Originally posted by Mr MasterThen you should have accepted the scan posted earlier that revealed Nemesis didn't actually destroy the Ultraverse and 616 Universe. That she washed the Ultraverse over with "creative energy," forced the heroes to watch her create an America-sized universe, promptly lose control over it, and retreat to Ultraverse's Earth to try again:
Anyway friend,
I see and read this happening like Nemesis obliterating the Ultraverse and 616 in the prior scans,
I'll be adding the Handbook corroboration in a sec.So, unless I see with my own eyes this retcon or dismissal of the posted feats above,
I can't accept anything else but what I see/read.
I mean, when you stop reading a story halfway through without seeing how it actually concludes, you can assume a whole bunch of things. But I'm not going to enter an argument over COIE Anti-Monitor and argue that COIE Anti-Monitor successfully ended all life (his goal) at the climax of Crisis on Infinite Earths #10, whilst ignoring that in the very next issue it was revealed that Spectre fought him enough to salvage a creation event. Which ostensibly means... he didn't succeed in his goal, despite what the end of issue #10 explicitly stated.
Originally posted by Mr MasterYou need to read more comics, or you need to stop ignoring the comics that shows alternate Crimson Cosmos existing across the Multiverse. Hell, current Juggernaut had to seek favor from an alternate Cytorrak to regain his powers just recently in the pages of Thunderbolts.
Juggs was banished to the Crimson Cosmos sometime ago during this time.The Crimson Cosmos is neither in the Ultraverse Multiverse, nor is it withIN 616,
it's in its own Space between realities.
If you're trying to foment a myth that the 616 universe is a multiverse, then you should do it properly and understand that it is a multiverse in that it contains several dimensional planes: Asgard, Negative Zone, Microverse, Crimson Cosmos, etc. And each of these dimensional planes has their alternate versions throughout the Marvel Multiverse. My proof is comics. What with alternate versions of Thor, Annihilus, Psycho Man, Cytorak, etc. running around.
Originally posted by SundippedThat final Nemesis battle occurred on the Ultraverse Earth. And the recreation of the Ultraverse was all that occurred in the finale. I know the combined Infinity Gems are a universal power. Never argued otherwise. But the only thing that happened to the 616 Universe, was the heroes returning and Night Man being stuck there; the so-called "shockwave of the new" that supposedly descended upon 616. Despite what you tried to project onto that scan you posted.
Nothing turrible about "[b]NO ONE is untouched by the shockwave of the new". Even 616, "the world of Marvels."http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/15958099/Nemesis_gemas_25_zps529b415a.jpg.html[/B]
That's pretty turrible. So was Loki w/ IG being unable to penetrate Grandmaster's mind in that fiasco. And so is Nemesis. An IG + Ego Gem being. And somebody that pretty much has nothing to do with this thread. Thanos doesn't get the Ego Gem here. And if he did, it'd probably compromise his power to the point of being Ebony Blade'd into comics obscurity.
Nuff said.
Originally posted by ODG
That final Nemesis battle occurred on the Ultraverse Earth. And the recreation of the Ultraverse was all that occurred in the finale. I know the combined Infinity Gems are a universal power. Never argued otherwise. But the only thing that happened to the 616 Universe, was the heroes returning and Night Man being stuck there; the so-called "shockwave of the new" that supposedly descended upon 616. Despite what you tried to project onto that scan you posted.That's pretty turrible. So was Loki w/ IG being unable to penetrate Grandmaster's mind in that fiasco. And so is Nemesis. An IG + Ego Gem being. And somebody that pretty much has nothing to do with this thread. Thanos doesn't get the Ego Gem here. And if he did, it'd probably compromise his power to the point of being Ebony Blade'd into comics obscurity.
Nuff said.
Not only did it recreate the Ultraverse, but the wave initially erased the Ultraverse leaving a void, then recreated the Ultraforce team and the Avengers. Complete with a mind wipe for the 616 members who had holes in their memories afterwards. This was only ONE WAVE OF REMNANT ENERGY FROM ONLY 4 GEMS. You can continue to downplay this all you want but the fact remains that this was far from what you would describe as......"turrible".
LOL at you "conveniently" omitting the fact that Loki was unable to affect Grandmaster because of this:
Anyway, LordofMurder brought up Nemesis but there's nothing wrong with elaborating on what the gems did. Of course Thanos wouldn't need the ego gem, especially considering even a noob with the IG in Nebula was able to no sell a non holding back, MERGED blast from Galactus/2Celestials/Stranger/Eon/Death/Kronos/Master Order/Lord Chaos/Mistress Love and Master Hate. I really don't see anything AM could accomplish here.
