Kas'im vs. Obi-Wan Kenobi

Originally posted by Rookwood
Oh cute, he's on there too. 😊

On another note though, I never thought the people on Comic Vine knew much about Star Wars.

Honestly, you'd have to be brain-damaged or be high on crack to think Obi-wan has a chance at all against DoE Bane - especially after the revelation of the Rain-Feat.

They clearly don't know what they're talking about - but DoE Bane would rape Obi-wan really hard, before killing him.

Bane has Obi-wan out-classed in swordsmanship, speed and of course, Force capability/strength. So it should be obvious.

I expected this much though, after I saw that they were, for reason, actually debating a Yoda vs Darth Nihilus thread.

- As if there's anything in there to actually debate about..

Edit: Obi-wan would get raped by DoE Bane - and come to think of it, saying that Obi-wan can take Bane, is like saying Obi-wan can take Sidious.

And he can't take either.

Silver, like him or not, habitually provides exhaustive support from a spectrum of sources to substantiate his claims.

That separates him from more than a few here, who are simply content to make baseless claims ad nauseam.

Originally posted by TheOneOfMortis
That we know of.

Originally posted by Q99
Here's the thing: What are our options?

Figuring the place in the era, and figuring how the two eras compare to each other, is pretty much the only way to compare that we've got.

Compare them by way of feats. Simply saying "Well, Obi-Wan was about the 7th best Jedi Master at the time" whereas "Kas'im was about number 1 in his time" is not enough to decide the contest.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Silver, like him or not, habitually provides exhaustive support from a spectrum of sources to substantiate his claims.

That separates him from more than a few here, who are simply content to make baseless claims ad nauseam.

I wasn't referring to Silver in that first line (I actually don't know him) - I was referring to Nephthys. I like him. 😊

But aside from that.

Whatever good points Silver does bring up about Obi-wan, it wouldn't save him from the fact that DoE Bane, on his worst day, could likely kill Obi-wan on his best day.

It also seems like most of the Comic Vine folk in there haven't read Dynasty of Evil, either.

Originally posted by Rookwood
I wasn't referring to Silver in that first line (I actually don't know him) - I was referring to Nephthys. I like him. 😊

I know you weren't. You disparaged the Comic Viners, which is why I said that Silver (like him or not) is a paragon of substantiation and support.

Originally posted by Rookwood
But aside from that.

Whatever good points Silver does bring up about Obi-wan, it wouldn't save him from the fact that DoE Bane, on his worst day, could likely kill Obi-wan on his best day.

It also seems like most of the Comic Vine folk in there haven't read Dynasty of Evil, either.

I'm not speaking for the Comic Vine folk in general. I'm speaking for one. And that one provides tremendous support for his claims... unlike some others. That already puts him and his argument at an advantage.

Originally posted by Tzeentch._
Nothing else really matters, in a discussion that's supposed to be about facts.

It is a fact that we do not know if there were other renowned Sith lightsaber practitioners in Kas'im's era. Apparently Kopez was really good though.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
I know you weren't. You disparaged the Comic Viners, which is why I said that Silver (like him or not) is a paragon of substantiation and support.

I'm not speaking for the Comic Vine folk in general. I'm speaking for one. And that one provides tremendous support for his claims... unlike some others. That already puts him and his argument at an advantage.

Well I can respect you for taking his side for that.

If he does bring up good, astute factual points, then that is a boon.

But I'm just saying, all the good factoids in the universe, wouldn't save Obi-wan from Bane, ramming his lightsaber into Obi-wan's ass.

I don't disparage all the Comic Viners, though, it just looks like some of them haven't read DoE.

Originally posted by TheOneOfMortis
So? All it stated is that he masters lightsaber forms, not all of them. and Dooku defeats Bulq via the Force btw.,

You're missing the point my friend. That statement on Bulq is similar to the description on Kas'im. And yet, we know that Bulq would be outclassed by Obi-Wan in dueling.

Kas'im is still much better than people you listed, and I dont know why you seem to think Obi-Wan is one of those guys who can beat the more skilled swordsmen. Obi-Wan is not a great Force User pal, he is not a Bane, a Exar Kun, a Qui-Gon Jinn etc, he is average at best and just reaLLY GOOD at a single lightsaber form.

If you define skillful as being overall more proficient in more lightsaber forms than another, then yes, Kas'im is more "skillful" than Kenobi. However, as I have been saying, Kas'im's mastery of the forms doesn't translate to him overcoming one considered to be the greatest in one form. Kas'im could try whatever attack he want, but he still won't succeed.

This is not case where mosre skilled swordsman is againast more powerful force user. Kas'im is both more skilled and more powerful than Obi-Wan as hence from his tanking a temple destrpoying attack.

