling as anything special? The latter shouldn't register either.

Originally posted by -kV-
facepalm

And here you are mentioning speed even though you just wrote above how it’s a “flawed/failed” line of thought. Hypocritical much?

Originally posted by -kV-
And LOL…Bane (this is his perspective) just stated that Kas’im attacked him faster than he did during the practice sessions. Well, NO SH1T SHERLOCK! Kas’im is trying to kill him, not teach him a lesson.

A “loss of words” – are you kidding me? facepalm

Originally posted by -kV-
Already addressed the Sora Bulq argument.

Originally posted by -kV-
I suggest you rewatch Fisto vs. Grievous before you start saying misleading statements.

Originally posted by -kV-
Even better for Kenobi that he’s the greatest practitioner of a form well-suited for lightsaber-to-lightsaber combat. 👆

Originally posted by -kV-
facepalm

Originally posted by axel_jovan
👆

This deserves 2x 👆

Now, decent argument has been made for Obi-Wan, while the argument brought up to support Kas’im rings hollow. Thus, it follows logically and inescapably that Obi-Wan triumphs over Kas'im/thread

Vader killed Cin Drallig. Ok.

Same incarnation of Vader failed against Shaak Ti. What now?

Any insight for this failure?

Shaak Ti is one of the most celebrated swordbeasts in the orders history and was a good fight for freaking Starkiller. She was powerful enough to influence an entire planet through the Force. Perhaps shes just that good.

Originally posted by TheOneOfMortis
Ok, hiw about we just ignore Cin Drallig in this discussion? Doesn't hurt my argument. It was KV bringing him up in some attempt to discredit Kas'im. It did not work as he was not able to prove that the situation compeltely applies.

You dont need to send him bro, as he visit every april the 20th, and so does Nick (my birthday).

Originally posted by Tzeentch._
Well, considering that, literally, the only slightly credible reason for Kas'im beating Obi-Wan that anyone has posted in here thus far is that he's "teh uber duelist" because he, wait for it, is a master of all forms. And that's it. The man has not a single other thing of repute going for him- not even one.

Considering that, Cin Drallig is very relevant, because he too is a man who knew every form, and yet that didn't stop him from getting casually rocked by Anakin. In fact, as I recall he wasn't even listed as one of the finest duelists in the Order, despite his mastery of the forms.

So nah. Man up and defend yourself, son.

In a match with parity in all categories save mastery of the blade, I'll pick the combatant with the most technical skill: Kas'im.

Anakin Sywalker!!!!!!!!!!!

That it was Anakin Skywalker means nothing. Anakin isn't even the best duelist of his generation.

If you want to make the claim that Anakin defeated Drallig by virtue of being stronger in the force, not by virtue of being a superior swordsman, than prove it. Because what the canon shows us is that he didn't demolish him by being a focused, in the zone force-juggernaut, like he was against Dooku; he was casually tooling him with one hand while choking a ***** out with the other, and it's a known fact that during the temple slaughter Anakin was an emotional wreck.

edit- And you aren't picking the man with more technical skill. Mastery of all the forms makes Kas'im more knowledgeable than Kenobi. It does not, by itself, make him the better duelist.

Originally posted by Tzeentch._
Anakin Sywalker!!!!!!!!!!!

That it was Anakin Skywalker means nothing. Anakin isn't even the best duelist of his generation.

If you want to make the claim that Anakin defeated Drallig by virtue of being stronger in the force, not by virtue of being a superior swordsman, than prove it. Because what the canon shows us is that he didn't demolish him by being a focused, in the zone force-juggernaut, like he was against Dooku; he was casually tooling him with one hand while choking a ***** out with the other, and it's a known fact that during the temple slaughter Anakin was an emotional wreck.

edit- And you aren't picking the man with more technical skill. Mastery of all the forms makes Kas'im more knowledgeable than Kenobi. It does not, by itself, make him the better duelist.

Kenobi will not be bullet-timing any of Kas'im's attacks and he will not be wailing on the Magnificent with a pillar; the two are equal (or at relative parity) in everything except knowledge of the blade. That advantage goes to Kas'im, who wins this matchup.

Originally posted by Tzeentch._
Anakin Sywalker!!!!!!!!!!!

