Originally posted by The_Tempest
George Lucas refers to the Jedi order during the prequels as "the golden age of Jedi" with respect to combat (Attack of the Clones featurette).
Indeed. Still, while that says to me that they have a higher concentration of high-end duelists than other eras, that doesn't say to me that they should run over the top duelists of other eras, especially when comparing someone around 6th place to someone in contention for first.
Originally posted by Rookwood
In a battle between Dooku and Kas'im - Dooku would win after a difficult duel.Obi-wan who is below Dooku, but extremely close to Kas'im in terms of capabilities, would put up a very hellish fight against Kas'im, and lose.
Kas'im wins this - but he'll be limping away afterward.
Not a chance bro, Dooku is good but Kas'im is on another level, they're both around the same level in Force powers probably, but Kas'im is the definite advantage in saber styles, Dooku like Obi-Wan is high level of one form but Kas'im is high level master of all.
You see it in MMA all the time, the more weapons you have the more you keep your opponent guessing and the more effectiuve your attack is, plus it makes you more preperaed for whever a fight can take you, hence why in MMA it is usually the Muay Thai practritioners with grappling that present the greatest threat (example: Jon Jones - he strikes with kicks to keep distance, using side kicks to push oppinennt back, oblique kicks to target joints, roudnhouse kick for damage, and when it gets close elbows/knees or the clinch with takedowns, where he can use submissions or nasty ground n pound elbows), when you have less weapons it usually takes a lot more skill, athleticism or toughness to compete, hence Anderson Silva and no wrestling.
Hence, Kas'im can tailor the style he uses against Makashi, so he will use Makashi's weak point, and vary styles tjhat best suits terrain, range and angles. Kas'im would defeat Dooku in quite ahrd battle.
Originally posted by Pwned
It will be absurdly difficult for Kas'im, but he can win. Personally, I can see him losing a limb in order to take down Kenobi.
What kind absurd preidction is this bro?! He will win but lose a limb? Silly argument bro.
Keep in mind that Kas'im is also so highly accredited because of how he fights. He straight out says that most people will not know how to fight a double bladed saber, and that is why he wins so much. Then he goes on to losing that part of the fight to Bane (Who is only a moderate-level saber user) until he swaps to two blades. However, Kenobi has experience fighting all of these weapons. That , combined with his prodigious defensive ability, means Kas'im will have to resort to some really unorthodox things.All in all, I would say 5/10 or 6/10 for Kas'im.
Bane only beating Kas'im because he memorised his moves perfectly, and because he is extremely powerful in the Force, much more so than Dooku or Obi-Wan.
Obi-Wan has little to offer Kas'im, Kasa'im wins 99/100.
I'm not entirely convinced by Kas'im here. Kas'im was the Sith lightsaber instructor, and a master of all the lightsaber forms. Yet, that makes him no different than a Jedi Battlemaster, such as Cin Drallig. Drallig also mastered the Forms, but got owned by pre-suit Vader. Sora Bulq also mastered every form of lightsaber combat, and yet he lost to Quinlan Vos (fvck yeah).
Also, in the "Round 1" of the Lehon duel, Bane was outdueling Kas'Im. Only when Kas'im pulled out the completely foreign Jar'Kai did the battle change tides.
Finally, this:
"Kas'im lunged again, and the room around them was filled with the hiss hum of lightsabers striking each other half a dozen times in the space of two heartbeats."
Even if you assume some insane heart rate, such as 180 beats per minute, that would mean that Kas'im and Bane were striking each other 6 times in .67 seconds. Therefore, in 1 second, they were essentially striking each other about 9 times.
If Kenobi can defend up to 20 strikes per second, well then...
Kas'im was a master of all seven forms of lightsaber combat, honing each move down to complete perfection and then was able to fight by consistantly changing styles to confound and bewilder his opponents. Even if he starts losing with his double-bladed saber, he can always switch to dual wielding regular lightsabers.
