KV, as this is essence of your argument, please prove that Grievous' much quicker, skillfull attack is so much harder than Kas'im's much more skillfull, quick attack. Prove that the difference in ten sps is not made up for the fact that Kas'im has much more skillfull attack than grievous.
Also admit please that this is not case of Obi-Wan being more powerful in th Force, and Kas'im's high level mastery of all 9 forms does trumps his high level mastery of just soresu, not the invincible form you make it out to be but a form just like others with weaknesses that can be exploited.
Part 1
Originally posted by -kV-
LASTLY :"Bane hesitated...Now, as he saw the cruel and cunning expression on his enemy’s face, Bane understood the real truth.
The battle was rejoined, but now it was Bane who was in full retreat. Without proper training, even his enormous command of the Force was unable to anticipate the unfamiliar sequences of the two-handed fighting style. His mind was flooded with a million options of what his opponent might attempt, and he had no experience to draw on to eliminate any of them. Overwhelmed, he staggered back, floundering with the desperation of a drowning man. Within the first few passes Bane knew he couldn’t win. Kas’im had trained his entire life for this moment. After years of study, he’d mastered all seven forms of the lightsaber. Then he’d honed his skill for decades, perfecting every move and sequence until he had become the perfect weapon and the greatest living swordsman in the galaxy. Maybe the greatest swordsman ever. Bane was no match for him."If this really was the passage from Path of Destruction that stated how Kas'im was "greatest swordsman ever," then it has to be questioned. Why? Because it is Bane's opinion! This isn't even an objective description such as the one characterizing Sora Bulq from the Star Wars Databank. This is a third-person limited opinion from Bane, who obviously can't make the judgment to call Kas'im as the "greatest swordsman ever."
Let me return to this passage because almost half the argument for Kas’im originates from this paragraph. Please read above. What do you find? Oh…that this is subjective. I repeat, subjective. It is called third person subjective/limited, and for information here is a portion of the Wikipedia description:
The third-person subjective is when the narrator conveys the thoughts, feelings, opinions, etc. of one or more characters… This is almost always the main character—
This style, in both its limited and omniscient variants, became the most popular narrative perspective during the 20th century. In contrast to the broad, sweeping perspectives seen in many 19th-century novels, third-person subjective is sometimes called the "over the shoulder" perspective; the narrator only describes events perceived and information known by a character.
If you read the passage, you certainly notice that the duel is being described from the point of view of Bane. You read of Bane’s noticing the “expression on his enemy’s face,” Bane’s realization of Kas’im’s secret, Bane’s hesitation, Bane’s unfamiliarity with Kas’im’s new form, Bane’s confusion with Kas’im’s next attack, and Bane’s admittance that he “couldn’t win.” It’s ALL from Bane’s POV. Bane expresses that he “knew he couldn’t win” because, according to him, Kas’im had the mastered the forms and was the “greatest living swordsman.” If you want further proof that is Bane’s opinion, and not that of a neutral narrator saying-it-as-it-is, just look at the next sentence, “Maybe the greatest swordsman ever.” Yeah…that’s what I thought.
Once you recognize that the above paragraph is not written in the third-person objective, you realize that this, in fact, is just an in-universe characterization of an individual. This is not even a general statement such as the one written about Sora Bulq.
Can the opposition provide evidence that Bane has acquired the ability to cross space and time? Can the opposition provide evidence that he is a time-traveler who has boldly ventured to the past, present, and future and seen every Jedi, Sith, and warrior in the galaxy fight to objectively state that Kas’im is the “greatest” of his time, or even of all time?
The answers is: No, the opposition cannot.
Fact of the matter is that Drew exaggerated this paragraph to hype the conclusion of Bane vs Kas’im. Literally, two seconds before it was a self-proclaimed Darth still technically part of the Sith Academy owning someone supposedly called to be the “greatest” of present and maybe all-time. And if not for pulling out some unknown form, this “perfect weapon” would have been owned by Bane, who BTW was not reputed as lightsaber expert.
All the Kas’im supporters seem to rely on this passage heavily, even though it has been debunked as in-universe characterization, not an objective statement describing the Twi’lek. Even worse, Kas’im supporters have to rely on speculation when they say that “mastery of seven forms of the lightsaber” and “perfect weapon” is equivalent to Kenobi-level mastery of Soresu.
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Good point.
Kas’im’s blade-work might be perfect but he isn’t necessarily the most formidable duelist in Star Wars mythos.
