Thanos with the Infinity Gauntlet vs Dawn of Time Anti-Monitor...

Originally posted by ODG

Why would you need a character statement beyond the ones
that reveal the Godwheel, Ultraverse Earth and all those heroes
were alive watching Nemesis do her thing? Don't be so obtuse.
Handbooks are worthless. I'm sure you love the handbook that
confirms Maelstrom was beyond Thanos w/IG and THOTU absorbed
a universe. Don't bring up handbooks again. It doesn't confuse it.
It just reveals what really happened. Firstly, don't be absurd. Why
would she need to blow everything up and then restore everything
exactly the way it was just to make her America-sized universe?
Do you have any idea how absurd that sounds? Secondly, that
second scan is her creating that sh1tty America-sized universe.
You know this because you see her make a barren mountainous
landscape and the very next scene cuts to those barren mountains
in Nevada in that America-sized universe where the fake characters
play their adventure out:
Creating a barren mountainous landscape =/= recreating two entire
universes. Especially when that landscape is explicitly part of the
phail America-sized universe. At least we're making progress
though by confronting the very scenes that torpedo your
interpretation. Scan explicitly says Nemesis is upset that she is
only painting over existing works of creation. That she was
SUPPOSED to be painting on a blank canvas. If she wasn't painting
over a blank canvas, she never destroyed the universes. Simple:
You also ignored the other scan where Contrary mentions that she
fears Nemesis would destroy the Ultraverse Earth:
Are you going to suggest that she actually meant she feared it
would be destroyed "again"? No, I don't think you would.

It's the Writer's narration:

This isn't the writer making a character "think" he's seeing something,
or making a character talk out of his/her ass ... No! .. it's what happened,
what was noted in 3 official Handbooks (Nemesis-Infinity Gauntlet-Ultraforce)

Handbooks are "worthless" if they contradict on panel showings,
so don't give me that "Maelstrom" nonsense please.
I SEE with my own eyes, and READ it likewise, Nemesis Obliterated Two UniverseS!
Nothing on panel or in any bio disputes this as an error, or illusion or whatever else you believe it was.

Herdling writes: "Nemesis obliterates Two UniverseS--
Not with destructive force, but with a wave of pure creative energy"
"Thus Reality is Not brought to the edge of apocalypse,
but to its very origins."

Initially I thought the Two UniverseS were obliterated and Nemesis
then created that mini reality from parts of both. I now know
Nemesis warped both UniverseS to their "origins" [img=http://s3d3.turboimagehost.com/t/16000806_Nem3.jpg]
and brought it back just the same, because it wasn't a "destructive force"
but rather "a wave of pure creative energy."

It's evident Nemesis did this in one shot. Nemesis didn't destroy
then re-create the UniverseS in successions,
I now realize her Wave of pure Creative energy simultaneously
collapsed them to their beginnings and unfolded them likewise. (big scans above)

Which is a form of destruction/re-creation.

No wonder the Nemesis and Ultraforce official bios both state:
"Nemesis released a Reality Warp across both UniverseS"

🙂

My interpretation is in-tune with the IG's official bio:

http://marvel.com/universe/Infinity_Gems

"In that Other Multiverse" (Malibu) "reunited a Seventh Gem ...
Nemesis' consciousness, who wreaked havoc IN both Dimensions."

----------------------------------------------

That doesn't mean that both Marvel and I are right.

Originally posted by Mr Master
^^ Still disagree with your other points.

Nice. I'm not into all this explaining on this one.

I have the scans, (on panel/handbooks)
while I know you don't have a single scan that states,
either Asgard, the Microverse or the Crimson Cosmos are withIN 616.

As for the Negative Zone, (aside from massive proof for that as well)
you should recall a not to distant arc called "Annihilation" ...
.... yea, [b]it consisted of Two separate UniverseS (616 and the Negative Zone)

In fact, the Negative Zone is an "Anti-Matter Universe" ...
... it dares Not make any kinda contact with 616, let alone exist withIN it. 😂

🙂 [/B]

I know what the Negative Zone is. And I know that there is a 616 Annihilus has invaded the positive matter universe a lot, most spectacularly in Annihilation. However, and this is the thing you seem to be obtusely, and rather obscenely, ignoring: this isn't Annihilus from the hypothetical "617 Universe." And this Annihilus isn't the same as the one who invaded the 9997 Universe in What If... Annihilation Reach Earth? That was 9997 Annihilus. Not "9998 Annihilus."

