Maul Brothers vs. Bane

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LoRGZAvDuiY

Then you must have missed 0:55 the whole fight after 2:10 particularly at 2:32.

Yes at 2:32 where Maul has Sidious on his knees and Sidious is clearly struggling to overpower him. He doesn't start laughing again until Maul is disarmed. And he wastes no time to use his superior force powers on him.

Oh and all this after Maul was stalemating him in Sabers for a good 20 seconds. And yet Sidious didn't seem able to up his game at all.

You serious? The fight lasts about four minutes... He out-duels both of them with ease. If there's any part of the video in which you see Sidious seriously struggling or having a hard time your eye-sight is playing tricks on you. As Tempest said, the only time Sidious looks like he might be struggling a little bit was during the saber-lock. In which he eventually overwhelms Maul. He kills Savage in less than four minutes and disposes of both of them in less than five. When Sidious defeats two opponents in less than five minutes, you have to acknowledge he didn't really struggle.

The moment Sidious drops his playful demeanor, he ends the fight in the next move.

The margin between Maul and Sidious, Savage and Sidious, and yes, Savage & Maul and Sidious is chasmal.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Regardless, this doesn’t preclude Sidious restraining himself.

True.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Because the flips at the selected time stamps accomplished nothing; they were clearly unnecessary.

Star Wars lightsaber fights have been filled with "needless" flips, jumps, lightsaber twirls, etc... since TPM. It's just the way it works. It's done to make the duels more exiting to watch. Frankly, to say these are unnecessary is flawed as, despite being unnecessary from any real-world view, these are just a bunch of mystical warriors who fight in such a way.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
I’ve disregarded the book since the episode aired. That said, I’m not sure how you can reconcile the admission that he was enjoying himself and not fighting for his life with the idea that he was fighting as hard as he could. To me, these ideas seem mutually exclusive.

Easy. He simply is enjoying the fight. It's like a sparring match for a championship, the two competitors are enjoying themselves yet are still fighting to the best of their ability.

While I do not claim expertise, I can tell you that having actually participated in sparring matches, they are still a far cry from actual combat. Yes, one can display technical proficiency and demonstrate all the requisite maneuvers, but (in the words of my own instructor) going for the kill is something entirely different.

Oh, you're quite right there. However, I was merely pointing out that one can enjoy themselves while simultaneously exerting themselves.

Originally posted by ares834
Oh, you're quite right there. However, I was merely pointing out that one can enjoy themselves while simultaneously exerting themselves.

But most championship sparring matches don't feature open laughter and a sense of ease; both fighters tend to have an aura of focus and concentration.

Okay. So we see that another Force user was capable of acting through the Force against Luke even while pinned, yet Caedus was not. Are you really going to argue that Caedus, who spent years searching for arcane techniques and studying the Force was so stupid as to think he could physically exert himself enough to escape Luke's Force hold?

Again, from the passage:

If the actual fight started, Caedus did not dread Luke's TK:
"But Luke seemed to realize that attacking Caedus aboard his own Star Destroyer-even if he was fortunate enough to kill him-would only put the academy and the rest of his Jedi in an even more precarious position".

Finally we have actual fight between them, where Caedus at one point is at disadvantagous position, yet, he Force handles Luke:
"Jacen stopped cutting at the tendrils and flung a hand toward the ceiling.

"Dad, look — "

Luke was already throwing himself to the deck. A tremendous crash sounded from the illumination panel, and the chamber fell instantly dark. He rolled opposite the direction he had just been moving, but wasn't quick enough. The fixture smashed into his head and shoulders, slamming his face into the deck. He heard something crunch in his nose and was instantly choking on his own thick blood"

Is it really your assertion that one, Luke didn't handle Caedus like a child as it directly words it in the passage, and that two, he really could have escaped anytime that he wanted through the Force, yet he thought he'd try a path of physical action only? Lastly, are you really going to try and still claim that Luke isn't superior to Caedus in TK both in scope and in actual combat?

Luke performs a feat that strains his limits:
"He grabbed the vessel in the Force and held it in place, then opened fire with his laser cannons. The startled B-wing pilot applied more power, trying to break free. Luke drew on the Force more heavily to counter the maneuvering thrusters, and all of the energy flowing through his body began to make his skin nettle."