I ask you again- please tell me how Kas'im could use the Force to win against Kenobi.

It really was champ, Sora Bulq is owning him entire battle and Quinlan surprises him at the end with killer blow. In any kind of combat sport that would be called a "flash KO" and would be considered a fluke, i.e. JDS-Velasqeuz 1 or GSP-Matt Serra 1

Except you just dodged my previous post explaining why it wasn't simply a fluke victory. Again, the whole point of this was to show why being a master lightsaber instructor who knows every form doesn't translate you to being the best fighter.

Bro. This is not same thing as memorising all of Kas'ims exact moves.

It is not about memorization. Rather, Obi-Wan would be well-familiar with any style Kas'im decides to attack with.

Pal you already made your point, his attacks were fast, I did not disagree with that, point is Obi-Wan showed great defence against a forceful attack, which is not same thing as defending against a skillfull attack, not one bit.

Grievous's attacks were coming in with different angle, pace, and power. Each of those 12, 16, 18, and finally 20 attacks were different. You cannot downgrade this as a "forceful attack" lacking any skill when each of these 12+ different attacks could "take Obi-Wan's life" if they weren't all blocked.

I fail to see how a Jedi who can defend successfully against a cyborg who can launch 20 different deadly strikes per second would suddenly have difficulty against someone who attacks "half a dozen times in 2 heartbeats" (9 >/= x strikes/second). Even if Kas'im's attacks were, as you put it, "skillful" Kenobi would have plenty of time to react to them. And I've already explained why even if Kas'im was more "skillful" relative to being better overall with respect to the number of forms, that doesn't translate to Kenobi suddenly having difficulty with attacks from forms he is well-familiar with.

You have digressed.

Except you brought up the analogy, and I countered with a similar analogy to prove why Kas'im could still lose.

Originally posted by -kV-
You're missing the point my friend. That statement on Bulq is similar to the description on Kas'im. And yet, we know that Bulq would be outclassed by Obi-Wan in dueling.

But it's not as good, Sora masters some lightsaber duels, Kas'im masters ALL 9., So Kas'im is still a lot more skilled, plis he is probable more powerful with the force.

We dont know obi-Wan ebats Sora Bulq btw.

If you define skillful as being overall more proficient in more lightsaber forms than another, then yes, Kas'im is more "skillful" than Kenobi.

Seiing as Kas'im is not just master but high level master of all 9 forms, he is definitely more skilled.

However, as I have been saying, Kas'im's mastery of the forms doesn't translate to him overcoming one considered to be the greatest in one form. Kas'im could try whatever attack he want, but he still won't succeed.

Kas'im is at very least close to Obi-wan in Soresu, as he is high level master of the form. So then take into account his masteyr of all the others, it is no contest imo.

I ask you again- please tell me how Kas'im could use the Force to win against Kenobi.

Point is Bane is more powerful in the force and so he is faster, stronger, more atheltic basically. Obi-Wan does not possess this same advnatge.

Except you just dodged my previous post explaining why it wasn't simply a fluke victory. Again, the whole point of this was to show why being a master lightsaber instructor who knows every form doesn't translate you to being the best fighter.

Sora does not know eveyr form though.

It is not about memorization. Rather, Obi-Wan would be well-familiar with any style Kas'im decides to attack with.

Which is not as good as memorising them exactly vbro.

Grievous's attacks were coming in with [B]different angle, pace, and power. Each of those 12, 16, 18, and finally 20 attacks were different. You cannot downgrade this as a "forceful attack" lacking any skill when each of these 12+ different attacks could "take Obi-Wan's life" if they weren't all blocked.

I never claimed thta they were no skill at all but point is main selling point of them is speed, only thing special ewas speed, what is special ABOUT kASD'im is his skill, so it is compeltely different type of attack Obi-Wan is defending against.

I fail to see how a Jedi who can defend successfully against a cyborg who can launch 20 different deadly strikes per second would suddenly have difficulty against someone who attacks "half a dozen times in 2 heartbeats" (9 >/= x strikes/second). Even if Kas'im's attacks were, as you put it, "skillful" Kenobi would have plenty of time to react to them. And I've already explained why even if Kas'im was more "skillful" relative to being better overall with respect to the number of forms, that doesn't translate to Kenobi suddenly having difficulty with attacks from forms he is well-familiar with.

You is comparing apples and pears. grievous brings a lot of speed to the table. Kas'im brings skill. It is like comparing say, Vitor Belfort and Anderson Siva. Vitor Belfort has much faster hands, but Anderson Silva is still far more dangerous strikwer nad it because of his mix of speed, power, accuracy, technique, misdirection and timing.

