Maul Brothers vs. Bane

Started by S_W_LeGenD18 pages

Originally posted by Pwned
From the video, it looked like Sidious was not exerting himself at all. He casually dodged sabers, and utterly tooled them. I don't see where this debate is coming from.

I have recently watched the footage and it does seems to give the impression that Sidious was putting effort in this fight. It is another thing that he was too strong for the brothers.

Sidious possibly laughs during his fights to psychologically influence his opponents; to give them an impression that he isn't getting much challenge.

One thing is saying he put effort, another is saying there was parity on the duel and that Maul is very close to Sidious in saber combat.

Just... No.

Originally posted by juyomaster34
Ok a sarcastic grin... lol.
Maul did put a fight.
I wonder what he meant by "other uses"?
Will we see Dooku vs Maul for the title of Apprentice?

Or will we see Maul as some kind of test or experiment?

I would love to see Dooku vs. Maul, but it seems pretty clear that Sidious views Dooku to be Maul's superior in pretty much every way.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
but it seems pretty clear that Sidious views Dooku to be Maul's superior in pretty much every way.

Not really. Sidious has no apparent interest in reclaiming Maul as an apprentice, but the reason is never given. It could be that he views Maul as the lesser warrior; it could also be that Dooku is the public leader of the Separatists and, like Grievous, is relatively important to his greater agenda. Or it could be a bit of both.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
[B]
When have Count Dooku demonstrated the ability to utterly destroy individuals of the caliber of Lord Scourge and Meetra Surik with FL?

He doesn't need to. He's fought on the level of most powerful Jedi Master in the history of the Old Republic. That is a far greater feat than Revan or Nyriss, or pretty much anyone in TOR timeline has.


Sidious seems to be close to Nyriss in this aspect. However, I am hesitant to put even him on par with Nyriss in this context since he haven't utterly destroyed powerful opponents with FL either.

You mean to imply that Darth Nyriss has force lightning on the level of the most powerful Sith Lord in history?


Make no mistake; Nyriss is actually an extraordinarily powerful Force-wielder and can be easily ranked among the most prominent ones in the mythos. She put the likes of Nihilus, Traya and Sion to shame and these 3 aren't weaklings either but very powerful individuals in their own right.

Traya and Sion are unquantifyable and Nihilus was killed by a plot element.


Dark Councilors of TOR era comprise of some real bad@sses.

I don't deny that. What I will deny however is Nyriss being as powerful as Dooku or...Sidious

Lol. Nyriss is above Dooku imo.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
He doesn't need to. He's fought on the level of most powerful Jedi Master in the history of the Old Republic. That is a far greater feat than Revan or Nyriss, or pretty much anyone in TOR timeline has.

I respectfully disagree.

This is performance of Darth Nyriss in single combat:

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Lord Scourge is a rip-off of Darth Bane and Raskta Lsu in martial aspects and Meetra Surik in the Force:

1. During his time at the Academy, Scourge had discovered that there were many ways to draw upon the power of the Force. His natural talents had led him down the path of the warrior: learning to channel his emotions into strength and raw outbursts of lethal energy. (SWTOR: Revan)

2. "I have studied your records from the Academy and observed your battle with the mercenaries in my courtyard," she said at last. "You have a special gift. You do not just feed on the raw emotions of your foe; you gorge yourself on them. You feast on their primal fear. It amplifies your hate and anger. It fuels the power of the Force. It transforms you into an instrument of death and destruction." (Darth Nyriss to Lord Scourge)

3. SCOURGE WAS AN EXPERT SWORDSMAN; at the Academy even the instructors had been reluctant to face him in the training ring. When the dark side flowed through him, his blade was more than a weapon. It became an extension of his will. (SWTOR: Revan)

4. As the Sith Emperor's personal executioner, the grimly fatalistic Lord Scourge has personally killed more than a hundred Jedi–and ten times as many Sith. (SWTOR: Codex Entry)

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Meetra Surik needs no introduction IMO. She is also powerful and battle-hardened. She participated in the Mandalorian Wars and proved to be instrumental in the downfall of the dangerous Sith Triumvirate. Martial skills wise, she matches Lord Scourge.

-------

Regardless of the talents of Lord Scourge and Meetra Surik, this is how the battle unfolded between them and Darth Nyriss:

"Someone's coming!" Meetra said.

Scourge turned to the guards still sitting on the floor.

"Ready your blasters, you fools!" he shouted.