Jacen replicates Luke's feat:
"Luke started to Force-grab the fighter again, but Jacen had already caught it and was holding it in place while cannon bolts pounded its shields from above."

Also, Luke never lifted something as heavy as a starship, Jacen did though:

"And that was when a loud groan sounded from the hull. Jaina and Zekk paused, thinking the craft was about to explode. Instead, it rolled away from them, revealing a dark jagged hole where the near wing had once connected to the fuselage.

Realizing someone had to be using the Force, Jaina and Zekk glanced over their shoulders and found Jacen looking in the drop ship's direction. He smiled, then nodded past them toward the vessel."

Size of that cruiser:
"The vessel itself was a fiery wedge of ceram-metal composite at the tip of the smoke plume, no more than forty meters long and perhaps half that at the base."

As you see there is strong basis to believe that their TK is comparable. But most important is that during actual all-out fight neither demonstrated superiority in TK, which nullifies your believe.

Originally posted by Arhael

Also, Luke never lifted something as heavy as a starship, Jacen did though:

"And that was when a loud groan sounded from the hull. Jaina and Zekk paused, thinking the craft was about to explode. Instead, it rolled away from them, revealing a dark jagged hole where the near wing had once connected to the fuselage.

Realizing someone had to be using the Force, Jaina and Zekk glanced over their shoulders and found Jacen looking in the drop ship's direction. He smiled, then nodded past them toward the vessel."

Size of that cruiser:
"The vessel itself was a fiery wedge of ceram-metal composite at the tip of the smoke plume, no more than forty meters long and perhaps half that at the base."

As you see there is strong basis to believe that their TK is comparable. But most important is that during actual all-out fight neither demonstrated superiority in TK, which nullifies your believe.

Not bad, Ahrael.

Though no doubt Debators will forget these feats of Jacen's in future debates.

There should be a respect thread to compile records of feats like these.

Originally posted by Arhael
Physically? Are you trying to put words in my mouth? I said he could use Force to break free, not physically.
And I don't get your point. Are you trying to say that that Sith has better TK than Caedus that he could break free from Luke's grip?

As I said it was not a combat situation and Caedus did not want to fight:
"He could have leapt up to attack-had he been that foolish-but Sith were not slaves to their emotions. Avenging his humiliation could wait until after he had saved the Alliance
...
Moving very slowly so his uncle would not misinterpret his actions as an attack, Caedus stood.
"

If the actual fight started, Caedus did not dread Luke's TK:
"But Luke seemed to realize that attacking Caedus aboard his own Star Destroyer-even [b]if he was fortunate enough to kill him-would only put the academy and the rest of his Jedi in an even more precarious position".

Finally we have actual fight between them, where Caedus at one point is at disadvantagous position, yet, he Force handles Luke:
"Jacen stopped cutting at the tendrils and flung a hand toward the ceiling.

"Dad, look — "

Luke was already throwing himself to the deck. A tremendous crash sounded from the illumination panel, and the chamber fell instantly dark. He rolled opposite the direction he had just been moving, but wasn't quick enough. The fixture smashed into his head and shoulders, slamming his face into the deck. He heard something crunch in his nose and was instantly choking on his own thick blood"

No, it is not just my assertion. It is simply not combat situation. If he tried to use Force, it would most certainly provoke fight. Fact remains, he did not try to use Force, there is no way around it. And yes, Jacen's TK is comparable to Luke and there is strong evidence for that.

Luke performs a feat that strains his limits:
"He grabbed the vessel in the Force and held it in place, then opened fire with his laser cannons. The startled B-wing pilot applied more power, trying to break free. Luke drew on the Force more heavily to counter the maneuvering thrusters, and all of the energy flowing through his body began to make his skin nettle."

Jacen replicates Luke's feat:
"Luke started to Force-grab the fighter again, but Jacen had already caught it and was holding it in place while cannon bolts pounded its shields from above."

Also, Luke never lifted something as heavy as a starship, Jacen did though:

"And that was when a loud groan sounded from the hull. Jaina and Zekk paused, thinking the craft was about to explode. Instead, it rolled away from them, revealing a dark jagged hole where the near wing had once connected to the fuselage.