Except you brought up the analogy, and I countered with a similar analogy to prove why Kas'im could still lose. [/B]

Point I was making is that it isnt just about speed. Otherwise lightwegiths would be more dangerous than heavyweights.

Originally posted by TheOneOfMortis
Hmm I wouldn't say that you can still look at their individual credentials, hence Kas'im mastering all forms versus Obi-Wan's one, tanking Bane's force attack that destroy temple where obi-wan get ragdolled by middle tier force user like dooku.

I wouldn't exactly call Dooku middle tier.

And force defense shouldn't matter a lot in this fight, Kas'im is going to rely on bladework more.

Another idea for this thread. Not sure if people have forgotten, but Kas'im isn't limited to a double-bladed saber. If things go badly with the double-bladed, he can split the handle to dual wield. When Kas'im did this against Bane, he was almost victorious, had he not started to monolog, giving Bane time to gather his power.

Grievous was both fast and strong, yes, but that is literally ALL he had, he didn't have Kas'im's incredible skill and he did not have control of the Force after he became mostly robot.

Now, take half of Grievous's speed, add Kas'im's mastery to the point of perfection in EVERY form of saber combat (as it states in PoD) and his strong command of the Force. Kenobi was able to beat Grievous because the robot was both overconfident, and he had NO command of the Force.

Kenobi is among my favorite characters in the movies; he does what he must without emotions stopping him. I honestly see him as a total badass in the movies, but he is clearly out-matched in sabers when facing Kas'im.

Finally, when I said Kas'im was a master of all the forms of saber combat, knew the weaknesses of each form and would exploit those weaknesses, I thought it was implied that I meant that he would TRY to exploit the weaknesses in Obi-Wan's style. My claim that Kas'im would exploit all weaknesses he could is from my own knowledge of sword combat from my European and Japanese Fencing classes: if you can see (or if you already know of) a weakness in your opponent's frame and form, exploit it as soon as possible. Kas'im would be skilled enough to know that basic strategy, and with his skill, there is no chance that anybody, even those who have mastered defensive styles, can stand against one who has mastered every form there is to master, as the one who mastered more knows exactly how to exploit a weakness and will do so as soon as they see it.

Originally posted by TheOneOfMortis
But it's not as good, Sora masters some lightsaber duels, Kas'im masters ALL 9., So Kas'im is still a lot more skilled, plis he is probable more powerful with the force.

Firstly, dude, Sora Bulq did master all forms of lightsaber combat. It even says on the second sentence of his Wookie page:"Renowned among the Jedi for his skill with a lightsaber, Bulq mastered every form of lightsaber combat known among the Jedi, becoming one of their greatest instructors in the lightsaber forms."

What did you think, "one of the greatest lightsaber instructors the Jedi order had ever known, perfecting the various forms of combat techniques, both classical and experimental," meant?

Secondly, according to you, mastering more lightsaber forms = being more skilled = being better. Therefore, according to you, Sora Bulq/Anoon Bondara/Cin Drallig > Anakin Skywalker.

👆

Thirdly, your only evidence that Kas'im is greater in the Force than Kenobi is because the former employed Force Shield against Bane's temple-destroying TK. While I give Kas'im some points for that, that feat didn't occur in the middle of blazing fast lightsaber combat. During battle, Kenobi stalemated Anakin's (y'know, the guy with the highest Force potential/Midi-chlorian count and the guy that Mace Windu judged to possess even more power than him) TK on Mustafar, which is tremendous in itself. Hence, your statement that Kas'im is more powerful in the Force than Kenobi is highly questionable.

But of course, we know that both of these guys prefer lightsaber combat, and employing the Force to boost their physical capabilities. The likelihood that either randomly starts busting out TK is low - this contest should be viewed as predominately sabers exclusive.

We dont know obi-Wan ebats Sora Bulq btw.

Really? Quit playing dumb. Quinlan Vos > Sora Bulq. Vos is a bad@ss, but even I wouldn't dare say that he is better than Kenobi.

Seiing as Kas'im is not just master but high level master of all 9 forms, he is definitely more skilled.

This point is moot based on above.

Kas'im is at very least close to Obi-wan in Soresu, as he is high level master of the form. So then take into account his masteyr of all the others, it is no contest imo.

Firstly, this is complete speculation on your part. Many Jedi and Sith have "mastered" one or more lightsaber forms, but there is levels in itself in "mastery." Cin Drallig, as a Battlemaster, "mastered" every form, yet Vader's "mastery" in Djem So was beyond anything Drallig could counter.