Originally posted by SundippedI don't understand the "4 GEMS" bit. Are you confusing the Avengers/Ultraforce event with the Black September event? Because Nemesis was always the conglomerated 6 Infinity Gems + the Ego Gem. And nobody ever discounted the Infinity Gems as being universal in scope. But Nemesis creating an America-sized universe and then being discorporated by an Ebony Blade one-shot is pretty turrible.
Not only did it recreate the Ultraverse, but the wave initially erased the Ultraverse leaving a void, then recreated the Ultraforce team and the Avengers. Complete with a mind wipe for the 616 members who had holes in their memories afterwards. This was only [b]ONE WAVE OF REMNANT ENERGY FROM ONLY 4 GEMS. You can continue to downplay this all you want but the fact remains that this was far from what you would describe as......"turrible".[/b]
Originally posted by SundippedWhy would that scene in any way help your argument? Just shows that possession of the Mind Gem can apparently make you immune to the full Infinity Gauntlet. That's turrible.
LOL at you "conveniently" omitting the fact that Loki was unable to affect Grandmaster because of this:Anyway, LordofMurder brought up Nemesis but there's nothing wrong with elaborating on what the gems did. Of course Thanos wouldn't need the ego gem, especially considering even a noob with the IG in Nebula was able to no sell a non holding back, [b]MERGED
blast from Galactus/2Celestials/Stranger/Eon/Death/Kronos/Master Order/Lord Chaos/Mistress Love and Master Hate. I really don't see anything AM could accomplish here. [/B]
Elaborating about Nemesis detracts from the IG's power and scope. It'd be like AM fans bringing up Sinestro Corps Anti-Monitor for the same pointless boomerang effect back in their face.
Originally posted by ODGThen you should have accepted the scan posted earlier that
revealed Nemesis didn't actually destroy the Ultraverse and 616
Universe. That she washed the Ultraverse over with "creative
energy," forced the heroes to watch her create an America-sized
universe, promptly lose control over it, and retreat to Ultraverse's
Earth to try again:http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo326/OneDumbG0/Random/Nemesis01.jpg
Nemesis obliterated the Ultraverse Reality & the 616 Reality.
Nemesis then created the "america sized" universe
with remnants of both universeS.
Nemesis apparently either did not destroy the Godwheel or recreated it,
same goes for that single Planet, Earth-93060.
But No where is it stated that the multi-universal obliteration
stated by the Writer and drawn in action by the artist was added for kicks.
There's also no allusion to it being an illusion on Nemesis' part.
In fact, there's no direct explanation of any kind that dismisses the feat.
What we do know, is that the New-Alternate "america sized" Reality
Nemesis created was the result of "Two wildly different Continuums"
Heck, this story is subsequent to the destruction of the Two UniverseS,
Yet,
it begins Ten years in the Past, and then jumps to the Now almost half the book in,
and all through out Reality was the "america sized" universe,
until the "Feedback" took place which made a stunned Nemesis teleport to the only planet there.
Originally posted by ODGI mean, when you stop reading a story halfway through without
seeing how it actually concludes, you can assume a whole bunch of
things. But I'm not going to enter an argument over COIE Anti-
Monitor and argue that COIE Anti-Monitor successfully ended all life
(his goal) at the climax of Crisis on Infinite Earths #10,
whilst ignoring that in the very next issue it was revealed that
Spectre fought him enough to salvage a creation event. Which
ostensibly means... he didn't succeed in his goal, despite what the
end of issue #10 explicitly stated.
Originally posted by ODGIf you're trying to foment a myth that the 616 universe is a
multiverse, then you should do it properly and understand that it is
a multiverse in that it contains several dimensional planes: Asgard,
Negative Zone, Microverse, Crimson Cosmos, etc. And each of
these dimensional planes has their alternate versions throughout
the Marvel Multiverse.My proof is comics.
What with alternate versions of Thor, Annihilus, Psycho Man,
Cytorak, etc. running around. That final Nemesis battle occurred
on the Ultraverse Earth. And the recreation of the Ultraverse was
all that occurred in the finale. I know the combined Infinity Gems
are a universal power. Never argued otherwise. But the only
thing that happened to the 616 Universe, was the heroes returning
and Night Man being stuck there; the so-called shockwave of
the new that supposedly descended upon 616. Despite what
you tried to project onto that scan you posted.