That it was Anakin Skywalker means nothing. Anakin isn't even the best duelist of his generation.

Originally posted by Tzeentch._
If you want to make the claim that Anakin defeated Drallig by virtue of being stronger in the force, not by virtue of being a superior swordsman, than prove it. Because what the canon shows us is that he didn't demolish him by being a focused, in the zone force-juggernaut, like he was against Dooku; he was casually tooling him with one hand while choking a ***** out with the other, and it's a known fact that during the temple slaughter Anakin was an emotional wreck.

A duel between two trained Force-wielders isn't pure martial arts in Star Wars. It is not just a contest of blades but a contest of wills and Force based talents. During this situation, if neither opponent enjoys advantage in skills with the lightsaber in technical sense; command of the Force will make difference. A Force-wielder, whose command of the Force is superior, will be able to anticipate the moves of the opponent with better clarity and speed and will gain advantage accordingly.

Cin Dralling, being a blademaster, wouldn't be logically sucky with a blade in technical sense. He would be rather great in this aspect. However, his command of the Force would decide his fate in a duel and not just his technical expertise.

Since Anakin disarmed an opponent as skilled as Count Dooku on the basis of his talents; it doesn't surprises me that he outgunned Cin Dralling.

However, the same guy failed against Shaak Ti; it seems as if his command of the Force was not sufficient in this case.

Originally posted by Tzeentch._
edit- And you aren't picking the man with more technical skill. Mastery of all the forms makes Kas'im more knowledgeable than Kenobi. It does not, by itself, make him the better duelist.

Originally posted by Zampanó
Unacceptable. The basic fact of combat in Star Wars is that Force power plays a huge role in martial ability. Strength and reaction time are both directly related to channeling the Force. Anakin is hugely more powerful than Drallig, and (not-coincidentally) destroys him. The same can be said of Keto during the Ep III dueling game; during the cutscene, he dodges out of the way of an attack mid-strike and then bashes her with the Force.

Kenobi will not be bullet-timing any of Kas'im's attacks and he will not be wailing on the Magnificent with a pillar; the two are equal (or at relative parity) in everything except knowledge of the blade. That advantage goes to Kas'im, who wins this matchup.

Legend: Shut up.

This is especially directed to Zamp, but sorry for not being able to respond today. Been too busy today, but I will respond tomorrow with something!

Tzeenth you keep bringing up how good a duelist they are well here is point to consider. Never mind Kas'im mastering all of the forms. the very fact that he is a high level master of Maskashi, the style tailor made for 10n1 lightsaber duelling, should alone give him a huge advantage over Obi-Wan's Soresu, as Soresu is most effective (in lightsaber srtting) against defending against a barrage of attacks and tiring out the opponent and then waiting for them to leave holes in their defence, it has no real advantage agaiants Makashi's fencing stykle of swordsplay, likewise Makashi is the best duelling form but with a weakness to explosive offensive swordplay, which Soresu is not.

So Makashi alone imo would be a very bad match up for Obi-Wan's Soresu. Then take into account that Kas'im can primarily use a Makashi centered attack against Obi-Wan (of which he is high level master), but then also can employ techniques from the other forms as well that dont themselves pose any weakness to Obi-Wan's Soresu but might be effective depending on the circumstances of the fight at the time, plus the added vsriety will disfragment Obi-Wan's precognition.

So I really don't see why you think Obi-Wan possesses the technical advantage as a dueller.

Then, as Zamp as others have pointed out, Obi-Wan possesses no real advantage in Force power to overcome Kas'im's superior swordplay, if anything he is weaker, hence Kas'im is a lightsaber specialist and he has focused his force powers on things like speed, strength, reflex etc as well as defenceive force use, and he has great credentials in all of these things, he tanked Bane's attack, and as Legend pointed out his speed and stamina etc are always talked veyr highly of even though it can be hard to know exactly how fast etc.

So I really dont see why you think Obi-Wan's average Force prowess and high level mastery of Soresu makes him better than somebody with Kas'im's superior Force prowess, high level mastery of all forms, and hence superior variety, precognition advantage, and ability to tailor his style to expose weaknesses in Obi-Wans and ensure his own possesses no vulnerabilities to it.

