Originally posted by Jinsoku Takai
Let's see... laughing and grinning the ENTIRE time,
Kind of like he was against Yoda. Oh and not the entire time. Refer to his face expression before knocking Maul out.
Originally posted by Jinsoku Takai
not going for the kill on several occasions,,
Like when? Your assuming he could have killed them on those instances.
Originally posted by Jinsoku Takai
nonchalantly battling Oppress/toying with him,
When was that? As others have pointed out Sidious clearly showed signs of struggle and fatigue before his one on one with Opress. And considering he did kill Opress I don't know what your trying to prove here.
Originally posted by Jinsoku Takai
flat-out stating that he wasn't going to kill Maul,
Yeah after he had had killed Opress and defeated Maul. Who the heck says that was even his intention from the beginning of the fight?
Besides didn't Mace Windu defeat Sidious without killing him? Didn't Anakin defeat Dooku without killing him? Were either of them holding back?
Let's not pretend Sidious wouldn't have been willing to chop off a limb or 2. And that's even assuming he had already made up his mind about not killing him right at the beginning.
Originally posted by Jinsoku Takai
casually owning both of them with the Force...
This was his major superiority in the fight.
Originally posted by Jinsoku Takai
the list goes on and on and on...
No it's just all butt hurt at the Zabraks doing well in Sabers. Especially Maul.
If I was to analyze so desperately I would say Maul was holding back because he Flat out says at the beginning of the fight that he wants to serve Sidious.
I would say Opress wasn't out for the kill because when he knocked Sidious off the balcony he didn't use his Saber to stab him.
See how over analysis and speculation can go both ways yet?
Originally posted by Jinsoku Takai
And as was already pointed out; Sidious seems to laugh only when he's toying with another opponent and doesn't feel that he's in any danger.
Just refer to his fight with Yoda. He took a pause and didn't go for the kill when Yoda was knocked out. He was smiling while starting the Saber fight. He was laughing while throwing the senate pods. It's clearly in character for him to act in such a way.
Your gonna have to try harder JT.
Fact is Zabraks did well in Sabers, especially Maul. A lot of you here don't like that idea. So the unfounded unproven theory of Sidious holding back will continue but really shouldn't be used in versus threads anymore than than when people used to claim Sidious threw the fight against Windu.
@ DP
You bring forth some legitimate points.
Yes, Sidious could have killed Yoda early on when he knocked him out with a burst of his FL; but he didn't. Now based on this one moment of loss, should we assume that Yoda is no match for Sidious in combat and will always loose?
Star Wars is about dramatic conflicts; they keep us guessing.
Found this on the official website:
Sidious sees through Maul's lies -- he views the Zabrak not as an apprentice, but as a rival to be destroyed.
That clearly shows Sidious wasn't holding back when the fight began.
Spoiler:
which Tempest very sneakliy left out when he was quoting the same source.
There's also this:
Fueled by the dark side, Sidious is transformed into an agile, whirlwind of destruction.
That again doesn't sound at all like Sidious was holding back. That whole argument seems weaker with each official quote.
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
@ DPYou bring forth some legitimate points.
Yes, Sidious could have killed Yoda early on when he knocked him out with a burst of his FL; but he didn't. Now based on this one moment of loss, should we assume that Yoda is no match for Sidious in combat and will always loose?
Star Wars is about dramatic conflicts; they keep us guessing.
Exactly.
DP - At the beginning of his duel with Yoda he thought full and well that he had nothing to worry about until Yoda Force pushed his ass across the room. The same holds true when he was tossing senate pods at Yoda, who was trying desperately to not get crushed to death. His laughter occurs when he feels that he is in control and has nothing to worry about. And yes, he was smiling while dueling Maul, save for the brief kick to the chest that Maul delivered, at which point Sidious overpowered Mauls saber lock and finished things. Sidious could have finished that fight whenever he felt like it, and he did.
He was having fun out there, and it showed throughout the duel. Quit ignoring the obvious to further your very desperate argument.