Especially since the Microverse is an entire Alternate Parallel Universe,
and the Negative Zone is also a completely separate Universe outside 616,
and Asgard, like all pocket-dimensions are likewise located outside 616,
this is why one needs inter-dimensional portals/vortex/gateways to get there.
That aside, as for Nemesis only affecting the Ultraverse, I completely disagree.
Especially since Nemesis' tampering with Reality merged
the infinite UniverseS from the Prime Multiverse and the infinite
UniverseS from the Malibu Multiverse ...
... so in the end, that had to get fixed,
and the only power I remember making Everything New again was Nemesis'.
(in this scan, we see the writer and the artist giving us the indication that 616 was warped)
"No One is untouched by the shockwave"
"This is the World of Marvels" ... "It bears the mark of the Tide"
-----------------------------------------------
^^^ Beautiful, it's clearly noted artistically at the top of the scan that Reality is warping!
Originally posted by ODG
I don't understand the "4 GEMS" bit. Are you confusing the Avengers/Ultraforce event with the Black September event? Because Nemesis was always the conglomerated 6 Infinity Gems + the Ego Gem. And nobody ever discounted the Infinity Gems as being universal in scope. But Nemesis creating an America-sized universe and then being discorporated by an Ebony Blade one-shot is pretty turrible. Why would that scene in any way help your argument? Just shows that possession of the Mind Gem can apparently make you immune to the full Infinity Gauntlet. That's turrible.
The Black September event was the followup one shot to Avengers/Ultraforce. You continue to purposely ignore the plot induced inner conflict between the gems in favor of lowballing (who cares about a replica U.S sized universe?), meanwhile not accrediting what was happening in the aftermath. The cognizant time and reality gems REBELLED AND WERE DEPOWERED by the other gems. The gems then split upon being hit by the blade and waves started to emit, crashing the continuum.
With the reality and time gem reunited with Amber as host, they return to the nanosecond after the first wave (erase/creation event wave) and absorb the "remainder of the Nemesis energy" waves.
Only the space, mind, soul, and power gems were responsible for the waves of energy. The time and reality gems are removed and on Amber's person in the above scan after traveling back in time to the scene, and depowered/cast out at the actual time of the split below.
You were so quick to condemn the effectiveness of the gems all while failing to mention Grandmasters immunity being the reason for the negation. Was that intentional? Good to see you throwing that scene out now 👆, because that is in no way a bad showing, nor is it relevant.
Originally posted by ODG
Elaboriating about Nemesis detracts from the IG's power and scope. It'd be like AM fans bringing up Sinestro Corps Anti-Monitor for the same pointless boomerang effect back in their face.
In fact it's the opposite once you take into account what only the remaining energy from 4 gems were doing. The AM analogy was crappy. At least Nemesis rewrote the Ultraverse causing changes in a way similar to events in COIE. SC AM got wrecked by trans level Prime.
Originally posted by Mr MasterIn the beginning of Ultraforce/Avengers. When the character, Contrary, recaps what happened.
Where are you reading that Nemesis did not obliterate the Two UniverseS,
even though it actually did take place on panel
presented via narrative statements coupled with artistic depictions.
Originally posted by Mr MasterThe Ultraverse and 616 universe were still there. In fact, the Ultraverse Earth is where everyone gets shunted to when Nemesis' America-sized universe blows up along with the Godwheel (which is where they all were).
Nemesis obliterated the Ultraverse Reality & the 616 Reality.
Nemesis then created the "america sized" universe
with remnants of both universeS.
Nemesis apparently either did not destroy the Godwheel or recreated it,
same goes for that single Planet, Earth-93060.
Originally posted by Mr MasterExcept Contrary's firsthand account of the whole thing and the fact that the Ultraverse Earth was there for everyone to conveniently be thrown to once the America-sized universe and Godwheel are destroyed.
But No where is it stated that the multi-universal obliteration
stated by the Writer and drawn in action by the artist was added for kicks.
There's also no allusion to it being an illusion on Nemesis' part.
In fact, there's no direct explanation of any kind that dismisses the feat.
Originally posted by Mr MasterContrary to what isolated instances you can find suggesting so, there isn't single Microverse, because there are multiple versions of characters from the Microverse that show up in comics. Like Psycho Man. Same with the Negative Zone. There have been more than plenty of alternate Negative Zones and Annihilus's such as the Ultimate Universe one or the What If... Annihilation Reached Earth?. And there have been even more alternate reality Thors and Asgards over the past 50 years. You know this. And I am not going to waste my breath patronizing you and pretending that I need to convince you so. Each one of these pocket realms/universes/realities/dimensions/whatever-you-wanna-call-its are part of each ### Universe designate. Hence why you can justify calling the 616 Universe a multiverse in and of itself.