Secondly, assuming your speculation was true for a second, even if he was "very close" to Kenobi in Soresu, and equally as good in the other forms, it makes no difference because:

* Dooku (the only other individual besides Yoda to have beaten Windu in sparring), the master of Makashi (the form meant for lightsaber combat), was like "Fvck it" against Kenobi's Soresu. Only when Kenobi and Skywalker attacked, and Kenobi's defense "opened up" did Dooku catch Obi-Wan off guard and used the Force to incapacitate him.

[This is also my reasoning why had Kenobi faced Dooku solo, the duel would have by no means been a stomp, but rather a difficult victory for Tyrannus - but I digress here]

* Anakin/Vader, arguably the finest user of Djem So, couldn't break through Kenobi's defense.

* Also, just to add this for the sake of it, even Maul and Opress (both very powerful) together lost to Kenobi.

What essentially I am demonstrating here is that even individuals considered to be the greatest practitioners of their respective forms (Dooku/Makashi and Anakin/Djem So) were unable to penetrate Kenobi's Soresu defense. Kenobi has displayed the ability to maintain his Soresu bladework against masters of variant forms. Kas'im's "mastery" of all the forms, therefore, doesn't confer him automatic victory.

Point is Bane is more powerful in the force and so he is faster, stronger, more atheltic basically. Obi-Wan does not possess this same advnatge.

Again, more speculation on your part. You are also contradicted by the source material. According to you, because Bane has greater Force strength, he is "faster, stronger, and more athletic" than Kenobi. If that was the case, then why are him and Kas'im fighting much slower than Grievous and Kenobi?

Sora does not know eveyr form though.

Moot point. Though I must comment that simply stating that "Kas'im knew 9 forms!!!111 Sora knew like 7. Ergo Kas'im is much better!!!111" is a rather weak rebuttal. Doesn't help your rebuttal is false though.

Which is not as good as memorising them exactly vbro.

Err...so what? I'm failing to see your point man.

I never claimed thta they were no skill at all but point is main selling point of them is speed, only thing special ewas speed, what is special ABOUT kASD'im is his skill, so it is compeltely different type of attack Obi-Wan is defending against.

Grievous wasn't just unleashing 12/16/18/20 strikes per second quickly. Speed was just one element to them. Mind you, Dooku taught Grievous all the lightsaber forms.

Thus, the other facet is that each of those deadly strikes were of different angle, pace, and intensity, and these attacks are basically indicative of multiple lightsaber techniques being employed simueltaneously.

If each of the cyborg's lightsaber used a different style, then it is almost saying that Kenobi fought the attacks of 4 Jedi at once.

Basically, Grievous combined both skill AND speed. As I mentioned before, Kenobi has survived hornet-swarms of blaster fire from all directions. Thus, it is only logical that his defense limit of 20 strikes per second against Grievous was not based on solely speed, but a combination of speed with Grievous's multifaceted attacks.

You is comparing apples and pears. grievous brings a lot of speed to the table. Kas'im brings skill. It is like comparing say, Vitor Belfort and Anderson Siva. Vitor Belfort has much faster hands, but Anderson Silva is still far more dangerous strikwer nad it because of his mix of speed, power, accuracy, technique, misdirection and timing.

Grievous was Anderson Silva with the speed of Vitor Belfort. I have no idea who these cats are BTW.

LASTLY :

"Bane hesitated...Now, as he saw the cruel and cunning expression on his enemy’s face, Bane understood the real truth.
The battle was rejoined, but now it was Bane who was in full retreat. Without proper training, even his enormous command of the Force was unable to anticipate the unfamiliar sequences of the two-handed fighting style. His mind was flooded with a million options of what his opponent might attempt, and he had no experience to draw on to eliminate any of them. Overwhelmed, he staggered back, floundering with the desperation of a drowning man. Within the first few passes Bane knew he couldn’t win. Kas’im had trained his entire life for this moment. After years of study, he’d mastered all seven forms of the lightsaber. Then he’d honed his skill for decades, perfecting every move and sequence until he had become the perfect weapon and the greatest living swordsman in the galaxy. Maybe the greatest swordsman ever. Bane was no match for him."

If this really was the passage from Path of Destruction that stated how Kas'im was "greatest swordsman ever," then it has to be questioned. Why? Because it is Bane's opinion! This isn't even an objective description such as the one characterizing Sora Bulq from the Star Wars Databank. This is a third-person limited opinion from Bane, who obviously can't make the judgment to call Kas'im as the "greatest swordsman ever."

^

Now take that combined with all the other counterarguments above, and I again fail to see a single case for why Kas'im outclasses Kenobi.

IMO, Kenobi wins.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Korto, I would advise you to look up Silver2467's arguments for Obi-Wan and the like on Comic Vine. Extremely well sourced and articulated; he handed Nephthys his ass there on an argument about Bane (or was it Zannah?) vs. Obi-Wan.