This is all common sense. Because while Thor may have been birthed in another dimension called Asgard that lies beyond normal time/space, he isn't from some hypothetical alternate universe called the "615 Universe." He's 616 Thor. Making that Asgard part of the 616 Universe (Multiverse, whatever). To argue anything else would just bastardize the entire notion of parallel universes as established throughout 1000s of comics. And let's not pretend you're not trying to do just that.

Originally posted by leonidas
i don't think he's saying it exists within the universe that captain america exists in. i've used the analogy in the past as a possible idea (not unsupported) for some planes of existence. i do [b]THINK he's saying the same thing i've said for a long time now--all those dimensions (micro, negative, asgard et. al.,) are part of a larger yet connected....unit of some sort. i call it 616 eternity. were i to reference dormammu, i would reference him as 616 dormammu to indicate which dormmy in the multiverse i was talking about. obviously i think eternity 616 compromises more than just captain america's universe--it incorporates all these other dimensions that ALSO (coincidentally?) manifest when an alternate version of eternity is shown to exist. you already know very well the scans that support that idea but you don't interpret them that way for some reason. i have no idea if odg agrees with my 616 eternity point, but i think he's essentially echoing the same thoughts i've been espousing for a long time now--these different dimensions/zones/universes/etc., are all part of the larger prime marvel universe, and all would be designated as 616 versions of said places. [/B]

Originally posted by Mr Master
Ok.
So, you have no on panel statement that verifies the Two UniverseS were not obliterated,
and instead it was a what? An illusion?
Who's confused about what happened? Herdling, the writer?

Originally posted by Mr Master
It's the Writer's narration:

http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/16000777/Nem1-1.jpg.html
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/16000778/Nem2-1.jpg.html

Originally posted by Mr Master
This isn't the writer making a character "think" he's seeing something,
or making a character talk out of his/her ass ... No! .. it's what happened,
what was noted in [b]3 official Handbooks (Nemesis-Infinity Gauntlet-Ultraforce)

Handbooks are "worthless" if they contradict on panel showings,
so don't give me that "Maelstrom" nonsense please.
I SEE with my own eyes, and READ it likewise, Nemesis Obliterated Two UniverseS!
Nothing on panel or in any bio disputes this as an error, or illusion or whatever else you believe it was.[/b]

Originally posted by Mr Master
Herdling writes: "Nemesis obliterates Two UniverseS--
Not with destructive force, [b]but with a wave of pure creative energy"
"Thus Reality is Not brought to the edge of apocalypse,
but to its very origins."

Initially I thought the Two UniverseS were obliterated and Nemesis
then created that mini reality from parts of both. I now know
Nemesis warped both UniverseS to their "origins" [img=http://s3d3.turboimagehost.com/t/16000806_Nem3.jpg]
and brought it back just the same, because it wasn't a "destructive force"
but rather "a wave of pure creative energy."

It's evident Nemesis did this in one shot. Nemesis didn't destroy
then re-create the UniverseS in successions,
I now realize her Wave of pure Creative energy simultaneously
collapsed them to their beginnings and unfolded them likewise. (big scans above)

Which is a form of destruction/re-creation.

No wonder the Nemesis and Ultraforce official bios both state:
"Nemesis released a Reality Warp across both UniverseS"[/b]

Contrary states that she fears Nemesis is so frustrated, she might go on and wipe out the Ultraverse to fulfill her creative function... which means she actually didn't wipe it out to begin with:

The narration even states, matter-of-factly, that Nemesis is frustrated because all she is doing is painting over existing creation:

Originally posted by Mr Master
My interpretation is in-tune with the IG's official bio:

http://marvel.com/universe/Infinity_Gems

"[b]In that Other Multiverse" (Malibu) "reunited a Seventh Gem ...
Nemesis' consciousness, who wreaked havoc IN both Dimensions."