And YES, Sidious could have killed them both from the get-go had he wanted to do so. He could have easily ping-ponged them all over the damn place, ESPECIALLY given their initial, uhmmm, positioning, and the fact that he was showing that absolutely no effort was being exerted in order to place them in such a predicament.
Sidious was laughing hysterically, as I do when playing/wrestling with my 2 kids. He was having fun out there. The moment that Maul made the slightest 'semblance of posing a threat, Sidious ended it.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Found this on the official website:[b]Sidious sees through Maul's lies -- he views the Zabrak not as an apprentice, but as a rival to be destroyed.
[/B]
Did he destroy him? NO HE DIDN'T... He said he wasn't going to kill him (That kind of shits all over your quote!). Therefore, he was HOLDING BACK.
I can sure as hell guarantee you that Maul, and by extension Oppress, wanted to kill him. BIG DIFFERENCE DP!
BTW: You'll have to try harder.
Originally posted by Jinsoku Takai
Did he destroy him? NO HE DIDN'T... He said he wasn't going to kill him (That kind of shits all over your quote!). Therefore, he was HOLDING BACK.
Not necessarily. Frankly, saying Sidious, despite how much he outmatched the brothers, was holding back is making far too many assumptions specifically since we do see signs of struggle from Sidious like getting hit twice and a brief moment of fatigue.
Originally posted by ares834
Not necessarily. Frankly, saying Sidious, despite how much he outmatched the brothers, was holding back is making far too many assumptions specifically since we do see signs of struggle from Sidious like getting hit twice and a brief moment of fatigue.
Not really. When Savage knocked Sidious off the balcony, we saw him smile. The only hit he took that elicited any serious reaction from Sidious was Maul's kick at the end; Sidious ended the fight one move later.
The fatigue is an indicator of expended energy, rather like Yoda, Sidious is demonically acrobatic.
We know he was enjoying himself and clearly courted battle. Otherwise he could have ended the clash in the throne room.
Originally posted by The_Tempest
Not really. When Savage knocked Sidious off the balcony, we saw him smile. The only hit he took that elicited any serious reaction from Sidious was Maul's kick at the end; Sidious ended the fight one move later.
Savage's blow may not have actually done anything, but he still managed to get past Sidious defenses. If Sidious truly outmatched the brothers by as much as some seem to believe that should not happen.
Originally posted by The_Tempest
The fatigue is an indicator of expended energy, rather like Yoda, Sidious is demonically acrobatic.
Sure. But that's the point, he did expend that much energy in the duel. If he was just toying with them there would be no need to. My point is Sidious is putting effort into this duel.
Originally posted by The_Tempest
We know he was enjoying himself and clearly courted battle. Otherwise he could have ended the clash in the throne room.
I'm not denying that. Only that once he engages them in sabers it does not appear he is holding back.
Originally posted by Jinsoku Takai
Did he destroy him? NO HE DIDN'T... He said he wasn't going to kill him (That kind of shits all over your quote!). Therefore, he was HOLDING BACK.
The difference is that canon quote is referring to the beginning of the duel. Whilst it was at the end of the fight he says he's not going to kill him.
There's your big difference.
Maul also makes it clear in the novel that Sidious was always "willing" to kill him but this was the first time he was actually "trying" to kill him. He can clearly tell the difference.
So canon quotes from the site and the novel all trounce speculation.
Originally posted by Jinsoku Takai
BTW: You'll have to try harder.
Hahaha
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
The difference is that canon quote is referring to the beginning of the duel. Whilst it was at the end of the fight he says he's not going to kill him.There's your big difference.
Maul also makes it clear in the novel that Sidious was always "willing" to kill him but this was the first time he was actually "trying" to kill him. He can clearly tell the difference.
So canon quotes from the site and the novel all trounce speculation.
Hahaha
Originally posted by Jinsoku Takai
And YES, Sidious could have killed them both from the get-go had he wanted to do so. He could have easily ping-ponged them all over the damn place, ESPECIALLY given their initial, uhmmm, positioning, and the fact that he was showing that absolutely no effort was being exerted in order to place them in such a predicament.