As they scrambled to their feet, T3 let out what could only be described as a shriek of terror. An instant later, the little astromech came tumbling down the stairs and bounced across the floor as if he'd been shot from a cannon. He landed in the corner on his back, his wheels still spinning.

"Get Revan out of the way," Scourge said to Meetra.

As she dragged the Jedi's unconscious body into the nearby cell, one of the guards drew his weapon, while the other rushed over and picked his discarded blaster up from where Revan had kicked it aside.

Scourge nodded at the guards. In response to his silent command they crept to the foot of the stairs and peered up toward the door above.

A burst of purple lightning arced down the steps, catching both men in the chest. They barely had time to scream before they were turned into charred and smoking husks.

Scourge took a step back, knowing exactly who had been responsible for unleashing the fury of the dark side against the hapless guards.

Nyriss made her way slowly down the stairs, the outspread fingers of her left hand still crackling with electricity. In her right hand she held her lightsaber, the blade humming softly. By the time she reached the bottom, Meetra had emerged from the nearby cell.

She ignited her lightsaber and came to stand beside Scourge.

"What's this?" Nyriss asked, her voice mocking. "Another Jedi?"

When neither of them answered, she turned her head to the side and laughed bitterly. "The Imperial Guard will make sure I never leave my stronghold alive," she told them. "But neither will any of you."

She raised her free hand above her head and fired off another burst of lightning. Both Scourge and Meetra threw themselves clear of the deadly electrical bolt, but in doing so they gave Nyriss the early advantage.

Before they could recover, she leapt at them. Despite her withered appearance, she moved with the all the speed and ferocity of a dark side warrior in her prime. She landed right between her two adversaries, her blade flashing back and forth in a series of slashes and cuts that immediately threw her two opponents on the defensive.

Scourge barely managed to parry the first wave of her assault, unable to even think about countering with an attack of his own. Another quick thrust forced him off balance and he staggered backward.

Nyriss seized on the opportunity to focus all her efforts on breaking through Meetra's defenses. The Jedi was clearly overmatched; though she managed to hold her ground, she was forced down to one knee.

In the awkward position her right flank was exposed and Nyriss brought her blade in to deliver a crippling cut. At the same time, Scourge lashed out with the Force, catching Nyriss flush in the center of her chest.

An ordinary foe would have been thrown clear across the room, but Nyriss instinctively threw up a Force barrier to protect herself, absorbing and redirecting the brunt of the impact. Even so, Scourge's attack knocked her off balance just enough to send her lightsaber wide of the mark, giving Meetra the opportunity she needed to scramble away to safety.

Scourge rushed forward, hoping to drive Nyriss back into a corner, but she met his charge with an invisible wave of rippling energy. It picked Scourge up and tossed him head-over-heels, sending him crashing to the wall.

Dazed, he looked up just in time to see another bolt of violet lightning catch Meetra in the chest. Like Nyriss, she threw up a barrier to save herself from the worst of it, but she was still knocked from her feet.

"Did you think I would be as easy to defeat as Xedrix?" Nyriss shouted, raising her lightsaber triumphantly above her head.

The air around her began to crackle and grow hot as she gathered herself for the killing blow. Scourge felt the energy building inside her, and he knew he would be powerless to stop it. Nyriss was too powerful; her command of the dark side was too strong.

"Gaze upon me and see your doom!" she declared. "I am Darth Nyriss, Lord of the Sith. I am the conqueror of Drezzi, the destroyer of Melldia, and a member of the Dark Council!"

Scourge braced himself for the end.

You see how much powerful and dominant Darth Nyriss is?

Her performance is arguably even more impressive then that of Darth Sidious against the brothers; it can be safely argued that Lord Scourge and Meetra Surik are more skilled and accomplished warriors then the brothers. And yet this duo of powerful and accomplished warriors terribly failed against Darth Nyriss.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
You mean to imply that Darth Nyriss has force lightning on the level of the most powerful Sith Lord in history?

Being most powerful doesn't means that Sidious is at the top of every talent (he would be logically good in all aspects of the Force for sure but he has some weak points too; we need to focus on how he developed his powers; and what kind of powers he honed in to a lethal weapon). Also, Sidious's position as the most powerful Sith has been under question lately since in a recent "real world perspective" based source from Mr. Pablo (which is the first source to feature both Vitiate and Palpatine); no Sith Lord have been declared as most powerful in history which is a positive shift within the mythos.