----------------------------------------------

That doesn't mean that both Marvel and I are right. [/B]

No, wait, lemme find a wiki article and ima get back to you, bro. 🙄

Dawn of Time Anti-Monitor wins

Originally posted by ODG
I have my common sense.

I know what the Negative Zone is. And I know that there is a 616
Annihilus has invaded the positive matter universe a lot, most
spectacularly in Annihilation. However, and this is the thing
you seem to be obtusely, and rather obscenely, ignoring: this isn't
Annihilus from the hypothetical "617 Universe." And this Annihilus
isn't the same as the one who invaded the 9997 Universe in
What If... Annihilation Reach Earth? That was 9997 Annihilus.
Not "9998 Annihilus."

This is all common sense. Because while Thor may have been
birthed in another dimension called Asgard that lies beyond normal
time/space, he isn't from some hypothetical alternate universe
called the "615 Universe." He's 616 Thor. Making that Asgard part
of the 616 Universe (Multiverse, whatever). To argue anything
else would just bastardize the entire notion of parallel universes as
established throughout 1000s of comics. And let's not pretend
you're not trying to do just that. This guy gets it.

What we got here is a game of 'Show and Tell' ...
... you're telling me everything but showing me nothing.

I'm not interested in all this unrelated logic.

Simple, let me know if you want proof that the "Sea of Space"
that houses Asgard is in Another Reality,
in a Pocket-Dimension OUTSIDE the 616 Reality.

That's it. .... Simple.

If you have On Panel proof that depicts/states Asgard is located withIN the 616 Reality,
you may have something against my 30 scans that say otherwise.

We know currently where "Asgardia" is, and that doesn't count at all.

Wait.

You're arguing Asgard isn't a part of the 616 Earth/Universe?

Originally posted by JakeTheBank
Wait.

You're arguing Asgard isn't a part of the 616 Earth/Universe?

Originally posted by Mr Master
Simple, let me know if you want proof that the "Sea of Space"
that houses Asgard is in Another Reality,
in a Pocket-Dimension OUTSIDE the 616 Reality.

Originally posted by Mr Master
Is that it?

What we got here is a game of 'Show and Tell' ...
... you're telling me everything but showing me nothing.

I'm not interested in all this unrelated logic.

Originally posted by Mr Master
Simple, let me know if you want proof that the "Sea of Space"
that houses Asgard is in Another Reality,
in a Pocket-Dimension OUTSIDE the 616 Reality.

That's it. .... Simple.

If you have On Panel proof that depicts/states Asgard is located withIN the 616 Reality,
you may have something against my 30 scans that say otherwise.

We know currently where "Asgardia" is, and that doesn't count at all.

But then again, your inelegantly dancing around this rather indicting cut of your logic. We agree this Asgard dimension is outside the normal boundaries of 616 time/space proper. Hell, so are random pocket dimensions inside it. But have you any proof that this Asgard dimension is some fully functional parallel universe that deserves its own ### designation? Because if you don't, then feel free to weep bitter tears. Because that just shows it's tied to the 616 Universe (or 616 Multiverse).

Let us know what handbook entry you have that shows Thor isn't 616 Thor at all, but actually 615 Thor. Excuse me while I laugh myself right out of this thread until you post another dodgy response.

Originally posted by JakeTheBank
Wait.

You're arguing Asgard isn't a part of the 616 Earth/Universe?

I know it to be fact! I have the scans in wait.
I love all the logic pinned against truth until truth with proof shuts it all down.

Originally posted by TheGodKiller

Even deeper:

Apparently Asgard is housed in a separate universe outside of 616.
Which puts a BIG question mark on all the supposed "research" he
did regarding "Everything Burns" in the Surtur vs Shuma thread.

So, yesterday you snap at me with disrespect, today you troll me.