No he didn't. He was a douchebag so I stopped talking to him. I find your reverence for him to be nauseating personally. I only talked to him because you begged me to.

TWENTY STRIKES A SECOND!!!!

In my opinion this is clearly non-canon. Grievious doesn't strike 20 times in the entire duel, never mind ramping up from 12 strikes.

Originally posted by -kV-
Firstly, dude, Sora Bulq did master all forms of lightsaber combat. It even says on the second sentence of his Wookie page:"Renowned among the Jedi for his skill with a lightsaber, Bulq mastered every form of lightsaber combat known among the Jedi, becoming one of their greatest instructors in the lightsaber forms."

What did you think, "one of the greatest lightsaber instructors the Jedi order had ever known, perfecting the various forms of combat techniques, both classical and experimental," meant?

Sora Bulq's martial skills are noted for the Jedi Order; not Sith Order included.

Originally posted by -kV-
Secondly, according to you, mastering more lightsaber forms = being more skilled = being better. Therefore, according to you, Sora Bulq/Anoon Bondara/Cin Drallig > Anakin Skywalker.

👆

Originally posted by -kV-
Thirdly, your only evidence that Kas'im is greater in the Force than Kenobi is because the former employed Force Shield against Bane's temple-destroying TK. While I give Kas'im some points for that, that feat didn't occur in the middle of blazing fast lightsaber combat. During battle, Kenobi stalemated Anakin's (y'know, the guy with the highest Force potential/Midi-chlorian count and the guy that Mace Windu judged to possess even more power than him) TK on Mustafar, which is tremendous in itself. Hence, your statement that Kas'im is more powerful in the Force than Kenobi is highly questionable.

If we are to consider exchange of Force powers during the heat of combat;

Battling through the halls and corridors, the combatants rounded a corner to bring them in sight of the Rakatan Temple’s only entrance: the wide archway and the small landing beyond, with the wide staircase leading back down to the ground nearly twenty meters below. In the instant it took Kas'im to recognize where they were and realize that his opponent might still escape, Bane thrust out with the Force. He knocked the Twi'lek off balance for a brief second, then backflipped out through the archway and onto the landing. He dropped into a crouch, still facing his opponent. But in his haste Bane had leapt too far; he was balanced precariously on the precipice of the uppermost stair, the steps falling sharply away behind him.

Kas'im responded by using the Force to knock Bane backward, sending him tumbling down the great stone staircase, away from the Blademaster. The fall would have broken his neck-or at least fractured an arm or a leg-if Bane hadn't cocooned himself in the Force. Even so he reached the bottom bruised, battered, and momentarily stunned. (Darth Bane: Path of Destruction)

You see that Darth Bane (who is noticeably ahead of Obi-Wan Kenobi in command of the Force) barely managed to knock Lord Kas'im off-balance with his Force push during the the heat of combat in an effort to disconnect from the latter. However, Lord Kas'im easily overwhelmed such a powerful opponent with his Force push in response. I don't see how Obi-Wan would do better with his relatively weaker command of the Force in same situation. Even if Obi-Wan musters up counter Force push in response; I don't see him overwhelming Lord Kas'im with it.

Originally posted by -kV-
But of course, we know that both of these guys prefer lightsaber combat, and employing the Force to boost their physical capabilities. The likelihood that either randomly starts busting out TK is low - this contest should be viewed as predominately sabers exclusive.

Originally posted by -kV-
Firstly, this is complete speculation on your part. Many Jedi and Sith have "mastered" one or more lightsaber forms, but there is levels in itself in "mastery." Cin Drallig, as a Battlemaster, "mastered" every form, yet Vader's "mastery" in Djem So was beyond anything Drallig could counter.

Originally posted by -kV-
Secondly, assuming your speculation was true for a second, even if he was "very close" to Kenobi in Soresu, and equally as good in the other forms, it makes no difference because:

* Dooku (the only other individual besides Yoda to have beaten Windu in sparring), the master of Makashi (the form meant for lightsaber combat), was like "Fvck it" against Kenobi's Soresu. Only when Kenobi and Skywalker attacked, and Kenobi's defense "opened up" did Dooku catch Obi-Wan off guard and used the Force to incapacitate him.

[This is also my reasoning why had Kenobi faced Dooku solo, the duel would have by no means been a stomp, but rather a difficult victory for Tyrannus - but I digress here]

Originally posted by -kV-
* Anakin/Vader, arguably the finest user of Djem So, couldn't break through Kenobi's defense.

If it were Darth Sidious in place of Darth Vader; Obi-Wan would most likely have ended up dead.

Originally posted by -kV-
* Also, just to add this for the sake of it, even Maul and Opress (both very powerful) together lost to Kenobi.