And if you want to argue feats, I dont see how Obi-Wan defeating a bunch of newbs like Opress and Assaji Ventress, a non-force powered cyborg like Grievous, a stagnant and crazy sith lord whos skills have atropophied over decades like CW Maul, or what most people like Lucien think is a fluke victory over Anakin (who at the time really hadnt gon very far at all in achiving his potential).

Kas'im defeated Bane using advanages Zamp, I, Legend and others have been talking about, and say what you will but Bane at this stage was a progidy and extremely powerful force user, certainly more impressive than newsb like ventress and opress. He also killed his master when he was younger who was apparently veyr powerful (a sith lord, not a newb like ventress and opress), and had lots of war experience and combat against Jedi prior to working at Academy, where he practised his skills every day.

And just thing, if a newb like me (when it comes to lightsaber forms) can point out ways Kas'im might be able to gain stylistic advantage over Obi-Wan's Soresu, just IMAGINE what Kas'im would be able to do. He would recognise Obi-Wan's Soresu almost immediately, and then its game over. HUZZAH!!

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD

However, the same guy failed against Shaak Ti; it seems as if his command of the Force was not sufficient in this case.

.

What's this failing against Shaak Ti thing that keeps coming up??

Is it a cut scene in the game or something?

IIRC she was present at the attack on the Jedi Temple and fought him but managed to escape.

^ But he was beating her right??

Your word quilt is filled with bullshit Ray, so I'm going to address the core underlying principle, which you and the other Pro-Kas'im individuals keep toting as if it was the gospel.

Mastery of forms does not decide the victor of a dual.

Dooku's "high-level mastery of soresu" didn't give him the win against either Anakin or Yoda, even when he was fighting Yoda on a dark-side nexus that was enhancing all of his powers. Drallig's mastery of all the forms, which obviously means soresu, didn't stop Anakin from curbing him into dust. Grievous knew soresu, and was personally trained by Dooku. Didn't stop Obi-Wan from slaughtering him. Hell, it didn't even stop Kit Fisto from slaughtering him, and Kit's a master of the most basic form.

Superior skill decides the victor of a dual. Mastery over a form =\= skill, it ='s knowledge.

edit- And don't think you can slink away for a couple days once I've backed you into a corner, than slink back and try to pick up the status quo. You've yet to back up your earlier claim that Anakin defeated Drallig through superior force aptitude, despite him being a master of only one form. Feel free to address that.

Anakin is more than a master of just one form. A few weeks after RotS in Rise of Darth Vader he's already cobbled together a style of combat suited to his new state: 'His style borrowed elements from all techniques of combat, even from the highest, most dangerous levels, and his moves were crisp and unpredictable.'

Fightsaber also says that as Vader he developed a refined version of Djem So that included Ataru and Soresu elements, but also added Makashi and Juyo. The latter means that he had to be a master of these multiple forms.

Anakin was a fantastic lightsaber duelist. He shouldn't be underestimated.

Originally posted by Tzeentch._
Your word quilt is filled with bullshit Ray, so I'm going to address the core underlying principle, which you and the other Pro-Kas'im individuals keep toting as if it was the gospel.

Mastery of forms does not decide the victor of a dual.

Dooku's "high-level mastery of soresu" didn't give him the win against either Anakin or Yoda, even when he was fighting Yoda on a dark-side nexus that was enhancing all of his powers. Drallig's mastery of all the forms, which obviously means soresu, didn't stop Anakin from curbing him into dust. Grievous knew soresu, and was personally trained by Dooku. Didn't stop Obi-Wan from slaughtering him. Hell, it didn't even stop Kit Fisto from slaughtering him, and Kit's a master of the most basic form.

Superior skill decides the victor of a dual. Mastery over a form =\= skill, it ='s knowledge.

edit- And don't think you can slink away for a couple days once I've backed you into a corner, than slink back and try to pick up the status quo. You've yet to back up your earlier claim that Anakin defeated Drallig through superior force aptitude, despite him being a master of only one form. Feel free to address that.

In each of the duels that you mention, there has been a significant mismatch in ability to use the Force as either a weapon or a buff. You're throwing around a loss to the chosen one as though Johun has schooled someone.

In a battle between equals in the Force, technique is the deciding factor.