Especially since the Microverse is an entire Alternate Parallel Universe,
and the Negative Zone is also a completely separate Universe outside 616,
and Asgard, like all pocket-dimensions are likewise located outside 616,
this is why one needs inter-dimensional portals/vortex/gateways to get there.
Originally posted by Mr MasterI already went over this with Sundipped. What " touched" the 616 Universe was Night Man being stranded there. That was it. That was the "tide's mark" as you obviously see Night Man standing there like a tool right underneath the caption you're ogling. That and the Avengers being returned. Obviously that doesn't amount to much of anything (especially since Night Man never did anything after being introduced there) and it belies such flowery purple prose. But it is what it is.
(in this scan, we see the writer and the artist giving us the indication that 616 was warped)http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/15990056/Nem2.jpg.html
"[b]No One is untouched
by the shockwave""This is the World of Marvels" ... "It bears the mark of the Tide"[/b]
Originally posted by SundippedSo what? That doesn't change anything. I still don't know why you're bringing this up. Nobody denied that the Infinity Gems are universal and can create waves of reality to wash over the Ultraverse.
The Black September event was the followup one shot to Avengers/Ultraforce. You continue to purposely ignore the plot induced inner conflict between the gems in favor of lowballing (who cares about a replica U.S sized universe?), meanwhile not accrediting what was happening in the aftermath. The cognizant time and reality gems REBELLED AND WERE DEPOWERED by the other gems. The gems then split upon being hit by the blade and waves started to emit, crashing the continuum.With the reality and time gem reunited with Amber as host, they return to the nanosecond after the first wave (erase/creation event wave) and absorb the "remainder of the Nemesis energy" waves.
Only the space, mind, soul, and power gems were responsible for the waves of energy. The time and reality gems are removed and on Amber's person in the above scan after traveling back in time to the scene, and depowered/cast out at the actual time of the split below.
Originally posted by SundippedNo. I brought up Grandmster being immune to Loki w/IG ages ago in past debates and have discussed it plenty of times. The context doesn't salvage how pathetic that showing is for the full IG. Having held onto the Mind Gem shouldn't make you immune to the entire functional Infinity Gauntlet. That's ridiculous. And it completely undermines the mantle of supremacy the IG is supposed to grant. IT'S A TURRIBLE SHOWING.
You were so quick to condemn the effectiveness of the gems all while failing to mention Grandmasters immunity being the reason for the negation. Was that intentional? Good to see you throwing that scene out now 👆, because that is in no way a bad showing, nor is it relevant.
Originally posted by SundippedThe only thing that the 4 Gems were doing there was creating creating multiple waves of reality to wash over the Malibu Universe and altering it each time it did. Nothing more, nothing less. I never denied that the Infinity Gems possess universal power.
In fact it's the opposite once you take into account what only the remaining energy from 4 gems were doing. The AM analogy was crappy. At least Nemesis rewrote the Ultraverse causing changes in a way similar to events in COIE. SC AM got wrecked by trans level Prime.
Originally posted by ODG
Having held onto the Mind Gem shouldn't make you immune to the
entire functional Infinity Gauntlet.
Originally posted by ODGIn the beginning of Ultraforce/Avengers. When the
character, Contrary, recaps what happened. The Ultraverse and
616 universe were still there. In fact, the Ultraverse Earth is where
everyone gets shunted to when Nemesis' America-sized universe
blows up along with the Godwheel (which is where they all were).
Except Contrary's firsthand account of the whole thing and the fact
that the Ultraverse Earth was there for everyone to conveniently be
thrown to once the America-sized universe and Godwheel are
destroyed. Contrary to what isolated instances you can find
suggesting so, there isn't single Microverse, because there are
multiple versions of characters from the Microverse that show up in
comics. Like Psycho Man. Same with the Negative Zone. There
have been more than plenty of alternate Negative Zones and
Annihilus's such as the Ultimate Universe one or the What If...