Originally posted by -kV-
What essentially I am demonstrating here is that even individuals considered to be the greatest practitioners of their respective forms (Dooku/Makashi and Anakin/Djem So) were unable to penetrate Kenobi's Soresu defense. Kenobi has displayed the ability to maintain his Soresu bladework against masters of variant forms. Kas'im's "mastery" of all the forms, therefore, doesn't confer him automatic victory.

Kas'im had trained his entire life for this moment. After years of study, he'd mastered all seven forms of the lightsaber. Then he'd honed his skill for decades, perfecting every move and sequence until he had become the perfect weapon and the greatest living swordsman in the galaxy. (Darth Bane: Path of Destruction)

Lord Kas'im not just endured full pressure from Darth Bane head on but even forced the latter to disconnect from him after a very intense clash.

Originally posted by -kV-
Again, more speculation on your part. You are also contradicted by the source material. According to you, because Bane has greater Force strength, he is "faster, stronger, and more athletic" than Kenobi. If that was the case, then why are him and Kas'im fighting much slower than Grievous and Kenobi?

Check how difficult are Lord Kas'im's training sessions:

Soon he was breathing heavily from his exertions. Physically Kas'im's training sessions couldn't measure up to hammering a cortosis vein with a hydraulic jack for hours at a time. But they were far more exhausting in other ways. They demanded intense mental focus, an attention to detail that went far beyond what was visible to the naked eye. True mastery of the blade required a combination of both body and mind.

When two Masters engaged in lightsaber combat, the action happened too quickly for the eye to see or the mind to react. Everything had to be done on instinct; the body had to be trained to move and respond without conscious thought. To accomplish this, Kas'im made his students practice sequences, carefully choreographed series of multiple strikes and parries drawn from their chosen style. The sequences were designed by the Blademaster himself so that each maneuver flowed smoothly into the next, maximizing attack efficiency while minimizing defensive exposure. (Darth Bane: Path of Destruction)

And when Lord Kas'im actually faced Darth Bane with the intentions to kill him:

Kas'im sighed. "Then your life ends here." And be leapt in, his weapon moving with far more speed than he had ever shown during their practice sessions. (Darth Bane: Path of Destruction)

Perhaps the author was at loss of words on how to describe this level of speed.

However, Darth Bane survived this blitz on the basis of his superior command of the Force (Hint: Command of the Force influences both precognitive abilities and reaction-rate).

Originally posted by -kV-
Moot point. Though I must comment that simply stating that "Kas'im knew 9 forms!!!111 Sora knew like 7. Ergo Kas'im is much better!!!111" is a rather weak rebuttal. Doesn't help your rebuttal is false though.

Originally posted by -kV-
Grievous wasn't just unleashing 12/16/18/20 strikes per second quickly. Speed was just one element to them. Mind you, Dooku taught Grievous all the lightsaber forms.

Thus, the other facet is that each of those deadly strikes were of different angle, pace, and intensity, and these attacks are basically indicative of multiple lightsaber techniques being employed simueltaneously.

If each of the cyborg's lightsaber used a different style, then it is almost saying that Kenobi fought the attacks of 4 Jedi at once.

Basically, Grievous combined both skill AND speed. As I mentioned before, Kenobi has survived hornet-swarms of blaster fire from all directions. Thus, it is only logical that his defense limit of 20 strikes per second against Grievous was not based on solely speed, but a combination of speed with Grievous's multifaceted attacks.

Do not forget that Kit Fisto (a master of Form I) also defeated Greivous in a single duel but lost to Ventress. The Jedi Council wisely chose Obi-Wan for this mission. Key difference between Form I and Form III is that the latter Form is also well-suited for lightsaber-to-lightsaber combat.

Originally posted by -kV-
LASTLY :

"Bane hesitated...Now, as he saw the cruel and cunning expression on his enemy’s face, Bane understood the real truth.
The battle was rejoined, but now it was Bane who was in full retreat. Without proper training, even his enormous command of the Force was unable to anticipate the unfamiliar sequences of the two-handed fighting style. His mind was flooded with a million options of what his opponent might attempt, and he had no experience to draw on to eliminate any of them. Overwhelmed, he staggered back, floundering with the desperation of a drowning man. Within the first few passes Bane knew he couldn’t win. Kas’im had trained his entire life for this moment. After years of study, he’d mastered all seven forms of the lightsaber. Then he’d honed his skill for decades, perfecting every move and sequence until he had become the perfect weapon and the greatest living swordsman in the galaxy. Maybe the greatest swordsman ever. Bane was no match for him."