Originally posted by The_Tempest
We know he was enjoying himself and clearly courted battle. Otherwise he could have ended the clash in the throne room.
You're joking right?Took me a second to find it, but it could not be more clear how helpless Caedus was against Luke. He was fully aware of Luke before his uncle initiated the attack, yet could do nothing to stop it.
Here is another example of Luke pinning someone:
"Khai’s threat came to a startled end as he went sailing across the Pool. He slammed into the far wall of the grotto and remained there, pinned in
place by the invisible hand of the Force."
However, when fight started Gavar wasn't helpless and still could use the Force to attack Luke:
"Ben was vaguely aware of his own father diving toward the far side of the cavern, and the delicate clinkle
of Gavar Khai’s shikkar shattering on the stone floor behind him".
If he wanted to, he could have easily snapped their necks or Force Choked them.
By the way after analysing it more I see it as demonstration of surprise attack rather than overpowering.
Brothers didn't expect the attack. Maul was kneeling and submitting himself. Sidious even turned away from them making it look like he is no threat.
Then brothers got concussioned as result of both Force blast and slamming the wall. Then he kept pressing them with such strength that wall started crushing.
Imho being concussioned and pressed against the wall broke their concentration preventing them from using Force properly to counter Sidious.
Urgh, I can't believe you made me do actual effort in tracking down the manual. It says that Force Destruction 'This exploding force field power destroys everything near it.' So it's not a fireball either. Wookieepedia also says that there is other mentions of the power in The Book of Sith and the Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia (under energy trap). I'm attempting to find copies of these books to get you the quotes, so bare with me. If anyone reading this has those sources, please can you post the information for me, thank you.Also, you got that description from Gamefaqs, didn't you. 😐
If it says "destroy" in that source then spare your effort because destroy is not the same as vaporize and has many meanings:
4. To kill: destroy a rabid dog.
5. To subdue or defeat completely; crush: The rebel forces were destroyed in battle.
6. To render useless or ineffective: destroyed the testimony of the prosecution's chief witness.
In old Marvel cartoons "destroy" is used as replacement of "kill" to make it suitable for young audience.
And yes, I took that quote from bloody FAQ because manual is unavailable. >🙁
As Tempest said, we see that Sidious did not blitz them, not that he couldn't.
In Shadow Conspiracy Maul notes towards the end of the duel that Sidious is beginning to get faster, indicating that Sidious never fought at his full speed during the fight.
In any case that's not what happens in TCW, on opposite Sidious gets kicked right at the end, which doesn't really support this idea.
It also does not need to be said, if Vjun increases Dooku's power then it increases how powerful his force powers are, including force speed.
As I said, there is clear evidence that Sidious was not unleashing his full speed against them.
Yoda also tosses tank transport ships around with the Force. He is clearly immensely powerful enough so that Bane wouldn't be able to dominate him like he would the less powerful Zabrak brothers.His limits are well shown in AotC and ESB, which are higher canon than that mini cartoon.
Only when Maul was enraged did anything like parity manifest
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
You think Bane is a match for Sidious?
DE Sidious, would have a chance, though.
The featurette to The Lawless had Dave Filoni saying about Opress that: "He puts up a better fight than the Jedi Council did. I'll say that much for him."
So again there was no holding back. Opress is simply better than Tiin + Kolar + Fisto.
Every source on the subject is confirming there was no holding back by Sidious.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
The featurette to The Lawless had Dave Filoni saying about Opress that: "He puts up a better fight than the Jedi Council did. I'll say that much for him."So again there was no holding back. Opress is simply better than Tiin + Kolar + Fisto.
Every source on the subject is confirming there was no holding back by Sidious.
Gee, interesting... I don't recall Sidious toying with the Jedi Council with his lightsaber deactivated as he did with Oppress.
And Sidious CLEARLY (see what I did there DP?) took the arrest threat more seriously seeing as how he went STRAIGHT for the kill and was most definitely NOT laughing hysterically as he was against the brothers.