It is a good point because it literally invalidates half your argument for Kas’im. Because of it, your statement that “Kas’im’s blade-work might be perfect” is speculation; an in-universe characterization by Bane, hardly an objective statement, called Kas’im “the perfect weapon.” In fact, if you accept that the passage was from Bane’s point of view, then you are conceding arguably your biggest point.
TheOneOfMortis[
This argument again?No that is not Bane’s opinion that is writer stating that as a fact.
LOLOL, the fact that you are aware of this argument, and still deny its validity is hilarious. You are wrong, though. The passage was conveying the mindset of Bane. If you can explain that it is really third-person objective then I will acknowledge that description is “fact.”
Part 2
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Bro, Kas'im is a Sith Lord. By this virtue alone, Sora Bulq is an invalid analogue for the Sith Lord.Sora Bulq's martial skills are noted for the Jedi Order; not Sith Order included.
facepalm
Wtf? This made absolutely no sense. The seven classical lightsaber forms are constant.
I mentioned Sora Bulq to provide an example of an individual who received an objective description very similar to the subjective description provided by Bane. I mentioned Sora Bulq because despite these accolades thrown at him, he was not on the level of Yoda, Mace, Anakin, Dooku, and Obi-Wan.
Command of the Force will make the difference in this scenario; not technical prowess with blade-work alone.
Umm…what? This isn’t even responding to what I posted earlier.
Are you implying that Anakin reached his peak potential during this fight? Also, power unleashed in quick manner during the heat of combat is unlikely to be as potent as power that can be unleashed after being gathered in free time.
No, I am not suggesting that Anakin had reached his peak potential in this fight. That’s obviously not true. I am saying that Obi-Wan matched the TK waves of someone with insanely high Force potential and with raw Force power that Mace Windu said was above his.
I agree with your second point, but want to add that defending against a TK is more difficult during the heat of combat than in “free time.”
If we are to consider exchange of Force powers during the heat of combat;Battling through the halls and corridors, the combatants rounded a corner to bring them in sight of the Rakatan Temple’s only entrance: the wide archway and the small landing beyond, with the wide staircase leading back down to the ground nearly twenty meters below. In the instant it took Kas'im to…
Kas'im responded by using the Force to knock Bane backward, sending him tumbling down the great stone staircase, away from the Blademaster. The fall would have broken his neck-or at least fractured an arm or a leg-if Bane hadn't cocooned himself in the Force. Even so he reached the bottom bruised, battered, and momentarily stunned. (Darth Bane: Path of Destruction)
You see that Darth Bane (who is noticeably ahead of Obi-Wan Kenobi in command of the Force) barely managed to knock Lord Kas'im off-balance with his Force push during the the heat of combat in an effort to disconnect from the latter. However, Lord Kas'im easily overwhelmed such a powerful opponent with his Force push in response. I don't see how Obi-Wan would do better with his relatively weaker command of the Force in same situation. Even if Obi-Wan musters up counter Force push in response; I don't see him overwhelming Lord Kas'im with it.
facepalm
1.) No, at this point of time, you cannot argue that Bane is “noticeably ahead of Obi-Wan Kenobi in command of the Force.” Employing the Force during combat is different than in “free time.” Even then, for all this supposed “command of the Force,” Bane could only knock Kas’im off-balance while the other was appraising the layout. [sarcasm]Wonderful Force command![/sarcasm]
2.) LOL, way to completely twist the situation to fit your own agenda. Kas’im hardly overwhelmed him – it says directly that Bane was “balanced precariously” and on the edge of a staircase. Any normal Force Push would have been just as effective.
3.) Seriously, if Kenobi applied the same degree off TK as he did against Grievous, Bane wouldn’t have even had time to “cocoon himself in the Force” before breaking his neck.
Key term: command of the Force. It influences performance in martial combat as well. Anakin's command of the Force was relatively superior to that of Cin Drallig's by this time.
? You’re basically saying, “Anakin was a better lightsaber duelist than Drallig.” Lightsaber combat involves using the Force as conduit between wielder and weapon.
And once again, you’re not properly answering my last post. I was showing how Bane’s subjective perception of Kas’im doesn’t reveal the level of “mastery” that the Twi’lek reached in each form. All Bane says is that Kas’im was the “greatest” in a time where there were hardly any powerhouses, and was a “perfect weapon” that was incidentally getting owned by Bane until the secret form was revealed. Cin Drallig was Battlemaster of an era that George Lucas himself stated to be the “Golden Age” for lightsaber combat, and also “mastered” all seven forms. Yet, Vader demolished Drallig.