If this really was the passage from Path of Destruction that stated how Kas'im was "greatest swordsman ever," then it has to be questioned. Why? Because it is Bane's opinion! This isn't even an objective description such as the one characterizing Sora Bulq from the Star Wars Databank. This is a third-person limited opinion from Bane, who obviously can't make the judgment to call Kas'im as the "greatest swordsman ever."

Kas'im's blade-work might be perfect but he isn't necessarily the most formidable duelist in Star Wars mythos.

Originally posted by -kV-
Now take that combined with all the other counterarguments above, and I again fail to see a single case for why Kas'im outclasses Kenobi.

IMO, Kenobi wins.

Nice post Legend.

Originally posted by -kV-
Firstly, dude, Sora Bulq did master all forms of lightsaber combat. It even says on the second sentence of his Wookie page:"Renowned among the Jedi for his skill with a lightsaber, Bulq mastered every form of lightsaber combat known among the Jedi, becoming one of their greatest instructors in the lightsaber forms."

Not canon, not interested, pal.

What did you think, "one of the greatest lightsaber instructors the Jedi order had ever known, perfecting the various forms of combat techniques, both classical and experimental," meant?

That he spent time mastering various forms. Not all of them.

Secondly, according to you, mastering more lightsaber forms = being more skilled = being better. Therefore, according to you, Sora Bulq/Anoon Bondara/Cin Drallig > Anakin Skywalker.

👆

More powerful Force Users can defeat the more powerful lightsaber practitione rin lightsaber combat, but unfortunately buddy Obi-Wan is not more skilled, or more powerful than Kas'im.

Face it dude, Obi-Wan is not even close to upper tier. One of my favorite characters but he was never known for being a great fighterever.

Thirdly, your only evidence that Kas'im is greater in the Force than Kenobi is because the former employed Force Shield against Bane's temple-destroying TK. While I give Kas'im some points for that, that feat didn't occur in the middle of blazing fast lightsaber combat. During battle, Kenobi stalemated Anakin's (y'know, the guy with the highest Force potential/Midi-chlorian count and the guy that Mace Windu judged to possess even more power than him) TK on Mustafar, which is tremendous in itself. Hence, your statement that Kas'im is more powerful in the Force than Kenobi is highly questionable.

See Legend's post.

But of course, we know that both of these guys prefer lightsaber combat, and employing the Force to boost their physical capabilities. The likelihood that either randomly starts busting out TK is low - this contest should be viewed as predominately sabers exclusive.

I agree but force powers come into play into lightsabers.

Really? Quit playing dumb. Quinlan Vos > Sora Bulq. Vos is a bad@ss, but even I wouldn't dare say that he is better than Kenobi.

Sure. Just like Matt Serra is > GSP. Just like Gabriel Gonzaga > Cro Cop. People can get caught, it doesn't mean they're not as good, dominating performances beat flash finishes.

This point is moot based on above.

Firstly, this is complete [B]speculation on your part. Many Jedi and Sith have "mastered" one or more lightsaber forms, but there is levels in itself in "mastery." Cin Drallig, as a Battlemaster, "mastered" every form, yet Vader's "mastery" in Djem So was beyond anything Drallig could counter.

Secondly, assuming your speculation was true for a second, even if he was "very close" to Kenobi in Soresu, and equally as good in the other forms, it makes no difference because:

* Dooku (the only other individual besides Yoda to have beaten Windu in sparring), the master of Makashi (the form meant for lightsaber combat), was like "Fvck it" against Kenobi's Soresu. Only when Kenobi and Skywalker attacked, and Kenobi's defense "opened up" did Dooku catch Obi-Wan off guard and used the Force to incapacitate him.

[This is also my reasoning why had Kenobi faced Dooku solo, the duel would have by no means been a stomp, but rather a difficult victory for Tyrannus - but I digress here]

* Anakin/Vader, arguably the finest user of Djem So, couldn't break through Kenobi's defense.

* Also, just to add this for the sake of it, even Maul and Opress (both very powerful) together lost to Kenobi.

What essentially I am demonstrating here is that even individuals considered to be the greatest practitioners of their respective forms (Dooku/Makashi and Anakin/Djem So) were unable to penetrate Kenobi's Soresu defense. Kenobi has displayed the ability to maintain his Soresu bladework against masters of variant forms. Kas'im's "mastery" of all the forms, therefore, doesn't confer him automatic victory.

There is big difference to fighting multiple people who master each individual style, and fighting a guy who masters all himself.

Anderson Silva has defeated elite wrestlers (Chael Sonnen), elite strikers (Vitor Belfort), and elite BJitsukas (Demian Maia) but nobody would try to argue that if you merged all 3 guys into one that he would be able to beat him.

Maul was much weaker during cartoon btw, and see Legend's post on this matter.

Dooku was figthing both Anakin and Obi-Wan at once, he was nevere one on one with Kenobi.