I don't recall Kenobi EVER coming up against an enemy of that caliber, but if he did, he would be dead in a matter of a few minutes.
Originally posted by jmoul
Kas'im was a master of all seven forms of lightsaber combat, honing each move down to complete perfection and then was able to fight by consistantly changing styles to confound and bewilder his opponents. Even if he starts losing with his double-bladed saber, he can always switch to dual wielding regular lightsabers.I don't recall Kenobi EVER coming up against an enemy of that caliber, but if he did, he would be dead in a matter of a few minutes.
And yet, that mastery and constant switching didn't work well against Bane. And this is also against the guy who is the greatest practitioner of Soresu, the defensive form. If Kenobi could really defend against up to 20 strikes per second, and Bane and Kas'Im were striking each other at 9 or less times a second, I don't how see how Kas'Im overwhelms Kenobi...
Sora Bul and Cin Drallig like anoon bondaras were lightsaber instructors but that does not mean that they mastered all of them, just that they could teach and probably mastered at least 1 (quinlan vos has only fluke victory over sulq bora btw).
Bane only doing well against kas'im because he trained with him for hours and memories all his moves,plus his incredible sterngth in the force.
Yes Kenobi can defend 20 strieks a second but it is not all about speed Grievous may be faster than kas'im but he nowhere enar as skilled Kas'im will be far more accurate and use far better combinations and misdiretcion etc. and open up Kenboi's defences using skill and careful, clever sowrdplay.
Just like Barecelona use great and skillful passing/possession game to open up teams, whereas other teams may rely more on powerful, quick players with good long shooting abilities.
Originally posted by -kV-
And yet, that mastery and constant switching didn't work well against Bane. And this is also against the guy who is the greatest practitioner of Soresu, the defensive form. If Kenobi could really defend against up to 20 strikes per second, and Bane and Kas'Im were striking each other at 9 or less times a second, I don't how see how Kas'Im overwhelms Kenobi...
As I said, Kas'im was a master of ALL SEVEN forms of lightsaber combat, including Soresu, and when one is a master of any form, they will know every single weakness found in each style, which Kas'im will exploit at every turn.
Look, Kas'im is just too good for Kenobi, his skill with lightsabers exceeds Kenobi's by a quantum leap. There is literally no way for Kenobi to beat him. The reason Kas'im lost to Bane was because Bane caught him monologing on the Lost World and caused the entire temple to collapse onto Kas'im. Kenobi doesn't have a temple, past experience with facing Kas'im, nor is he anywhere near as strong in the Force as Bane was.
Sorry, but suck it up, Kenobi loses everytime.
Originally posted by Q99That matters a lot when literally not a single individual in that order that Kas'im is flourishing in was renown for aptitude with a lightsaber.
Indeed. Still, while that says to me that they have a higher concentration of high-end duelists than other eras, that doesn't say to me that they should run over the top duelists of other eras, especially when comparing someone around 6th place to someone in contention for first.
Originally posted by jmoul
As I said, Kas'im was a master of ALL SEVEN forms of lightsaber combat, including Soresu, and when one is a master of any form, they will know every single weakness found in each style, which Kas'im will exploit at every turn.
That's simply not true. Awareness of Soresu's weakness doesn't automatically translate to successful exploitation. You need to be able to execute and actually penetrate the defense. Nothing definitive tells me that Kas'im has the capability of doing just that. Kas'im could rely on whatever technique to hammer away at Kenobi, but if Obi-Wan's bladework is too fast and always one step ahead, then the Sith Lord will ultimately never get past that defense.
Originally posted by jmoul
Look, Kas'im is just too good for Kenobi, his skill with lightsabers exceeds Kenobi's by a quantum leap. There is literally no way for Kenobi to beat him.
This just reeks of fanboyism...Simply stating he's the best doesn't prove how...
Originally posted by jmoul
The reason Kas'im lost to Bane was because Bane caught him monologing on the Lost World and caused the entire temple to collapse onto Kas'im.