Annihilation Reached Earth?. And there have been even more
alternate reality Thors and Asgards over the past 50 years. You
know this. And I am not going to waste my breath patronizing you
and pretending that I need to convince you so. Each one of these
pocket realms/universes/realities/dimensions/whatever-you-
wanna-call-its are part of each ### Universe designate. Hence
why you can justify calling the 616 Universe a multiverse in and of
itself. I already went over this with Sundipped. What " touched"
the 616 Universe was Night Man being stranded there. That was it.
That was the "tide's mark" as you obviously see Night Man standing
there like a tool right underneath the caption you're ogling. That
and the Avengers being returned. Obviously that doesn't amount to
much of anything (especially since Night Man never did anything
after being introduced there) and it belies such flowery purple
prose. But it is what it is.
In fact ... Handbooks agree with my interpretation just fine.
Official Bio of the Infinity Gauntlet (sorry, too lazy to crop from the handbook)
http://marvel.com/universe/Infinity_Gems
"In that Other Multiverse" (Malibu) "reunited a Seventh Gem ...
Nemesis' consciousness, who wreaked havoc IN both Dimensions."
------------------------------------------------------
Also, let me know if you need overwhelming proof that the Microverse,
and the Negative Zone and full blown Alternate Parallel UniverseS Outside 616.
If you need proof that Asgard and the Crimson Cosmos (Pocket-dimensions)
are also Outside 616, let me know.
I don't care if there are "alternate" versions of such,
that doesn't mean they're stuck withIN already existing universes.
Yes, there are "alternates" Asgards and so on, but they're all located
outside their parent reality withIN their own space but still withIN the Multiverse.
Again, it's logically why you need "inter-dimensional" transport to get there.
Like, the "Rainbow Bridge" goes,
and Asgard can't be reached by simply flying really far.
"flowery purple prose?" ... iyo ... imo, the page shows reality in 616 being affected:
Unless that artistic depiction of reality jarring, and buildings morphing into place
was all just to place Night Man in 616.
Just like Jean had to manipulate a universe just to change Scott's mind. 😏
I don't think you'll agree with that, I know I don't!
Originally posted by Mr MasterThat's what I meant. Sorry for the confusion.
Grandmaster wasn't immune to the entire IG due to the Mind Gem,
only its "mental" attacks.
Originally posted by Mr MasterYou can keep ignoring the on-panel character exposition that Contrary provided. I won't. Handbooks are meaningless. Nemesis never destroyed the 616 Universe. She emitted a conflagration of creative energies and created an America-sized universe inside the existing Ultraverse. That laughable construct ended up being unstable and blew up, causing enough feedback to destroy the Godwheel that floats around in space. Nemesis then teleported to Ultraverse Earth. If she had destroyed the Ultraverse initially, there would be no Godwheel (there was), no Ultraverse Earth to go to (there was), and no heroes in her thrall to watch her do all this (there were). Simple as that.
I disagree. No where On Panel, or in Handbooks, is it even suggested or hinted, that the Two UniverseS (616 & Ultraverse)
which were artistically illustrated and explained via writer narration Obliterated,
were instead, not destroyed.
Now, go you can try and pin Contrary's monologue to said fallacy,
but until you find an on panel acccount that actually dismisses the feat,
I think I'll stick to what happened On Panel and was corroborated in the official IG bio.
Furthermore, Contrary notes that she fears Nemesis would go on to destroy the Ultraverse Earth to create a new reality. Which ostensibly means she never destroyed the Ultraverse universe in the first place:
The real kicker, Nemesis' internal conflict further confirms that she never wiped clean the Ultraverse and 616 Universe to create her America-sized universe. Had she done everything you argue she did (wipe everything clean and start anew), why is she so angry that she isn't fulfilling her explicit function: "She is supposed to find a blank canvas to paint her dreams of worlds on -- not paint over an existing work of creation.":
Unfortunately, that's all she was doing. Making a makeshift America-sized universe within the Ultraverse universe... and then failing in her endeavor. Which is why she is so pissed off in that scene. In the end, her destruction did end up warping the Ultraverse. And ended up stranding Night Man in the 616 Universe.
Originally posted by Mr MasterAll I need to do is point out the obvious evidence that you are categorically denying exists: Earth X's Microverse which is part of the 9997 Universe, and What If... Annihilation Reached Earth?'s Negative Zone which is part of 14206 Universe. These are dimensions that are affixed to their respective universe designations in alternate realities.
Also, let me know if you need overwhelming proof that the Microverse,
and the Negative Zone and full blown Alternate Parallel UniverseS Outside 616.
Ignore this at your own convenience. Because that's really all there is to it.