Likewise, Bane’s in-universe characterization of Kas’im as a master of lightsaber combat doesn’t at all mean that Kas’im has the ability to contend with Kenobi.
Understand?
If you are referring to duel between these guys aboard Invisible Hand then I must remind you that Count Dooku's plan involved incapacitating Obi-Wan Kenobi early on (or he made a wise decision by doing so) so that he could focus his attention on Anakin Skywalker. This strategy makes sense since both of the Jedi were expert duelists and challenging them through martial means alone would not be advisable since Count Dooku was already showing signs of aging prior to this event.
You still aren’t answering the actual post. Dooku was the master of Makashi, and he was capable of outsparring Windu. Yet, Dooku had to rely on the Force to get rid of Kenobi because the latter’s bladework was too good.
Because both were similar in the context of command of the Force. None held any noticeable advantage over other except that Obi-Wan was more calculative and wiser.If it were Darth Sidious in place of Darth Vader; Obi-Wan would most likely have ended up dead.
What? Well obviously, Sidious is a better lightsaber duelist than Kenobi.
Circumstances of this battle should be revealed. Raw statements like these are inclined to mislead.
Youtube the fight if you want.
Kas'im is Obi-Wan's superior, bro.Kas'im had trained his entire life for this moment. After years of study, he'd mastered all seven forms of the lightsaber. Then he'd honed his skill for decades, perfecting every move and sequence until he had become the perfect weapon and the greatest living swordsman in the galaxy. (Darth Bane: Path of Destruction)
I already explained how that quote isn’t reliable.
Lord Kas'im not just endured full pressure from Darth Bane head on but even forced the latter to disconnect from him after a very intense clash.
Which speaks badly for Kas’im. Even though he was the “perfect weapon” who spent decades honing his skills and perfecting his moves, he gets owned by Bane, who was at that time by no means spectacular.
Part 3
Seriously, an argument focused solely on speed is a flawed/failed one. It is most likely to mislead since not every author is good at explaining this mechanism in perfect manner.
I was pointing out the failed logic in Mortis’s post. However, an argument mentioning speed is definitely valid.
Check how difficult are Lord Kas'im's training sessions:Soon he was breathing heavily from his exertions. Physically Kas'im's training sessions couldn't measure up to hammering a cortosis vein with a hydraulic jack for hours at a time. But they were far more exhausting in other ways. They demanded intense mental focus, an attention to detail that went far beyond what was visible to the naked eye. True mastery of the blade required a combination of both body and mind.
When two Masters engaged in lightsaber combat, the action happened too quickly for the eye to see or the mind to react. Everything had to be done on instinct; the body had to be trained to move and respond without conscious thought. To accomplish this, Kas'im made his students practice sequences, carefully choreographed series of multiple strikes and parries drawn from their chosen style. The sequences were designed by the Blademaster himself so that each maneuver flowed smoothly into the next, maximizing attack efficiency while minimizing defensive exposure. (Darth Bane: Path of Destruction)
So what? How is this relevant? Jedi and Sith both have difficult training methods. This doesn’t bolster the combat abilities of the featless Kas’im.
And when Lord Kas'im actually faced Darth Bane with the intentions to kill him:Kas'im sighed. "Then your life ends here." And be leapt in, his weapon moving with far more speed than he had ever shown during their practice sessions. (Darth Bane: Path of Destruction)
Perhaps the author was at loss of words on how to describe this level of speed.
However, Darth Bane survived this blitz on the basis of his superior command of the Force (Hint: Command of the Force influences both precognitive abilities and reaction-rate).
facepalm
And here you are mentioning speed even though you just wrote above how it’s a “flawed/failed” line of thought. Hypocritical much?
And LOL…Bane (this is his perspective) just stated that Kas’im attacked him faster than he did during the practice sessions. Well, NO SH1T SHERLOCK! Kas’im is trying to kill him, not teach him a lesson.
A “loss of words” – are you kidding me? facepalm
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Point is that how good is Sora Bulq's command of the Force.
Already addressed the Sora Bulq argument.
Do not forget that Kit Fisto (a master of Form I) also defeated Greivous in a single duel
I suggest you rewatch Fisto vs. Grievous before you start saying misleading statements.
but lost to Ventress. The Jedi Council wisely chose Obi-Wan for this mission. Key difference between Form I and Form III is that the latter Form is also well-suited for lightsaber-to-lightsaber combat.