Realizing someone had to be using the Force, Jaina and Zekk glanced over their shoulders and found Jacen looking in the drop ship's direction. He smiled, then nodded past them toward the vessel."

Size of that cruiser:
"The vessel itself was a fiery wedge of ceram-metal composite at the tip of the smoke plume, no more than forty meters long and perhaps half that at the base."

As you see there is strong basis to believe that their TK is comparable. But most important is that during actual all-out fight neither demonstrated superiority in TK, which nullifies your believe. [/B]

To the later TK argument: while what Jacen did showed power, Luke literally tore Jacen's ship apart out from underneath him before he could even understand what was going on. His Force prowess was so far superior to Jacen's that he had no comprehension of what was occurring until Luke hailed him over the radio.

Again, to the first argument: either Jacen is stupid and thought he could physically escape, or he was trying to escape through the Force. Yes, at one point it's clear that he tries physical escape because he's so shocked by Luke's statement that he forgets himself, but during the rest of the scene he is clearly trying to exert himself through the Force and failing.

When Jacen contemplates attacking and thinks better of it, it is after Luke has released him and he actually has a chance to direct the Force against him.

Bottom line: the passage states both in direct words and through context that Luke handled Jacen like a baby, period. Every fight that Jacen survived against Luke was because Luke let him survive.

Revelation
Luke's StealthX nudged him again from behind-how? Caedus couldn't see. Force push? Something metallic inside the fuselage shrieked. He had a sense of someone rummag-ing furiously in the drives as if looking for a dropped hydrospanner, throwing fragments into the coils. He's ripping the thing apart...

Caedus tried to block Luke in the Force and suddenly got an idea of just how much power Luke could muster. His seat shot forward, sheared off the runners, tipped to one side, and he hit the console at an angle before he could buffer the collision with the Force. Something cracked in his chest. Pain flared, stopping his breathing.

Just watched the episode. While Sidious certainly was exerting himself to some extent, there was never any point in the battle during which the brothers had the upper hand. Sidious toyed with them and then broke them as he saw fit.

Sidious turns his back after accusing Maul of decieving him. I'm pretty sure that's enough warning for Maul if he knows his master well enough. And judging from Savage's 'mean mug' expressions and balling up his hands in a fist, it's apparent that he did not trust Sidious, so I doubt he had his force defenses lowered, especially since he was able to sense how powerful Sidious was in the force (Shadow Conspiracy).

Regardless, Sidious does not need to surprise attack them in order to break through their defenses, as evident when he casually force pulls both of them as he was falling.

There was no sign that either of them were dazed.

They were struggling to break free from Sidious' force grip, but they were just defensless against it.

He was owning both of them together - while enjoying himself. Who says he needed to remove Maul out of the equation?

Between Sidious feat of downing council members in seconds and the evidents that show Sidious was in no hurry to kill Maul and Savage, it's very reasonable to conclude that Sidious was not using his full speed on them.

especially when Kit has shown that he has at least comparable speed to Obi Wan, who is capable of holding his own with Darth Maul (but I guess you can argue that Obi Wan only fought Maul when he had inferior legs, but I know you're not willing to accept that).

And yes Sidious blitzed jedi masters through sheer speed.

You can bring up all the inconsistencies of other characters all you want. I'm not discussing those characters, I'm discussing Sidious, and niether Maul or Obi Wan has demonstrated the speed that even approaches Sidious best speed feats.

Your use of double-standards makes me not want to even debate with you. You don't apply those same standards when it comes to Obi Wan; you suggest that we ignore his ragdoll treatment by Grievous, and being knocked unconscious by Ventress. But when it comes to Sidious, this is the logic you want to use:

How the hell do you expect someone to take you seriously after this?

First, I don't use double standards with Kenobi. In AotC he got outskilled by Dooku. In early CW he had hard time fighting Grievous and got kicked ones by Ventress. Then he got ragdolled by either brother. But then he outskilled both brothers combined. And then he defeated even rage boosted Anakin in prolonged fight. Kenobi clearly improves and gets more experienced overtime. There is nothing wrong in ignoring feats of less experienced Kenobi, when we have feats of prime Kenobi. So your accusation is void.