Originally posted by Mr MasterOdin didn't need to teleport Surtur's energies into the hypothetical "961" Universe where the Asgardian realm lies. Magik and Colossus didn't need to travel to the "23458" Universe to confront Cytorrak about his curse. They just needed to travel beyond the normal boundaries of time/space and reach those respective dimensions. Which are part of the 616 Universe.
If you need proof that Asgard and the Crimson Cosmos (Pocket-dimensions)
are also Outside 616, let me know.
I don't care if there are "alternate" versions of such,
that doesn't mean they're stuck withIN already existing universes.
Yes, there are "alternates" Asgards and so on, but they're all located
outside their parent reality withIN their own space but still withIN the Multiverse.
Again, it's logically why you need "inter-dimensional" transport to get there.
Like, the "Rainbow Bridge" goes,
and Asgard can't be reached by simply flying really far.
Originally posted by Mr MasterHow many times am I supposed to explain that the only thing that changed in 616 Universe was Nightshade being left there and the Avengers being returned? Once more, it seems.
"flowery purple prose?" ... iyo ... imo, the page shows reality in 616 being affected:http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/15993708/Nem3.jpg.html
Unless that artistic depiction of reality jarring, and buildings morphing into place
was all just to place Night Man in 616.
Just like Jean had to manipulate a universe just to change Scott's mind. 😏I don't think you'll agree with that, I know I don't!
Originally posted by ODGThat's what I meant. Sorry for the confusion. You can keep
ignoring the on-panel character exposition that Contrary provided.
I won't. Handbooks are meaningless. Nemesis never destroyed
the 616 Universe. She emitted a conflagration of creative energies
and created an America-sized universe inside the existing
Ultraverse. That laughable construct ended up being unstable and
blew up, causing enough feedback to destroy the Godwheel that
floats around in space. Nemesis then teleported to Ultraverse
Earth. If she had destroyed the Ultraverse initially, there would be
no Godwheel (there was), no Ultraverse Earth to go to (there was),
and no heroes in her thrall to watch her do all this (there were).
Simple as that.
Furthermore, Contrary notes that she fears Nemesis would go on to
destroy the Ultraverse Earth to create a new reality. Which
ostensibly means she never destroyed the Ultraverse universe in
the first place
3 Separate bios (Infinity Gauntlet, Nemesis and Ultraforce)
all referenced both 616 and the Ultraverse being affected
when Nemesis let off that creation blast that's depicted on panel
stomping Two UniverseS.
I also agree with you that the Godwheel & Ultra-Earth being there confuses the scene.
Which brings me to my final & New point concerning this part of the story:
Nemesis obliterated and recreated both UniverseS!
On Panel Obliteration of Two entire UniverseS:
On Panel Re-Creation of the Two obliterated entire UniverseS:
(thanx ODG, if it wasn't for this little discussion, I wouldn't have realized this)
Now it makes sense why the Godwheel and Ultra-Earth was there. 👆
Then Nemesis built that "america sized" reality withIN the re-created Ultraverse,
then Topaz and Loki touched (Two characters from Two separate MultiverseS)
and that caused a "Feedback" that collapsed the "america sized" reality
and destroyed the Godwheel,
then Nemesis teleported to Ultra-Earth with the Heroes.
Then Nemesis continued to "tinkering with reality" and this cause "All the Walls to crash down" forcing All Realities
in the Malibu Multiverse and All the UniverseS in the Prime Multiverse to merge.
*** Then Nemesis after killing a few,
one-shot Every Alternate version of Ultraforce and Avenger there is. ***
-------------------------------------
This means All UniverseS withIN the Prime and Malibu MultiverseS were a mess.
In the end,
that all got fixed in Nemesis' final energy release at the splitting of the crown.
Awesome feat!
Originally posted by ODGThe real kicker, Nemesis' internal conflict further confirms that
she never wiped clean the Ultraverse and 616 Universe to create
her America-sized universe. Had she done everything you argue
she did (wipe everything clean and start anew), why is she so
angry that she isn't fulfilling her explicit function: "She is
supposed to find a blank canvas to paint her dreams of worlds on --
not paint over an existing work of creation."
Nemesis is doing this improperly due to Plot. (the sentient Gems confusing her)
Originally posted by ODGAll I need to do is point out the obvious evidence that you are
categorically denying exists: Earth X's Microverse which is
part of the 9997 Universe, and What If... Annihilation Reached
Earth?s Negative Zone which is part of 14206 Universe. These
are dimensions that are affixed to their respective universe
designations in alternate realities.