TOR era legends possessed extraordinary command of the dark side; these guys heavily focused on developing their dark powers with the intent to maximize their effectiveness. In fact, much of the dark side knowledge that Darth Sidious acquired is actually from ancient sources.

Darth Sidious specializes in torturing with his Force Lightning like Darth Malak; both of these individuals honed their FL abilities in this manner. Both can actually kill with their FL abilities but they will be slow in accomplishing this feat against strong opponents.

Darth Nyriss, on the other hand, honed her FL abilities in to a lethal weapon (her signature power); she could quickly and utterly destroy even powerful individuals with her FL abilities. Only extraordinarily powerful individuals would stand a chance against her; individuals with great understanding of the defensive abilities of the Force specially.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Traya and Sion are unquantifyable and Nihilus was killed by a plot element.

Unquantifiable? Allow me to quantify them then:

Darth Sion:-

Darth Sion's body had been torn apart and knitted back together into a patchwork of mutilated flesh. This left him in eternal pain, his broken body held together only by his hatred and power of the dark side. Sion was exceedingly difficult to kill, because his mastery over his own body lent him supernatural vitality. (Star Wars The Complete Encyclopedia)

Darth Traya:-

Although Traya was more powerful, the Exile managed to defeat her in combat. (Star Wars The Complete Encyclopedia)

Darth Traya was very powerful; she exterminated several Jedi Masters simultaneously like fodder with her signature power. She shouldn't be underestimated.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
I don't deny that. What I will deny however is Nyriss being as powerful as Dooku or...Sidious

Honestly speaking, Dooku's command of the dark side is a joke in comparison to the elites of TOR era. Sidious used him as a stop-gap measure between Maul and Anakin. When I say this; my intent is not to project Count Dooku as a weakling; he was a powerful and talented individual (good enough to gain attention of Darth Sidious); a very fine swordsman as well. However, Count Dooku is not an elite Sith material unfortunately. In a contest of dark side powers, Darth Nyriss will WTFpwn Count Dooku. Sidious may also be able to do the same; OT and Post-OT.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
I would love to see Dooku vs. Maul, but it seems pretty clear that Sidious views Dooku to be Maul's superior in pretty much every way.

Dooku almost certainly has superior force powers, but a Saber fight would definitely be close. I'd give a dual saber wielding Maul the edge there personally. He's always been said to have exceptional Jar Kai skills.

As for Sidious saying you've been replaced. Well let's not forget he already has Dooku's replacement lined up- Skywalker.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Dooku almost certainly has superior force powers, but a Saber fight would definitely be close. I'd give a dual saber wielding Maul the edge there personally. He's always been said to have exceptional Jar Kai skills.

As for Sidious saying you've been replaced. Well let's not forget he already has Dooku's replacement lined up- Skywalker.


Well said.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Well, because Savage managed to get a hit in on Sidious while Sidious had his attention on Maul,

Which means it wasn't easy for him to keep his attention on both.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
And because Sidious gasped for air after putting Savage on his ass with a kick. I think it's pretty obvious that they were overpowering him.

No, but it's pretty obvious he was struggling in the Saber portion of the fight, and needed to resort to his superior force powers to handle their combined strength.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Hell, Maul by himself is almost equal to Sidious in sabers, because while in a state of rage, he managed to last about 20 seconds against Sidious, who wasn't even trying to kill him.

Funny because your the one who spent pages arguing any fully trained Sith Lord can use their full rage any time.

Anyway he didn't just last 25 seconds. He was fighting Sidious on equal terms for 25 seconds and even had him on his knees at one point. Oh and there was no smiling or laughing in that fight until Maul was disarmed.

If it was just grapple arms attacking Jacen then how do you explain his seat shooting forward and all the other damage inside the ship? Ares is also right in that if they'd already grabbed him the how could he have dodged aside at the last second to avoid... them grabbing him?

It is common internal damage, when something hits vechicle. Strange you couldn't figure it out yourself.

What? Are you saying you're not making an assumption?

Anyway, notice what's going on. Had the grappling claws been ripping apart the ship then they would not need to grab onto the ship as they would already be gripping it.


Where that says that they needed to grab ship? How are they supposed to damage engine, if their are busy with holding it? It makes sence that they first would be used to damage engine and only then for grabbing.

"Something metallic inside the fuselage shrieked. He had a sense of someone rummag-ing furiously in the drives as if looking for a dropped hydrospanner, throwing fragments into the coils."

Such description applies well to some sophisticated device operating inside engine.