Even better for Kenobi that he’s the greatest practitioner of a form well-suited for lightsaber-to-lightsaber combat. 👆
Sorry, bro. Your counterarguments are not so well thought out here.
facepalm
Part 4
Originally posted by TheOneOfMortis
Nice post Legend.
Not canon, not interested, pal.
LOL, since your argument completely failed, you now resort to questioning the canon.
That he spent time mastering various forms. Not all of them.
sigh
More powerful Force Users can defeat the more powerful lightsaber practitione rin lightsaber combat, but unfortunately buddy Obi-Wan is not more skilled, or more powerful than Kas'im.Face it dude, Obi-Wan is not even close to upper tier. One of my favorite characters but he was never known for being a great fighterever.
facepalm
You don’t have anything supporting that allegation above. And LOL to Obi-Wan not being a great fighter…
Sure. Just like Matt Serra is > GSP. Just like Gabriel Gonzaga > Cro Cop. People can get caught, it doesn't mean they're not as good, dominating performances beat flash finishes.
If you want to debate Vos vs Bulq in another thread, go right ahead.
There is big difference to fighting multiple people who master each individual style, and fighting a guy who masters all himself.Anderson Silva has defeated elite wrestlers (Chael Sonnen), elite strikers (Vitor Belfort), and elite BJitsukas (Demian Maia) but nobody would try to argue that if you merged all 3 guys into one that he would be able to beat him.
Except this comparison to Kas’im fails because you have to speculate based on Bane’s characterization on just how ‘deep’ the Twi’lek’s mastery is in each form.
Maul was much weaker during cartoon btw, and see Legend's post on this matter.Dooku was figthing both Anakin and Obi-Wan at once, he was nevere one on one with Kenobi.
Against Anakin, Obi-Wan had similar advantage that Bane had against Kas'im, as he trained hours sparring with him and knew his moves perfectly.
I can just repost this again:
What essentially I am demonstrating here is that even individuals considered to be the greatest practitioners of their respective forms (Dooku/Makashi and Anakin/Djem So) were unable to penetrate Kenobi's Soresu defense. Kenobi has displayed the ability to maintain his Soresu bladework against masters of variant forms. Kas'im's "mastery" of all the forms, therefore, doesn't confer him automatic victory.
Grievous achieves great speed through other emans. Nothing states Kenobi was moving as fast, he does not have to move as fast to defend Grievous's strikes.Also you have only posted the speed they were moving at at a singl sentence, You don't know that they weren't moving faster at other times. Grievous wasn't moving at 20sps entie duel, he slowly built up to it.
Even the minimum speed of 12 strikes/second was faster than the 9 >/= strikes/second in Kas’im vs Bane.
Sora did not know 7 he might not have even known more than 3.
Once again:
Moot point. Though I must comment that simply stating that "Kas'im knew 9 forms!!!111 Sora knew like 7. Ergo Kas'im is much better!!!111" is a rather weak rebuttal. Doesn't help your rebuttal is false though.
If I memorise the answers to the test, I have advantage over person who has studied all the textbooks extensively. Hence, Dooku training with masters of all forms is not the same as Bane memorising perfectly all of Kas'im's moves.
So unless you assume that Kas’im has more advanced techniques or techniques unknown to PT/CW masters then this is irrelevant. The point is Obi-Wan is familiar with highest levels of practice of the variant lightsaber forms, and unless evidence (which there is none) suggests Kas’im has mastery of these forms to at least the level of Kenobi’s mastery of Soresu, Kenobi wouldn’t be caught off guard or overwhelmed by Kas’im’s bladework.
Bro, you heavily overestimate Grievous. He has been extremely underpowered in recent media, even a scrub like Kit Fisto was able to beat him recently. Yes he is extremely fats and strong, yes he uses multiple lightsaber and has training in all forms according to you, but he is not a master of those forms or anywhere enar as skilled a martial artist as Kas'im, and he does not have force connetcion and stuffs like precognition. Hence you is comapring apples and pears.
Grievous is a Jedi killer. Jedi, for all their precognition and Force connection, fell to his blade(s). And please, like Legend, I advise you to rewatch Fisto vs Grievous. And how are you assuming Grievous is not as skilled as Kas’im? You can’t- you’re speculating. Grievous defeats Jedi using a mix of both well-placed strikes coming from different lightsaber forms, AND bewildering speed.