Actually, the only reason Kas'im even had a ghost of chance was he decided to unleash a completely foreign technique that Bane had never witnessed. In Round 1, Bane had his number completely, even though Kas'im was trying all sorts of different forms and maneuvers. Kenobi has sparred and fought against master practitioners of numerous forms, and he wouldn't be surprised by anything.
Originally posted by jmoul
Kenobi doesn't have a temple, past experience with facing Kas'im, nor is he anywhere near as strong in the Force as Bane was.Sorry, but suck it up, Kenobi loses everytime.
And how are you saying that Kas'im is so much stronger in the Force than Kenobi? What evidence? That he can TK? That he can Force shield? And what makes you think that Kas'im will rely on these unknown prodigious Force abilities to win? This will primarily be a lightsaber contest.
Until you provide actual evidence to suggest how Kas'im can overcome Kenobi's defense, you have no argument.
Originally posted by TheOneOfMortis
Sora Bul and Cin Drallig like anoon bondaras were lightsaber instructors but that does not mean that they mastered all of them, just that they could teach and probably mastered at least 1
Except the Star Wars Databank stated Bulq as, "one of the greatest lightsaber instructors the Jedi order had ever known, perfecting the various forms of combat techniques, both classical and experimental." Bulq did indeed master and perfect the lightsaber forms, yet that skill provided zero help when him and Tholme tried to fight Dooku. Similar to Cin Drallig's case, it goes to show that even if you are a master of lightsaber combat, and you have the capacity to switch forms to exploit your opponent's fighting style, you still may not overcome your enemy if he/she is simply too good.
Originally posted by TheOneOfMortis ]
(quinlan vos has only fluke victory over sulq bora btw).
Except it was hardly a "fluke" :
Originally posted by Korto VosQuinlan was fighting Bulq, and an even tougher battle against his own mental demons at the same time. How he managed to hold on against one of the Order's best swordsman was impressive. And how is it against Vos that he landed the killing stroke?
Unlike Maul vs. TPM Kenobi, the duel was over and Maul was just standing like an idiot before Kenobi completely surprised him and hit the "shot that counted."
However, the fight between Bulq and Vos was still ongoing when Vos was brought down to his knees. Bulq did a final Dun Moch then rushed in for the kill. At that time, Vos overcame his inner darkness and had the presence of mind and speed to slay Bulq before the Weequy completed his stroke.
http://youtu.be/MYw5KWTe15I?t=1m43s
Watch from 1:43. You see Dooku move and ready himself for the killing stroke. Imagine Obi-Wan at that instant, bursts upward and slashes the Count across his chest before Dooku completes his attack.
Likewise, at the end, Quinlan embraced the light, and had greater Force acuity and speed to beat Bulq's finisher.
He fought two battles in one duel, and came out the victor in both. Quinlan outfought Bulq in the end; it may not have been pretty, but he proved he was a better warrior than "one of the greatest lightsaber instructors the Order has ever known."
Originally posted by TheOneOfMortis
Bane only doing well against kas'im because he trained with him for hours and memories all his moves,plus his incredible sterngth in the force.
As I said before, Obi-Wan has spent thousands of hours sparring, and fighting against practitioners of the various forms.
I might as well quote this:
The electrodrivers powering Grievous's mechanical arms let each of the four attack thrice in a single second; integrated by combat algorithms in the bio-droid's electronic network of peripheral processors, each of the twelve strikes per second came from a different angle with different speed and intensity, an unpredictably broken rhythm of slashes, chops, and stabs of which every single one could take Obi-Wan's life. Not one touched him.
After all, he had often walked unscathed through hornet-swarms of blasterfire, defended only by the Force's direction of his blade; countering twelve blows per second was only difficult, not impossible. His blade wove an intricate web of angles and curves, never truly fast but always just fast enough, each motion of his lightsaber subtly interfering with three or four or eight of the general's strikes, the rest sizzling past him, his precise, minimal shifts of weight and stance slipping them by centimeters.