Ignore this at your own convenience. Because that's really all
there is to it. Odin didn't need to teleport Surtur's energies into the
hypothetical "961" Universe where the Asgardian realm lies. Magik
and Colossus didn't need to travel to the "23458" Universe to
confront Cytorrak about his curse. They just needed to travel
beyond the normal boundaries of time/space and reach those
respective dimensions. Which are part of the 616 Universe. How
many times am I supposed to explain that the only thing that
changed in 616 Universe was Nightshade being left there and the
Avengers being returned? Once more, it seems.
Asgard is not only Outside 616, but it is Far Beyond 616! (on panel/handbooks)
Let me know friend. ... oh, and I disagree on your Night Man position.
---------------------------------------------
You guys can continue to trade jabs about this but whatever you want to believe (for your various reasons), pales in comparison powerwise to only 4 gems completely erasing then recreating the entire Ultraverse with ONLY ONE WAVE of energy. Then subsequent waves were not only warping the realities of the Ultraverse, but if allowed to persist, would destroy these realities as well. That was evidenced in the particular reality that the time gem traveled to after the split. I agree with Mr.M about the wave reaching 616 (illustration dictates it) albeit it seemed to appear to be less in intensity.
Now even though you 2 may be on opposite ends about this, that cannot be denied. One things for sure......if only 4 gems can do that, then the totality of Nemesis (without the gems bickering) shouldn't have any problems obliterating/erasing/recreating/warping etc. whatever, whenever she felt like it.
@ODG
You may designate what Loki tried to do to Grandmaster as a bad IG showing but you have to remember that the plot was designed to have Loki win out in the end anyway by having beat Grandmaster at his game to obtain the ego gem which is what he was probing for to begin with. When you factor that in with the immunity, it's not as bad as it seems.
Originally posted by Mr MasterWhy would you need a character statement beyond the ones that reveal the Godwheel, Ultraverse Earth and all those heroes were alive watching Nemesis do her thing? Don't be so obtuse.
I already highlighted that myself. No where in the scan does it state that Nemesis did not destroy Two Universes.
I understand your point, I really do,
but it does not reflect the dismissal of the feat.3 Separate bios (Infinity Gauntlet, Nemesis and Ultraforce)
all referenced both 616 and the Ultraverse being affected
when Nemesis let off that creation blast that's depicted on panel
stomping Two UniverseS.
Handbooks are worthless. I'm sure you love the handbook that confirms Maelstrom was beyond Thanos w/IG and THOTU absorbed a universe. Don't bring up handbooks again.
Originally posted by Mr MasterIt doesn't confuse it. It just reveals what really happened.
I also agree with you that the Godwheel & Ultra-Earth being there confuses the scene.
Originally posted by Mr MasterFirstly, don't be absurd. Why would she need to blow everything up and then restore everything exactly the way it was just to make her America-sized universe? Do you have any idea how absurd that sounds? Secondly, that second scan is her creating that sh1tty America-sized universe. You know this because you see her make a barren mountainous landscape and the very next scene cuts to those barren mountains in Nevada in that America-sized universe where the fake characters play their adventure out:
Which brings me to my final & New point concerning this part of the story:Nemesis obliterated and recreated both UniverseS!
On Panel Obliteration of Two entire UniverseS:
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/15952199/Nem1.jpg.html
On Panel Re-Creation of the Two obliterated entire UniverseS:
Creating a barren mountainous landscape =/= recreating two entire universes. Especially when that landscape is explicitly part of the phail America-sized universe. At least we're making progress though by confronting the very scenes that torpedo your interpretation.
Originally posted by Mr MasterScan explicitly says Nemesis is upset that she is only painting over existing works of creation. That she was SUPPOSED to be painting on a blank canvas. If she wasn't painting over a blank canvas, she never destroyed the universes. Simple:
Yea, scan doesn't say much for your point imo.
It's just pointing out how Nemesis is trying to create something out of something,
and that's not how it's supposed to work.
You also ignored the other scan where Contrary mentions that she fears Nemesis would destroy the Ultraverse Earth: http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo326/OneDumbG0/Random/Nemesis03.jpg Are you going to suggest that she actually meant she feared it would be destroyed "again"? No, I don't think you would.