Against Anakin, Obi-Wan had similar advantage that Bane had against Kas'im, as he trained hours sparring with him and knew his moves perfectly.

Again, more speculation on your part. You are also contradicted by the source material. According to you, because Bane has greater Force strength, he is "faster, stronger, and more athletic" than Kenobi. If that was the case, then why are him and Kas'im fighting much slower than Grievous and Kenobi?

Grievous achieves great speed through other emans. Nothing states Kenobi was moving as fast, he does not have to move as fast to defend Grievous's strikes.

Also you have only posted the speed they were moving at at a singl sentence, You don't know that they weren't moving faster at other times. Grievous wasn't moving at 20sps entie duel, he slowly built up to it.

Also see Nethpys the toolbag's post, this is of questionable canon level.

Moot point. Though I must comment that simply stating that "Kas'im knew 9 forms!!!111 Sora knew like 7. Ergo Kas'im is much better!!!111" is a rather weak rebuttal. Doesn't help your rebuttal is false though.

Sora did not know 7 he might not have even known more than 3.

Err...so what? I'm failing to see your point man.

If I memorise the answers to the test, I have advantage over person who has studied all the textbooks extensively. Hence, Dooku training with masters of all forms is not the same as Bane memorising perfectly all of Kas'im's moves.

Grievous wasn't just unleashing 12/16/18/20 strikes per second quickly. Speed was just one element to them. Mind you, Dooku taught Grievous all the lightsaber forms.

Thus, the other facet is that each of those deadly strikes were of different angle, pace, and intensity, and these attacks are basically indicative of multiple lightsaber techniques being employed simueltaneously.

If each of the cyborg's lightsaber used a different style, then it is almost saying that Kenobi fought the attacks of 4 Jedi at once.

Basically, Grievous combined both skill AND speed. As I mentioned before, Kenobi has survived hornet-swarms of blaster fire from all directions. Thus, it is only logical that his defense limit of 20 strikes per second against Grievous was not based on solely speed, but a combination of speed with Grievous's multifaceted attacks.

Grievous was Anderson Silva with the speed of Vitor Belfort. I have no idea who these cats are BTW.

Bro, you heavily overestimate Grievous. He has been extremely underpowered in recent media, even a scrub like Kit Fisto was able to beat him recently. Yes he is extremely fats and strong, yes he uses multiple lightsaber and has training in all forms according to you, but he is not a master of those forms or anywhere enar as skilled a martial artist as Kas'im, and he does not have force connetcion and stuffs like precognition. Hence you is comapring apples and pears.

LASTLY :

"Bane hesitated...Now, as he saw the cruel and cunning expression on his enemy’s face, Bane understood the real truth.
The battle was rejoined, but now it was Bane who was in full retreat. Without proper training, even his enormous command of the Force was unable to anticipate the unfamiliar sequences of the two-handed fighting style. His mind was flooded with a million options of what his opponent might attempt, and he had no experience to draw on to eliminate any of them. Overwhelmed, he staggered back, floundering with the desperation of a drowning man. Within the first few passes Bane knew he couldn’t win. Kas’im had trained his entire life for this moment. After years of study, he’d mastered all seven forms of the lightsaber. Then he’d honed his skill for decades, perfecting every move and sequence until he had become the perfect weapon and the greatest living swordsman in the galaxy. Maybe the greatest swordsman ever. Bane was no match for him."

If this really was the passage from Path of Destruction that stated how Kas'im was "greatest swordsman ever," then it has to be questioned. Why? Because it is Bane's opinion! This isn't even an objective description such as the one characterizing Sora Bulq from the Star Wars Databank. This is a third-person limited opinion from Bane, who obviously can't make the judgment to call Kas'im as the "greatest swordsman ever."

^

Now take that combined with all the other counterarguments above, and I again fail to see a single case for why Kas'im outclasses Kenobi.

IMO, Kenobi wins. [/B]

This argument again?No that is not Bane's opinion that is writer stating that as a fact.

Originally posted by Nephthys
No he didn't. He was a douchebag so I stopped talking to him. I find your reverence for him to be nauseating personally. I only talked to him because you begged me to.

In my opinion this is clearly non-canon. Grievious doesn't strike 20 times in the entire duel, never mind ramping up from 12 strikes.

When you going to join in on the argument bro? I know that youll be rooting for Kas'im too.

Originally posted by Nephthys
No he didn't. He was a douchebag so I stopped talking to him. I find your reverence for him to be nauseating personally. I only talked to him because you begged me to.

😂

Why are you so angry about this?

He was very rude. estahuh

That he was. He was also very right and handed you your ass. No need to put your fragile ego on display, bro.

Take your lashes and learn from it. stoned