Second, you are using double standards. You refuse to admit that Kenobi is comparable to Sidious despite them both performing well against brothers. Yet, you are eager to shout that Kenobi is comparable to Fisto despite the fact that Kenobi's feats outstrip Fisto's by far.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
But most championship sparring matches don't feature open laughter and a sense of ease; both fighters tend to have an aura of focus and concentration.

Windu's Vaapad was about relishing fight. And such state of mind was effective enough to outskill Sidious himself. But this proof pails in comparison to the one I gonna bring next.

"The man's answering laugh was deep and long and bright, full of joy and freedom.

"No. I am Ganner." He spun his shining blade in a dazzlingly complex flourish that illuminated the arch around him, making it shine like a rainbow frame for the pure, animal grace of his body. "This threshold," he announced through a happy grin, "is mine. I claim it for my own.

Bring on your thousands, one at a time or all in a rush. I don't give a damn." His flourish ended with the blade slanted before his chest, and his teeth flashed in the gloom. "None shall pass.""
...
"Standing in the archway, waiting for the Yuuzhan Vong, Ganner realized that this, right now, right here, was what his whole life had been for. The day of his birth set his feet upon this path; every triumph and tragedy, every foolish stunt and humiliation, each random useless twist of cruel fate built a pressure within him, piled up in tidal surge behind the dikes of his control. Those dikes had been built by his parents, trying to smooth the rough edges of his arrogance; they had been built by the mocking laughter of his playmates, when they jeered his every attempt to impress them; they had been built even by Luke Skywalker's Jedi training...

"A Jedi doesn't show off, Ganner. Fighting is not a game. For the Jedi, combat is failure. It is a tragedy. When blood must be shed, a Jedi does so quickly, surgically, with solemn reverence. With grief." Ganner tried for so long, tried so hard to be what everyone told him he was supposed to be, tried to control his flair for the dramatic, for the elegant, the graceful, the artistic, tried to be a good son, a good friend, a humble man, a good Jedi... But in the archway, he finds the end of trying. There is reason no longer to resist the truth of himself. Playacting the hero's part is not only permissible--It is necessary. To hold the archway it is not enough to merely wound and kill, is not enough to be calm, and surgical, and grieving. To hold the archway, he must not only slaughter, but slaughter effortlessly, carelessly, laughingly.

Joyfully. To hold the archway, he must dance and whirl and leap and spin, calling out for more opponents. More victims. He must make them hesitate to face him. He must make them fear. He had spoken the words: he had found a magical incantation to crack the dikes within him and unleash the flood.

None shall pass."

Again, to the first argument: either Jacen is stupid and thought he could physically escape, or he was trying to escape through the Force. Yes, at one point it's clear that he tries physical escape because he's so shocked by Luke's statement that he forgets himself, but during the rest of the scene he is clearly trying to exert himself through the Force and failing.

When Jacen contemplates attacking and thinks better of it, it is after Luke has released him and he actually has a chance to direct the Force against him.

Bottom line: the passage states both in direct words and through context that Luke handled Jacen like a baby, period. Every fight that Jacen survived against Luke was because Luke let him survive.

Revelation
Luke's StealthX nudged him again from behind-how? Caedus couldn't see. Force push? Something metallic inside the fuselage shrieked. He had a sense of someone rummag-ing furiously in the drives as if looking for a dropped hydrospanner, throwing fragments into the coils. He's ripping the thing apart...

Caedus tried to block Luke in the Force and suddenly got an idea of just how much power Luke could muster. His seat shot forward, sheared off the runners, tipped to one side, and he hit the console at an angle before he could buffer the collision with the Force. Something cracked in his chest. Pain flared, stopping his breathing.

They'd tried to cripple the StealthX and grab him, air-frame and all, right in the middle of the fleet".

Anyway. You two made a decent job at trying to overhype Luke.

The grappling arms were coming in to grab the ship, it wasn't already gripping Caedus's ship. And had it been the thing ripping apart the engines it should already be gripping Caedus's ship.