And tell me, if it is TK, then what's the point of making weak TK push, then sophisticated TK described as "looking for a dropped hydrospanner" and only then make a full blown attack, when Jacen alreadu put up Force defence? Why not just Force crash engine straight away like that command chair before Jacen has any chance to put up Force defence?

And if Luke's TK is so much beyond Caedus, why it didn't show during their actual fight? That simply doesn't make sense. Luke got badly battered, it makes sense for him to try to use every advantage and he did:
"Jacen wasn't going to surrender, and Luke wouldn't have believed him if he offered. It was better to attack quickly, while he still had the advantage.
...
Only one leg remained caught, though it was still entwined in a half a dozen places. Luke limped forward, circling toward Jacen's trapped side
".

Apart from that we have plenty of feats to establish Lukes capabilities.

Assumption that Luke's TK was so powerful that could reap through Jacen's defence and cause such damage to ship becomes weak, when we know that his TK can be countered directly by other characters:
"Luke extended himself toward the glow, slamming his Force presence into Welk. It was like trying to push Qoribu out of orbit. Welk continued to come, bringing his blade around in a brazen full-reach attack".

This assumption becomes weaker, when we know that Luke fails to do anything with TK to another ship protected by Force user:
"It skidded forward, leaving a meters-wide trench in the ground. Its nose lifted before it had traveled thirty meters, and it went airborne. Luke reached after it, a clear exertion of telekinetic Force power, then dropped his hand.
He looked rueful. "He's countering my power"
".

This assumption becomes even weaker, when we know that Jacen's Force barrier can deflect turbolaser strikes and that he can lift 40x20m starship against planet gravity.

This assumption becomes completely pointless, when we know that TK feat that made Luke strain so much that his skin started to "nettle" from overloading was replicated by Jacen in exactly the same scenario.

Moreover, don't forget that I am Luke's fun and will be the first one to argue that Luke is the best all-out combatant in entire EU and will beat whoever. But, seriously, no need for rediculous hype.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
That's because he isn't. Lucas specifically declared that "you have to be Mace or Yoda to compete with the Emperor" (The Making of Revenge of the Sith. Are either of these characters an alter ego of Obi-Wan's?

Nice try. But this statements applies to all-out fight. But here argument is about saber skill and speed.

The difference being that Windu did not express his bloodlust and maintained composure, testament to the difficulty of the fight. With respect to Ganner, you neglected the phrase "slaughter effortlessly" which supports my point rather than yours.

My point was clear. Joy and relshing fight in SW boosts performance just like anger, rage, love and sacrfice. How Ganner slaughtering them effortlessly supports your point? He was able to slaughter them effortlessly because of joy on first place, before that even lone Vong was a challenge for him.

As for Sidious letting brothers go and allowing Maul to mourn doesn't prove he held back in saber fight.

In DE in first fight with Luke he goes as far as allows Luke to Force attack him and he didn't want to kill him as the end of fight proves.

In second fight he electrocutes him, yet, allows to stand up.

My question is: are you willing to assume that Sidious held back on sabers because he didn't want to kill Luke and allowed him to stand up?

The quote says nothing about an "all out fight" especially since the Force was not actively used by Mace or the Jedi Council when they confronted Palpatine. Ergo, Obi-Wan does not qualify for competition with Sidious on any level of combat.

Sidious allowing Maul to mourn proves be wasn't fighting for his life or felt that he was in any deal danger. More importantly, he flat out told Maul he had no intention of killing him.

Originally posted by Arhael

No, it's totally unreasonable. Sidious was in no hurry to kill Yoda. Sidious was in no hurry to kill Luke in DE on both occasions, then he was in no hurry to unleash a Force Storm. Even when Windu put him on his ass, he was in no hurry to attack him with lightning. It is even more unreasonable, when we know that Official website instead of saying that Sidious went easy on them says: "Fueled by the dark side, Sidious is transformed into an agile, whirlwind of destruction".
It is even more unreasonable, when Filoni himself instead of saying that Sidious went easy on Opress says: "He puts up a better fight than the Jedi Council did".