Cool.

wat

I'm not even sure how one could argue, much less prove, that Asgard/Asgardian Space/The Nine Realms aren't a part of the 616 Marvel Universe. It is its own dimension, sure, but apart of another numerical designation altogether?

I'm legitimately baffled.

^^ I never said that friend. I said Asgard is located in a Pocket-Dimension
Outside the 616 Reality.

Meaning, Asgard, is Not withIN the 616 Universe.

Although yes, mainstream Asgard deals with 616 reality events.

Originally posted by ODG

I'm showing you comics and common sense. You want to
extrapolate random anecdotes and isolated handbook entries in
contravention of comics. That might be your M.O., but it hardly
suffices to overturn established Marvel cosmology.

I'll respectfully disagree with it though.

Originally posted by ODG

And yet, this Asgard dimension always ties itself to the 616 Universe.

That isn't coincidence.

Originally posted by ODG

But then again, your inelegantly dancing around this rather
indicting cut of your logic. We agree this Asgard dimension is
outside the normal boundaries of 616 time/space proper. Hell, so
are random pocket dimensions inside it. But have you any proof
that this Asgard dimension is some fully functional parallel
universe that deserves its own ### designation? Because if you
don't, then feel free to weep bitter tears. Because that just shows
it's tied to the 616 Universe (or 616 Multiverse).

### designations are assigned to Alternate Eternitys,
and Universes located in Other Multiverses
Not pocket-universes.

Pocket-Dimensions are located around the center of the Multiverse.
At the center of the Multiverse is the 616 Reality and surrounding
the 616 Universe are the infinite Alternate Universes. Around the
infinite alternate universes are the Pocket-Dimensions like Asgard,
Meph's domain and so on.
There are Universe even further out.

I'll come back to this later.

The Pocket-Dimensions that deal with the 616 reality
diverge just the same but still remaining Outside those diverged realities,
in their own Space.

Originally posted by Mr Master
That's your opinion.

I'll respectfully disagree with it though.

Originally posted by Mr Master
Only via the Rainbow Bridge (inter-dimensional portal really)
Otherwise you need to open inter-dimensional vortex/portal whathaveyou to get there.

Originally posted by Mr Master
There are No pocket-dimensions withIN the 616 Space-Time.

Originally posted by Mr Master
### designations are assigned to Alternate Eternitys,
and Universes located in Other Multiverses
Not pocket-universes.

Pocket-Dimensions are located around the center of the Multiverse.
At the center of the Multiverse is the 616 Reality and surrounding
the 616 Universe are the infinite Alternate Universes. Around the
infinite alternate universes are the Pocket-Dimensions like Asgard,
Meph's domain and so on.
There are Universe even further out.

I'll come back to this later.

Originally posted by Mr Master
The Pocket-Dimensions that deal with the 616 reality
diverge just the same but still remaining Outside those diverged realities,
in their own Space.

Whether or not you want 616 Eternity to not actually encompass Mephisto's realm or Asgard is your own mess. Personally to me, it's obvious he does. But if you don't believe so, I couldn't care less.

Originally posted by Mr Master

So, you have no on panel statement that verifies the Two UniverseS were not obliterated,
and instead it was a what?

An illusion?

Who's confused about what happened? Herdling, the writer?

It's the Writer's narration:

This isn't the writer making a character "think" he's seeing something,
or making a character talk out of his/her ass ... No! .. it's what happened,
what was noted in 3 official Handbooks (Nemesis-Infinity Gauntlet-Ultraforce)

Herdling writes: "Nemesis obliterates Two UniverseS--
Not with destructive force, but with a wave of pure creative energy"
"Thus Reality is Not brought to the edge of apocalypse,
but to its very origins."

The Writer of the book states what I reposted above,
the Artists draws this happening.

Is this an illusion? If so where's it stated?

Anyway, Nemesis Warped both UniverseS with "pure Creative Energy"
to its very origins
Then tried creating a mini-reality withIN the Ultraverse out of parts from both universes.
This ended up collapsing.
Nemesis continued trying to create on top of reality which was wrong.
Nemesis collapsed All the Walls between the Infinite Realities in the Prime Multiverse
and in the Malibu Multiverse.
Nemesis one shot the infinite copies of the 616 Avengers and the infinite copies of the Ultraforce.

