Originally posted by Jinsoku Takai
Gee, interesting... I don't recall Sidious toying with the Jedi Council with his lightsaber deactivated as he did with Oppress.
Was Dooku toying with Opress as well?
The fact that he was more careful against Opress in a one on one says a lot. Let's not forget the 3 Council members were together and with Mace Windu.
Originally posted by Jinsoku Takai
And Sidious CLEARLY (see what I did there DP?) took the arrest threat more seriously seeing as how he went STRAIGHT for the kill and was most definitely NOT laughing hysterically as he was against the brothers.
This laughing argument is getting tiring. Yeah let's just ignore the director of the show and the official website and just base everything on Sidious's level of laughter.
I've given enough evidence. The fact that not even one of you is ready to concede a point based on nothing but very subjective speculation says a lot.
Originally posted by Nephthys
Well Oppress did manage to put up some fight. Which is better than the non-fight the 3 twats gave him. But only because Sidious allowed him to put up more of a fight imo.
No. Because if Sidious allowed him to then there would be no comparison to make. But Filoni specifically makes that comparison.
Originally posted by ArhaelThen brothers got concussioned as result of both Force blast and slamming the wall. Then he kept pressing them with such strength that wall started crushing.
Imho being concussioned and pressed against the wall broke their concentration preventing them from using Force properly to counter Sidious.
Actually given what the website says that might actually be evidence that he did attempt to crush them there and then.
Originally posted by ares834
Savage's blow may not have actually done anything, but he still managed to get past Sidious defenses. If Sidious truly outmatched the brothers by as much as some seem to believe that should not happen.
This does not follow. We have precedent of Sidious failing to press his advantage and suffer from it (twice) and even with Maul himself in TPM.
ares834
Sure. But that's the point, he did expend that much energy in the duel. If he was just toying with them there would be no need to. My point is Sidious is putting effort into this duel.
Again, this does not follow. Sidious slackened after an extreme display of acrobatics, not unlike Yoda. He immediately felled Maul with a Force push after and went on to slay Opress without visible difficulty.
The exertion came from the stunts, not the brothers.
ares834
I'm not denying that. Only that once he engages them in sabers it does not appear he is holding back.
The evidence suggests otherwise.
Originally posted by Jinsoku Takai
Did he destroy him? NO HE DIDN'T... He said he wasn't going to kill him (That kind of shits all over your quote!). Therefore, he was HOLDING BACK.
Look at how Sidious killed Opress. He concussed him with kicks, Opress was already in no position to defend. If Sidious didn't want to kill him, he could use instead of lightsaber lightning, TK or another knock down kick. This choice at the last moment wouldn't mean that he held back whole fight before that.
Also, I practiced sword fight myself and can assure you that fingers and wrists are by far the easiest targets to attack, which are not lethal in SW.
The exertion came from the stunts, not the brothers.
Originally posted by The_Tempest
This does not follow. We have precedent of Sidious failing to press his advantage and suffer from it (twice) and even with Maul himself in TPM.
It does follow. Were he truly orders of magnitude greater than the duo, as some seem to believe, they should not be able to touch him. It's not a matter of Sidious failing to press his advantage; it's a matter of slipping past his defenses.
Originally posted by The_Tempest
The exertion came from the stunts, not the brothers.
He was performing the stunts because of the brothers.
Also I must ask, how do you know this? It may be a reasonable assumption, but an assumption is not fact and that's how you seem to be presenting it.
Originally posted by The_Tempest
The evidence suggests otherwise.
Not at all when it comes to sabers.
Originally posted by Arhael
I've already conceded on this possibilty.By the way after analysing it more I see it as demonstration of surprise attack rather than overpowering.
Brothers didn't expect the attack. Maul was kneeling and submitting himself. Sidious even turned away from them making it look like he is no threat.
Then brothers got concussioned as result of both Force blast and slamming the wall. Then he kept pressing them with such strength that wall started crushing.
Imho being concussioned and pressed against the wall broke their concentration preventing them from using Force properly to counter Sidious.
Good. Goooooooooood
This might be an argument were it not for the fact that we can see the brothers visibly straining against Sidious' hold. It stands to reason that if they were physically able to strain, then they could do so with the Force as well.
Originally posted by Arhael
Because I tried to dig it myself and failed. Even favorite Russian websites didn't help me.If it says "destroy" in that source then spare your effort because destroy is not the same as vaporize and has many meanings:
4. To kill: destroy a rabid dog.
5. To subdue or defeat completely; crush: The rebel forces were destroyed in battle.
6. To render useless or ineffective: destroyed the testimony of the prosecution's chief witness.In old Marvel cartoons "destroy" is used as replacement of "kill" to make it suitable for young audience.
And yes, I took that quote from bloody FAQ because manual is unavailable. >🙁
It says 'destroy everything'. Merely killing or subduing would not be destroying everything as there would still be bodies left.
I'm still looking for the other sources on it. When I find them I will post the other evidence.
Originally posted by Arhael
Which still means that Sidious not fighting at full speed is assumption, not a fact.
No, it is a theory. It is no less valid than the idea that Sidious was fighting at full speed, moreso since the evidence points this way.
Originally posted by Arhael
It, also, can mean that Sidious gradually reaches deeper concentration through constant focus as in many SW examples or that his anger level gradually increases boosting him more and more. Anything is possible really.In any case that's not what happens in TCW, on opposite Sidious gets kicked right at the end, which doesn't really support this idea.