Regardless, the whole thing is a pretty clear indication that Luke's telekinesis far outstrips Jacen's own. Jacen tries to block Luke and Luke proceeds to own him.

Originally posted by ares834
The grappling arms were coming in to grab the ship, it wasn't already gripping Caedus's ship. And had it been the thing ripping apart the engines it should already be gripping Caedus's ship.

Regardless, the whole thing is a pretty clear indication that Luke's telekinesis far outstrips Jacen's own. Jacen tries to block Luke and Luke proceeds to own him.

"Luke's StealthX nudged him again from behind-how? Caedus couldn't see. Force push?"

As you see Jacen assumes that Luke uses Force on ship, he is not sure. But why would he need to assume, if Force exertion can be felt through the Force? So basically you assume that Jacen's assumption is correct. Assumption within assumption? 😑

What? Are you saying you're not making an assumption?

Anyway, notice what's going on. Had the grappling claws been ripping apart the ship then they would not need to grab onto the ship as they would already be gripping it.

The reason for all the flips by Dave Filoni:

We wanted to take what we had seen in Revenge of the Sith and really blow out the fighting style we saw Sidious have to a much bigger, more elaborate type of acrobatics, and to have him fighting the Maul brothers was a really great visual.

So he took his combat performance from ROTS and expanded on that. Again proving he was supposed to be performing at his peak. Every one of Dave Filoni's comments and the quotes from the official site point to this. Nowhere is it even hinted at him holding back.

Sidious is also confirmed to be winning the fight (though Filoni doesn't differentiate between Sabers and Force powers in that regard. He just talks about the all out), and that's the reason for his smile and laughing not because he's holding back.

As for the "ass kicking" he just says it was nice to see the real villain kick ass out of these other villains. Which we saw. We saw him kick Opress's ass in Sabers and the Force and we saw him kick Maul's ass with the Force.

But nowhere does he say he was "kicking ass" against both of them combined through the whole fight.

And like I've already mentioned he never differentiate's between the Saber contest and Force contest. He just puts them together when he's describing what was happening.

Originally posted by Col. Valerian
You serious? The fight lasts about four minutes... He out-duels both of them with ease.

He never outduels Maul with any kind of ease.

Originally posted by Col. Valerian
If there's any part of the video in which you see Sidious seriously struggling or having a hard time your eye-sight is playing tricks on you.

Then clearly you didn't pause on the bits I pointed out to you.

Originally posted by Col. Valerian
As Tempest said, the only time Sidious looks like he might be struggling a little bit was during the saber-lock. In which he eventually overwhelms Maul.

Which was the only time he outduelled Maul. And you can clearly see his struggle there. In fact that Saber lock began with Sidious on his knees. Sidious clearly struggled to win that last fight.

Originally posted by Col. Valerian
He kills Savage in less than four minutes and disposes of both of them in less than five. When Sidious defeats two opponents in less than five minutes, you have to acknowledge he didn't really struggle.

What's with the time frame? Mace defeated Sidious in a minute. So what? You going to claim there was no competition there?

And Sidious resorted to knocking Maul out with the Force so he could stomp Opress in a one on one. Does that mean he was beating them both together? Yes. But he never outclassed Maul in Sabers.

If it was just grapple arms attacking Jacen then how do you explain his seat shooting forward and all the other damage inside the ship? Ares is also right in that if they'd already grabbed him the how could he have dodged aside at the last second to avoid... them grabbing him?

Originally posted by Arhael
You refuse to admit that Kenobi is comparable to Sidious despite them both performing well against the brothers.

That's because he isn't. Lucas specifically declared that "you have to be Mace or Yoda to compete with the Emperor" (The Making of Revenge of the Sith. Are either of these characters an alter ego of Obi-Wan's?

Arhael
I agree with you in terms of real life. Yet, you are wrong in terms of SW.

Windu's Vaapad was about relishing fight. And such state of mind was effective enough to outskill Sidious himself. But this proof pails in comparison to the one I gonna bring next.

The difference being that Windu did not express his bloodlust and maintained composure, testament to the difficulty of the fight. With respect to Ganner, you neglected the phrase "slaughter effortlessly" which supports my point rather than yours.