Which makes one wonder how you believe Two Collpased MultiverseS were fixed?

I already answered that several times but perhaps there was another God acting in this arc.

Originally posted by Mr Master
You say this didn't happen, well then, what happened?

Originally posted by Mr Master
The Writer of the book states what I reposted above,
the Artists draws this happening.

Is this an illusion? If so where's it stated?

Anyway, Nemesis Warped both UniverseS with "pure Creative Energy"
to its very origins

Originally posted by Mr Master
Then tried creating a mini-reality withIN the Ultraverse out of parts from both universes.
This ended up collapsing.
Nemesis continued trying to create on top of reality which was wrong.

Originally posted by Mr Master
Nemesis collapsed All the Walls between the Infinite Realities in the Prime Multiverse
and in the Malibu Multiverse.
Nemesis one shot the infinite copies of the 616 Avengers and the infinite copies of the Ultraforce.

Which makes one wonder how you believe Two Collpased MultiverseS were fixed?

I already answered that several times but perhaps there was another God acting in this arc.

Originally posted by ODG

Well, no sh1t. It's not like you can take a left at Mars and
travel some 57 million light years to get there. Then again,
Olympus used to be the same way before it got relocated to the
Long Island Sound. Thor/Hercules punched a random portal
leading to it way back in Avengers #100. They didn't punch
some multiverse-transversing portal.

If they needed a portal, then it's another dimension.

Originally posted by ODG

What do you think the very definition of "pocket dimension"
entails?

Phucking Hank Pym has a pocket dimension where he
keeps his lab and tools. You're trying very hard to not admit what
we're all saying. Normal 616 space-time is traversible through
space flight. You get on a space ship, and you can get anywhere in
normal space with enough time. You want to get to Olympus, or
the Soul Gem's universe, or the Astral Plane, or Mephisto's realm,
or Nightmare's Realm, or etc. then you needed to go beyond
normal space-time to get there. Typically, with a plot device
portal. But that's still all part of the 616 Reality. Why? Because
all these dimensions are inextricably tied to the 616 Universe and
have their own respective alternate counterparts across the Marvel
Multiverse's parallel universes. When you look at a What If?
tale, they typically have their own Thor. Their own Annihilus.
Their own Mephisto. Their own Hercules, etc. You'd have to
ignore comics otherwise. They're still a part of the 616 Universe.

But to answer your question.

To me the definition of "Pocket-Universe" is what Marvel says it is:

It's a Universe but with boundaries.

Unlike Eternitys which are infinite.

Originally posted by ODG

Whether or not you want 616 Eternity to not actually encompass
Mephisto's realm or Asgard is your own mess. Personally to me,
it's obvious he does. But if you don't believe so, I couldn't care less.

Originally posted by Mr Master
You can jump across into another Multiverse via a portal.

If they needed a portal, then it's another dimension.

Originally posted by Mr Master
Already told ya friend, the great explanations aren't doing it for me.

But to answer your question.

To me the definition of "Pocket-Universe" is what Marvel says it is:

http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/16033916/MU_bio8.jpg.html

It's a Universe with Space-Time and Matter but with boundaries

Unlike Eternitys which are infinite.

Originally posted by Mr Master
It's not I want or don't want, it's what Marvel is and that's my database.

But clearly this criticism is falling on deaf ears. So let's turn the discussion towards the absurd results your distorted cosmology engenders. Asgard and Mephisto's Realm are within 616 Eternity. He embodies them within his entirety. If you don't believe that, and think that they somehow lie outside 616 Eternity floating around in some imaginary void with no actual ties to 616, then apparently if current Cap w/IG were to try to fight Odin within the Asgardian dimension, he'd find his IG powerless because he's "outside his native reality."

Which is just phucking stupid. That absurd result amply reflects on your selective circumstantial evidence. Now I'll leave you to chew on this and ponder what you're trying to sell. And I'd suggest you do it quickly before some troll makes a Cap w/IG vs. Cyttorak inside Crimson Cosmos thread.