If that were the case Sidious' speed would be gradually increasing throughout the whole fight, not merely when he was fighting Maul. If anything this supports my argument since if Sidious was not fully concentrating or fighting at his peak speed during his fight with the brothers then he clearly was toying with them and not giving his all against them.
Anger? Sidious is laughing throughout the fight.
The CWC contradicts the specifics of the fight, but not the idea that Sidious was getting faster. It's still valid.
Originally posted by Arhael
Not really. Yes, it increases power and performance but it doesn't necessarily increases speed. Greater power doesn't give superior speed as many examples suggest. As example Maul didn't have much advantage in speed against Mansalor who had no power at all. And of course examples with characters that have significant power difference like Luke vs Lumya, Abeloth vs Luke, Kenobi vs Anakin and so on.
Force Speed is a Force power. I see no reason why a boost to power would not also boost speed. There are numerous examples of a nexus increasing ones Force powers, why would it not increase Force speed. The text even notes this happening.
Originally posted by Arhael
WHERE?
Have you not been reading the thread?
Originally posted by Arhael
His limits are well shown in AotC and ESB, which are higher canon than that mini cartoon.
No they aren't. And in ESB he is incredibly enfeebled.
This might be an argument were it not for the fact that we can see the brothers visibly straining against Sidious' hold. It stands to reason that if they were physically able to strain, then they could do so with the Force as well.
But, it was after Sids had caught them in a disadvantageous position, and being crushed would reduce concentration, reducing the effectiveness of force defense. They'd also have to worry more about simply resisting getting crushed, rather than the easier scenario of blocking an attack before it hits.
Note how once they get their bearings, he only force-attacks one at a time.
Originally posted by ares834
It does follow. Were he truly orders of magnitude greater than the duo, as some seem to believe, they should not be able to touch him. It's not a matter of Sidious failing to press his advantage; it's a matter of slipping past his defenses.
It doesn't follow. Sidious's attention was fixed on Maul when Savage changed. We see Sidious turn, we do not see him prepare a defense that Savage out maneuvers or overpowers. You are conflating exploitation of Sidious's occupied attention with comparable combat prowess.
Moreover, we see Juno Eclipse land a blow on Vader in TFU2 while he's focusing on Maul. Does he require effort to beat her?
That Savage never lands a similar blow when Sidious's attention his on him is telling.
ares834
He was performing the stunts because of the brothers.Also I must ask, how do you know this? It may be a reasonable assumption, but an assumption is not fact and that's how you seem to be presenting it.
Constant acrobatics are not a necessity of throwing down with the Zabraks. As far as presentation goes, the relevant evidence points to it:
[list]
[*]Filoni first mentioned this arc as a tribute to Sidious's mastery
[*]Filoni then referred to it as an ass kicking
[*]The website confirms Sidious always had the upper hand
[*]Filoni confirms that Sidious was enjoying himself the entire time and declares that Maul, even enraged, is "not nearly as powerful" as Sidious
[*]Sidious, numerous times, chose not to press his advantage
[/list]
It all adds up. On the other side of the fence, the argument is being driven (in your own words) by a desire to make the fight exciting and dramatic.
But that's not the purpose of the fight.
Originally posted by Q99
But, it was after Sids had caught them in a disadvantageous position, and being crushed would reduce concentration, reducing the effectiveness of force defense. They'd also have to worry more about simply resisting getting crushed, rather than the easier scenario of blocking an attack before it hits.Note how once they get their bearings, he only force-attacks one at a time.
Didn't stop him from yanking both of them off the ledge at the same time. We see both brothers display major damage soak. They both evinced anger and both struggled to free themselves. The moment their boots touched the floor, they reached for their weapons.
Let's not pretend they hit their heads and forgot where they were.
Major damage soak? The impact doesn't even shatter the glass behind them very much.
Originally posted by Q99
But, it was after Sids had caught them in a disadvantageous position, and being crushed would reduce concentration, reducing the effectiveness of force defense. They'd also have to worry more about simply resisting getting crushed, rather than the easier scenario of blocking an attack before it hits.Note how once they get their bearings, he only force-attacks one at a time.
Sith gain concentration from pain, if there was pain at all. If there was just discomfort and that affected their ability to resist then frankly they're kind of lame supervillians.
Originally posted by Nephthys
Major damage soak? The impact doesn't even shatter the glass behind them very much.
Originally posted by Nephthys
Sith gain concentration from pain, if there was pain at all. If there was just discomfort and that affected their ability to resist then frankly they're kind of lame supervillians.
The brothers don't seem to posses great command of the Force; they still had lot more to learn. Sidious found them amusing due to this factor alone.
Originally posted by Nephthys
Sith gain concentration from pain, if there was pain at all. If there was just discomfort and that affected their ability to resist then frankly they're kind of lame supervillians.
Sith take time to shake off pain all the time (most obviously, whenever someone's lightning'd). Even if you can draw power from pain, it takes effort and the initial pain is still disruptive.
Originally posted by Q99
Sith take time to shake off pain all the time (most obviously, whenever someone's lightning'd). Even if you can draw power from pain, it takes effort and the initial pain is still disruptive.
As an example Darth Malgus was unfazed by pain; no matter how great, and he could easily channel it for power. When he was bombarded with a powerful burst of Force lightning, the great pain he felt rather boosted his strength and resolve to fight back.
Therefore, command of the Force makes considerable difference. To properly contend with someone as able as Sidious, one has to have great understanding of the Force to give him a taste of his own medicine.