Grievous, snarling fury, ramped up the intensity and velocity of his attacks-sixteen per second, eighteen-until finally, at twenty strikes per second, he overloaded Obi-Wan's defense. So Obi-Wan used his defense to attack. A subtle shift in the angle of a single parry brought Obi-Wan's blade in contact not with the blade of the oncoming lightsaber, but with the handgrip.
Originally posted by TheOneOfMortis
Yes Kenobi can defend 20 strieks a second but it is not all about speed Grievous may be faster than kas'im but he nowhere enar as skilled Kas'im will be far more accurate and use far better combinations and misdiretcion etc. and open up Kenboi's defences using skill and careful, clever sowrdplay.Just like Barecelona use great and skillful passing/possession game to open up teams, whereas other teams may rely more on powerful, quick players with good long shooting abilities.
Grievous's attacks were programmed for deadly efficacy. All of his strikes had different pace/angle, and each of them were capable of killing Kenobi. Futhermore, his attacks were much faster than Kas'im's. Nothing could break Kenobi's defense.
As for your example, fine, Kas'im may be Barcelona, but then Obi-Wan could be Chelsea. You remember their last Champions League clash. Barcelona kept attacking and attacking, and Chelsea defended and defended. When there was a brief opening, Chelsea came in and counterattacked for the win.
Originally posted by Q99
Indeed. Still, while that says to me that they have a higher concentration of high-end duelists than other eras, that doesn't say to me that they should run over the top duelists of other eras, especially when comparing someone around 6th place to someone in contention for first.
All I'm saying is that determining the fight on a comparison of their relative placement of their era is faulty thinking. It may be a fair place to begin the conversation, but shouldn't be the end of it.
Again, by no means am I completely rooting for Kenobi here, even despite that lengthy post above. If the outcome was so certain from the get-go, I wouldn't have created this thread.
All I seem to be hearing is, "Kas'im knows all lightsaber forms! Kas'im is a master of these forms! Ergo, Kas'im will be able to break Kenobi's defense!" Except that last part simply isn't true, and definitely shouldn't be the sole piece of evidence to give the Sith Lord the win.
Originally posted by The_Tempest
All I'm saying is that determining the fight on a comparison of their relative placement of their era is faulty thinking. It may be a fair place to begin the conversation, but shouldn't be the end of it.
Here's the thing: What are our options?
Figuring the place in the era, and figuring how the two eras compare to each other, is pretty much the only way to compare that we've got.
Originally posted by -kV-
Except the Star Wars Databank stated Bulq as, "one of the greatest lightsaber instructors the Jedi order had ever known, perfecting the various forms of combat techniques, both classical and experimental." Bulq did indeed master and perfect the lightsaber forms, yet that skill provided zero help when him and Tholme tried to fight Dooku.
So? All it stated is that he masters lightsaber forms, not all of them. and Dooku defeats Bulq via the Force btw.,
Similar to Cin Drallig's case, it goes to show that even if you are a master of lightsaber combat, and you have the capacity to switch forms to exploit your opponent's fighting style, you still may not overcome your enemy if he/she is simply too good.
Kas'im is still much better than people you listed, and I dont know why you seem to think Obi-Wan is one of those guys who can beat the more skilled swordsmen. Obi-Wan is not a great Force User pal, he is not a Bane, a Exar Kun, a Qui-Gon Jinn etc, he is average at best and just reaLLY GOOD at a single lightsaber form.
This is not case where mosre skilled swordsman is againast more powerful force user. Kas'im is both more skilled and more powerful than Obi-Wan as hence from his tanking a temple destrpoying attack.
Except it was hardly a "fluke" :
It really was champ, Sora Bulq is owning him entire battle and Quinlan surprises him at the end with killer blow. In any kind of combat sport that would be called a "flash KO" and would be considered a fluke, i.e. JDS-Velasqeuz 1 or GSP-Matt Serra 1.
As I said before, Obi-Wan has spent thousands of hours sparring, and fighting against practitioners of the various forms.