^^ If you're going to begin attacking with fallacies, we're done here.

My data-base is Marvel Comics books. On Panel first and foremost.

The Handbooks are used to cement my On Panel evidence.

You want On Panel clarification that Pocket-Dimensions have Boundaries?

No problem homie.

.. my database is handbooks ... 😂

Originally posted by ODG

What happened is exactly what Contrary described what
happened. A creative energy conflagration where Nemesis
entrapped all the heroes and made them watch her create an
America-sized universe on top of the Godwheel habitat, which,
y'know, exists within the Ultraverse universe... up until it blew up
and she teleported all of them to the Ultraverse Earth, which,
y'know, also exists within the Ultraverse universe. And I'll thank
you to not tie together two images from two bookends again. That
landscape she is creating isn't the Ultraverse/616 Universe. It's
just that sh1tty America-sized universe she was struggling with.
Which is made blatantly clear when you actually look at the first
two proper pages side-by-side of Ultraforce/Avengers:

The universes weren't warped to their very origins as the
Godwheel, the Ultraverse Earth and all the heroes were still
around. You'd know this if you paid attention here where it turns
out all three of these exist:
Yeah, and when it collapsed Nemesis panickedly teleported herself
and the other heroes to the Ultraverse Earth. Which, y'know, was
still around and existed unlike your assertion that it along with its
universe was destroyed. As you ignore my points repeatedly, I'll
simply ignore your faulty conclusions. They don't merit a response.

My final point again since you're not conveying it correctly.

Nemesis warped both Universes, they didn't remain destroyed,
they were remade, brought to their origins and back in a wave of pure creative energy,
not unlike the wave that fixed everything in the end:

See Everyone there getting Obliterated and REMADE in the next moment.

Same shit as what Nemesis (oh wow, exactly alike - a Wave of Creative Energy)
did the first time around:

"Not with Destructive force, but pure Creative Energy"

----------------------------------------------

So, again, Nemesis remade both UniverseS,
then she tried to create a mini-reality withIN one of the re-created universes (Ultraverse)
and it collapsed after Two characters from Two separate MultiverseS touched.

So yea, there was an Ultraverse & Godwheel still around,
cause it was remade just like in the above scans the next time
with the exact same Creative Energies and method.

stoned

Mr Master:

here in thor #615 the conclusion is that asgard is in midgard/earth

http://i.imgur.com/VwlnoVR.jpg

not to mention in the same scan he directly compares the nine realms as being next to earth, so it's definitely inside 616 universe

now im sure you're going to counter it by posting the doctor strange sorcerer supreme #21 scans:

http://i.imgur.com/QpOBtLZ.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/w6qk3cw.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/JwoofhC.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/WI1t8oC.jpg

dont know what to make of it.

Originally posted by operator616
Mr Master:

here in thor #615 the conclusion is that asgard is in midgard/earth

http://i.imgur.com/VwlnoVR.jpg

not to mention in the same scan he directly compares the nine realms as being next to earth, so it's definitely inside 616 universe

Asgard (the land mass) is currently in Earth's Atmosphere.

What the hell are you talking about that he says anything else is withIN 616?

Originally posted by operator616

now im sure you're going to counter it by posting the doctor strange sorcerer supreme #21 scans:

http://i.imgur.com/QpOBtLZ.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/w6qk3cw.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/JwoofhC.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/WI1t8oC.jpg

dont know what to make of it.

That's not my counter. You got 4 scans there, while I have 30.

Refrain from being "sure" of anything I'm gonna do.

Originally posted by Mr Master
😐

Asgard (the land mass) is currently in Earth's Atmosphere.

What the hell are you talking about that he says anything else is withIN 616?

I like that you're actually "sure" of what I'll do next and my "counters"
but ... wrong.

That's not my counter. You got 4 scans there, while I have 30.

Refrain from being "sure" of anything I'm gonna do.

what? you yourself said that asgard is in a pocket dimension outside 616, your point being?

ok, what are those 30 scans?