Originally posted by TheOneOfMortis
KV, as this is essence of your argument, please prove that Grievous' much quicker, skillfull attack is so much harder than Kas'im's much more skillfull, quick attack.
Actually, YOU have to first show me how Kas’im is “much more skillful” than Grievous. I’ve already described this is in great detail:
Grievous wasn't just unleashing 12/16/18/20 strikes per second quickly. Speed was just one element to them. Mind you, Dooku taught Grievous all the lightsaber forms.Thus, the other facet is that each of those deadly strikes were of different angle, pace, and intensity, and these attacks are basically indicative of multiple lightsaber techniques being employed simueltaneously.
If each of the cyborg's lightsaber used a different style, then it is almost saying that Kenobi fought the attacks of 4 Jedi at once.
Basically, Grievous combined both skill AND speed. As I mentioned before, Kenobi has survived hornet-swarms of blaster fire from all directions. Thus, it is only logical that his defense limit of 20 strikes per second against Grievous was not based on solely speed, but a combination of speed with Grievous's multifaceted attacks.
Prove that the difference in ten sps is not made up for the fact that Kas'im has much more skillfull attack than grievous.
Prove first that Grievous is less skilled than Kas’im.
Also admit please that this is not case of Obi-Wan being more powerful in th Force, and Kas'im's high level mastery of all 9 forms does trumps his high level mastery of just soresu, not the invincible form you make it out to be but a form just like others with weaknesses that can be exploited.
Prove to me objectively that Kas’im even possesses “high level mastery of all 9 forms.”
1. is you saing wookie is canon?
2. I am just stating facts Obi-Wan is not a great fighter, he is never been one of those "overpower" or "Force Gods" that you get in Star Wars, he was no match for the best people at the time like Yoda and Sidious, he is only notable for playing a big part in major piece of history, e was not himself a very great fighter, i.e. one of the best ever.
3. Actually no it is the writer who states that Kas'im has high level mastery of all 9 forms, this was not Bane's opinion.
4. Now you just being silly. As Tzeenth would tell you we go by facts. If we look at the facts, Kas'im has far greater credentials than Grievous when it comes to swordsmanship. Onus is on you chum.
Since when Mastery of all Forms is the deciding factor?
Sidious mastered all Forms. Yet, Windu who mastered only 1 Form defeated him. Yet, Yoda who Mastered only 1 Form had no problem fighting him. Yet, Luke who didn't master a single Form outskilled him.
The same Ka'sim was the one getting out dueled until he switched to Jarkai.
Not to mention Cin Drallig...
Originally posted by Arhael
Since when Mastery of all Forms is the deciding factor?
Sidious mastered all Forms. Yet, Windu who mastered only 1 Form defeated him. Yet, Yoda who Mastered only 1 Form had no problem fighting him. Yet, Luke who didn't master a single Form outskilled him.The same Ka'sim was the one getting out dueled until he switched to Jarkai.
Not to mention Cin Drallig...
👆
Originally posted by -kV-
As I suspected, you are simply going to dodge and repeat yourself. I hope Legend doesn't do the same.Just concede; I don't want to have to call you a fanboy 🙂
Buddy, face it, you have lost, your armies are outnumbered and I hold the high ground. May you be with the Force, because buddy you is going to need it for when Legend whoop yo ass.
I have seen something multiple times on this thread alone, so I intend to correct it: there are only 7 forms of lightsaber combat (classically), if you are counting variations created by individual Jedi/Sith, then just realize that they aren't considered to be official lightsaber combat forms, just a personal twist on pre-existing forms.
Originally posted by TheOneOfMortisGet out. How can you say Obi Wan was not a great fighter then in another thread you say Qui gon is better than Yoda.?!?!!?
1. is you saing wookie is canon?2. I am just stating facts Obi-Wan is not a great fighter, he is never been one of those "overpower" or "Force Gods" that you get in Star Wars, he was no match for the best people at the time like Yoda and Sidious, he is only notable for playing a big part in major piece of history, e was not himself a very great fighter, i.e. one of the best ever.
3. Actually no it is the writer who states that Kas'im has high level mastery of all 9 forms, this was not Bane's opinion.
4. Now you just being silly. As Tzeenth would tell you we go by facts. If we look at the facts, Kas'im has far greater credentials than Grievous when it comes to swordsmanship. Onus is on you chum.