YouTube video

[list=1]
[*]Sidious pins the Zabraks
[*]Savage charges Sidious
[*]Sidious pulls the Zabraks
[*]Sidious kicks Maul
[*]Sidious elbows Savage
[*]Sidious cartwheel kicks Savage
[*]Sidious hurls Maul
[*]Sidious kicks Savage
[*]Sidious kicks Savage again
[*]Sidious impales Savage
[*]Sidious pushes Savage
[*]Sidious kicks Maul
[*]Maul kicks Sidious
[*]Sidious disarms Maul
[*]Sidious throws Maul on the ground
[*]Sidious throws Maul against the wall
[*]Sidious throws Maul on the ground again
[*]Sidious electrocutes Maul
[/list=1]

This is exceptionally lopsided, even without direct application of the Force.

Arhael
The book title is revelation and ironically I have one for you, it was not Luke's TK that damaged the ship:
"In the moments before he managed to veer off to starboard, al-most blinded, he got a glimpse of a StealthX's uneven out-line with two grappling arms extended, and the sense of a Jedi other than Luke.

They'd tried to cripple the StealthX and grab him, air-frame and all, right in the middle of the fleet".


Well this is good to know, I'd never seen the whole passage before.

Arhael
Anyway. You two made a decent job at trying to overhype Luke.

Eh? Don't mistake me for someone else, ho. The issue above is conceded, we can interpret that bit to be a product of Jacen's confusion. The only other part of your argument I addressed was the extent of his vulnerability when pinned in Inferno, and all that involved was taking the text at face value (except I was familiar with the context this time). I am not suggesting that Luke could simply ragdoll a wary, healthy Jacen at the onset of a battle, if that's what's upsetting you.

Luke's triumphs depend greatly on mindset. One need only reference his clashes with UnuThul to see that.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
He had his Force powers available to him the whole fight and used them to keep his position of superiority.

Opress gets past his defenses and knocks him off the balcony. Sidious uses his force powers to grab both brothers and pull them down. Hence keeping his position of superiority.

Maul and Opress tiring Sidious in Sabers, so he floors Opress and knocks Maul out with his Superior force powers. Hence keeping his position of superiority.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER

If you didn't see anything even close to parity in the last Saber duel then I really don't know what you were seeing.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER

And he begged for his life after Sidious starting using his Force powers on him. That has no relevance to a discussion on best Saber duelists.

Also people keep ignoring that Maul had Sidious on his knees at one point in that last fight. Considering what a close saber fight it already was, that's kind of important.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER

But personally from what the fight showed I think there was a level of parity in the whole Saber fight, apart from the Sidious vs Opress one on one.

Maul definitely proved himself to be up there as a Saber duelist.

Originally posted by Arhael
Where that says that they needed to grab ship? How are they supposed to damage engine, if their are busy with holding it? It makes sence that they first would be used to damage engine and only then for grabbing.

Because it's coming in to grab him. Had it already been mucking around in the engines it would already be there. If not already grabbing Jacen's ship already well within grasping distance.

Originally posted by Arhael
"Something metallic inside the fuselage shrieked. He had a sense of someone rummag-ing furiously in the drives as if looking for a dropped hydrospanner, throwing fragments into the coils."

Such description applies well to some sophisticated device operating inside engine.

Also sounds like someone ripping apart the ship with the force.

Originally posted by Arhael
And tell me, if it is TK, then what's the point of making weak TK push, then sophisticated TK described as "looking for a dropped hydrospanner" and only then make a full blown attack, when Jacen alreadu put up Force defence? Why not just Force crash engine straight away like that command chair before Jacen has any chance to put up Force defence?

I don't know? Probably, because the Jedi wanted him alive and such an aggressive tactic it would have killed Jacen. But here is a better question, why use grappling claws to rip up a ship's engines when Luke using the force would work just as well?

Anyway, the next passage shows us that Jacen's defenses are no match for Luke's force powers when he smashes Jacen forward.

Originally posted by Arhael
And if Luke's TK is so much beyond Caedus, why it didn't show during their actual fight? That simply doesn't make sense. Luke got badly battered, it makes sense for him to try to use every advantage and he did:
"[i]Jacen wasn't going to surrender, and Luke wouldn't have believed him if he offered. It was better to attack quickly, while he still had the advantage.

PIS, CIS, LUke not thinking straight at the time, etc...

Originally posted by The_Tempest
The quote says nothing about an "all out fight" especially since the Force was not actively used by Mace or the Jedi Council when they confronted Palpatine. Ergo, Obi-Wan does not qualify for competition with Sidious on any level of combat.

Sidious allowing Maul to mourn proves be wasn't fighting for his life or felt that he was in any deal danger. More importantly, he flat out told Maul he had no intention of killing him.


This makes sense.