Originally posted by Mr MasterOnly thing I need you to do is accept that I've read a considerable number of comics. A number that rivals if not outnumbers your's. I know exactly what anecdotal evidence you'd rely on and its relative paucity. And it doesn't override the conclusive evidence that shows that the Microverse, Negative Zone, Crimson Cosmos and Asgard dimension are all affixed to the 616 Universe. 1) Because Bug, Annihilus, Cytorrak and Thor always mess around in the 616 universe. 2) Because we see alternate versions of these realms and their characters affixed to their respective alternate realities like Earth X, like What If... Annihilation Reached Earth?, like Exiles, etc.
Anyway, so let me know if you need that evidence.
I gots lots of it concerning this matter.
It's been debated before. I dug deep.
It is what it is. Thor was not born in some alternate universe called "Earth 123562" just because you want Asgard to be its own separate parallel universe. The notion is just daft.
Originally posted by SundippedThe Infinity Gems are indeed universal. Nobody ever denied that.
You guys can continue to trade jabs about this but whatever you want to believe (for your various reasons), pales in comparison powerwise to only 4 gems completely erasing then recreating the entire Ultraverse with [b]ONLY ONE WAVE of energy. Then subsequent waves were not only warping the realities of the Ultraverse, but if allowed to persist, would destroy these realities as well. That was evidenced in the particular reality that the time gem traveled to after the split. I agree with Mr.M about the wave reaching 616 (illustration dictates it) albeit it seemed to appear to be less in intensity.Now even though you 2 may be on opposite ends about this, that cannot be denied. One things for sure......if only 4 gems can do that, then the totality of Nemesis (without the gems bickering) shouldn't have any problems obliterating/erasing/recreating/warping etc. whatever, whenever she felt like it.[/b]
Originally posted by SundippedOf course it was due to plot. But the mantle of supremacy the full IG is supposed to grant shouldn't have been compromised by a single Infinity Gem. And it wasn't even that, it was one's PAST POSSESSION of a single Infinity Gem. What Grandmaster did is as stupid as if Thanos attacked Gardener and tried to BFR him into the past and failed because of some random immunity gained from his possession of the Time Gem. In no way should that have happened. It was absurd.
@ODG
You may designate what Loki tried to do to Grandmaster as a bad IG showing but you have to remember that the plot was designed to have Loki win out in the end anyway by having beat Grandmaster at his game to obtain the ego gem which is what he was probing for to begin with. When you factor that in with the immunity, it's not as bad as it seems.
^^ Still disagree with your other points.
Originally posted by ODG
Only thing I need you to do is accept that I've read a considerable
number of comics. A number that rivals if not outnumbers your's. I
know exactly what anecdotal evidence you'd rely on and its relative
paucity. And it doesn't override the conclusive evidence that shows
that the Microverse, Negative Zone, Crimson Cosmos and Asgard
dimension are all affixed to the 616 Universe. 1) Because Bug,
Annihilus, Cytorrak and Thor always mess around in the 616 universe.
2) Because we see alternate versions of these realms and their
characters affixed to their respective alternate realities like Earth
X, like What If... Annihilation Reached Earth?, like Exiles, etc.It is what it is. Thor was not born in some alternate universe called
"Earth 123562" just because you want Asgard to be its own separate
parallel universe. The notion is just daft.
I have the scans, (on panel/handbooks)
while I know you don't have a single scan that states,
either Asgard, the Microverse or the Crimson Cosmos are withIN 616.
As for the Negative Zone, (aside from massive proof for that as well)
you should recall a not to distant arc called "Annihilation" ...
.... yea, it consisted of Two separate UniverseS (616 and the Negative Zone)
In fact, the Negative Zone is an "Anti-Matter Universe" ...
... it dares Not make any kinda contact with 616, let alone exist withIN it. 😂
🙂
i don't think he's saying it exists within the universe that captain america exists in. i've used the analogy in the past as a possible idea (not unsupported) for some planes of existence. i do THINK he's saying the same thing i've said for a long time now--all those dimensions (micro, negative, asgard et. al.,) are part of a larger yet connected....unit of some sort. i call it 616 eternity. were i to reference dormammu, i would reference him as 616 dormammu to indicate which dormmy in the multiverse i was talking about. obviously i think eternity 616 compromises more than just captain america's universe--it incorporates all these other dimensions that ALSO (coincidentally?) manifest when an alternate version of eternity is shown to exist. you already know very well the scans that support that idea but you don't interpret them that way for some reason. i have no idea if odg agrees with my 616 eternity point, but i think he's essentially echoing the same thoughts i've been espousing for a long time now--these different dimensions/zones/universes/etc., are all part of the larger prime marvel universe, and all would be designated as 616 versions of said places.