Bro. This is not same thing as memorising all of Kas'ims exact moves.
I might as well quote this:The electrodrivers powering Grievous's mechanical arms let each of the four attack thrice in a single second; integrated by combat algorithms in the bio-droid's electronic network of peripheral processors, [B]each of the twelve strikes per second came from a different angle with different speed and intensity, an unpredictably broken rhythm of slashes, chops, and stabs of which every single one could take Obi-Wan's life. Not one touched him.
After all, he had often walked unscathed through hornet-swarms of blasterfire, defended only by the Force's direction of his blade; countering twelve blows per second was only difficult, not impossible. His blade wove an intricate web of angles and curves, never truly fast but always just fast enough, each motion of his lightsaber subtly interfering with three or four or eight of the general's strikes, the rest sizzling past him, his precise, minimal shifts of weight and stance slipping them by centimeters.
Grievous, snarling fury, ramped up the intensity and velocity of his attacks-sixteen per second, eighteen-until finally, at twenty strikes per second, he overloaded Obi-Wan's defense. So Obi-Wan used his defense to attack. A subtle shift in the angle of a single parry brought Obi-Wan's blade in contact not with the blade of the oncoming lightsaber, but with the handgrip.
Grievous's attacks were programmed for deadly efficacy. All of his strikes had different pace/angle, and each of them were capable of killing Kenobi. Futhermore, his attacks were much faster than Kas'im's. Nothing could break Kenobi's defense.
Pal you already made your point, his attacks were fast, I did not disagree with that, point is Obi-Wan showed great defence against a forceful attack, which is not same thing as defending against a skillfull attack, not one bit.
As for your example, fine, Kas'im may be Barcelona, but then Obi-Wan could be Chelsea. You remember their last Champions League clash. Barcelona kept attacking and attacking, and Chelsea defended and defended. When there was a brief opening, Chelsea came in and counterattacked for the win. [/B]
You have digressed.
Originally posted by -kV-
Again, by no means am I completely rooting for Kenobi here, even despite that lengthy post above. If the outcome was so certain from the get-go, I wouldn't have created this thread.All I seem to be hearing is, "Kas'im knows all lightsaber forms! Kas'im is a master of these forms! Ergo, Kas'im will be able to break Kenobi's defense!" Except that last part simply isn't true, and definitely shouldn't be the sole piece of evidence to give the Sith Lord the win.
How about, he is also more powerful in the Force AS WELL as having mastered all 9 forms?
Originally posted by The_Tempest
Korto, I would advise you to look up Silver2467's arguments for Obi-Wan and the like on Comic Vine. Extremely well sourced and articulated; he handed Nephthys his ass there on an argument about Bane (or was it Zannah?) vs. Obi-Wan.
Oh cute, he's on there too. 😊
On another note though, I never thought the people on Comic Vine knew much about Star Wars.
Honestly, you'd have to be brain-damaged or be high on crack to think Obi-wan has a chance at all against DoE Bane - especially after the revelation of the Rain-Feat.
They clearly don't know what they're talking about - but DoE Bane would rape Obi-wan really hard, before killing him.
Bane has Obi-wan out-classed in swordsmanship, speed and of course, Force capability/strength. So it should be obvious.
I expected this much though, after I saw that they were, for reason, actually debating a Yoda vs Darth Nihilus thread.
- As if there's anything in there to actually debate about..
Edit: Obi-wan would get raped by DoE Bane - and come to think of it, saying that Obi-wan can take Bane, is like saying Obi-wan can take Sidious.
And he can't take either.
Originally posted by Q99
Here's the thing: What are our options?Figuring the place in the era, and figuring how the two eras compare to each other, is pretty much the only way to compare that we've got.
Hmm I wouldn't say that you can still look at their individual credentials, hence Kas'im mastering all forms versus Obi-Wan's one, tanking Bane's force attack that destroy temple where obi-wan get ragdolled by middle tier force user like dooku.