Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
Danny was about to die in the fight against Gorgon.
Danny was setting Gorgon up.
"Don't look behind you"? 😉
(Seriously though, you can't tell much from a single panel. They don't exactly move at human speeds, and DD beat Gorgons much closer killing strike with a dropkick...)
Originally posted by srankmissingnin
Except... you know... Wolverine did better against both Gorgon and Mr. X than Danny did, so that completely invalidates whatever point you were trying to make.
Logan did better? 😆
Only in feral mode vs Mr. X. He started holding his own against Gorgon near the end, but only because he could soak the insane damage Gorgon was dishing out. It wasn't the back and forth Danny/Gorgon was.
Originally posted by srankmissingnin
Dumbest post Ive ever read.If Lady Shiva is a mishandled jobber... then what exactly makes her more skilled than Elektra? A whole lot of nothing. Feat for feat she doesn`t stack up against Elektra. Clearly. Elektra beats Daredevil when they fight. Shiva loses to Batman. Elektra beats Taskmaster when they fight. Shiva loses to Prometheus. Spare me the list of excuses for why poor old mishandled Lady Shiva got jobbed out and counter with her actually doing something. Lady Shiva is all hype, and her hype has never been justified on panel. What makes Shiva more skilled than Elektra? That she is allegedly more skilled than Batman (someone who Elektra is also more skilled than...) but has never demonstrated it on panel... There is not a single concrete piece of evidence that Shiva is more skilled than Elektra, and thats all that matters in a debate.
👆
i've asked multiple times for shiva stuff to refute/counter the elektra stuff i know of and, well......a dearth of feats is an understatement. how anyone who is unfamiliar with either could look at this thread and see shiva winning is beyond me. i'm sure in a comic, it would be a hella fight. in the forum, based on evidence, this doesn't appear to be all that close....
Originally posted by leonidas
👆i've asked multiple times for shiva stuff to refute/counter the elektra stuff i know of and, well......a dearth of feats is an understatement. how anyone who is unfamiliar with either could look at this thread and see shiva winning is beyond me. i'm sure in a comic, it would be a hella fight. in the forum, based on evidence, this doesn't appear to be all that close....
I concur.
Shiva's a hype machine. That's about it.
Originally posted by cdtm
Logan did better? 😆Only in feral mode vs Mr. X. He started holding his own against Gorgon near the end, but only because he could soak the insane damage Gorgon was dishing out. It wasn't the back and forth Danny/Gorgon was.
Danny hit Mr. X once and jumped over a table. You need to stop over selling that "fight".
Have you read the Wolverine v Gorgon fights? Logan started out winning... then would get the boots put to him because Gorgon's damage soak was even better than his own. Wolverine tagged Gorgon early and often before being overwhelmed, he didn't Rocky him like you are implying.
Originally posted by leonidas
👆i've asked multiple times for shiva stuff to refute/counter the elektra stuff i know of and, well......a dearth of feats is an understatement. how anyone who is unfamiliar with either could look at this thread and see shiva winning is beyond me. i'm sure in a comic, it would be a hella fight. in the forum, based on evidence, this doesn't appear to be all that close....
She has breathed the same air as a Batman so Bat-brigade have to get up on their soap box and start preaching. It's absurd. Shiva is a hype train that never left the station, and these idiots are here to tell us how fast and powerful the train is.
Originally posted by srankmissingnin
Danny hit Mr. X once and jumped over a table. You need to stop over selling that "fight".
How many times did non feral Logan tag him? And Mr. X was nowhere to be found after taking the hit.
Have you read the Wolverine v Gorgon fights? Logan started out winning... then would get the boots put to him because Gorgon's damage soak was even better than his own. Wolverine tagged Gorgon early and often before being overwhelmed, he didn't Rocky him like you are implying.
Key word, "Overwhelmed."
Doesn't apply in the Danny/Gorgon fight.
Originally posted by cdtm
How many times did non feral Logan tag him? And Mr. X was nowhere to be found after taking the hit.Key word, "Overwhelmed."
Doesn't apply in the Danny/Gorgon fight.
Several. He was "nowhere to be found"? He as standing right next to Osborn seconds later. Danny hit him, jumped away, the Ghost phased him outside the building.
Because the Danny / Gorgon fight last 5 seconds and ended when Bendis Force Daredevil showed up and saved Iron Fist's pajama wearing ass from getting kill.
Because the Danny / Gorgon fight last 5 seconds and ended when Bendis Force Daredevil showed up and saved Iron Fist's pajama wearing ass from getting kill. [/B]
More like DD saved Gorgon from getting his head taken off, after he slipped that stab. 🙂
We're getting away from the main point: From their little sparring match, you wouldn't expect Danny to do anywhere as well against Gorgon as he did. One was domination, the other was a more even back and forth. One was against Logan. One was against someone who merely fought Logan.
A better example, maybe, is Surfer vs Bill and Thor. Huge difference in showings, huge difference in exposure/popularity.
Originally posted by cdtm
More like DD saved Gorgon from getting his head taken off, after he slipped that stab. 🙂We're getting away from the main point: From their little sparring match, you wouldn't expect Danny to do anywhere as well against Gorgon as he did. One was domination, the other was a more even back and forth. One was against Logan. One was against someone who merely fought Logan.
A better example, maybe, is Surfer vs Bill and Thor. Huge difference in showings, huge difference in exposure/popularity.
He lasted five seconds before Gorgon had him set up for a killing shot... I would expect Iron Fist is skilled enough to last at least 5 seconds against virtually anyone. For the life of me, I'm really not sure why you think that is a good showing.
Originally posted by srankmissingnin
Other than Shiva, Cass's best win over a martial artist in DC is Nightwing, who stepped up his game and was able to stalemate her the last time they fought prior to the reboot.
Wins/losses << feats, though.
They're the only objective measuring stick where characters get routinely jobbed out due to popularity.
Originally posted by srankmissingnin
He lasted five seconds before Gorgon had him set up for a killing shot... I would expect Iron Fist is skilled enough to last at least 5 seconds against virtually anyone. For the life of me, I'm really not sure why you think that is a good showing.
Why would I think Danny trading blows and avoiding hits against someone who Elektra couldn't even hit once, and who Logan got, as you say, "Overwhelmed" against (In a short time frame every encounter), is a good showing?
*Shrugs* I'm easily impressed?
I like how you're certain Gorgon would have killed him, though. Not like Danny could have avoided the hit, or taken it in a non vital area, or even was setting Gorgon up for Daredevil (Considering he told Gorgon the attack was coming, meaning he was fully aware of Matt's actions at the time.)
Originally posted by cdtm
Wins/losses << feats, though.They're the only objective measuring stick where characters get routinely jobbed out due to popularity.
Wins/losses are the only feats that exist for determining skill level. What else is there? Seeing who's kata has the best form and how many boards each character can break with they heads? There is wins/losses and there are pressure point feats... and Elektra wins in both areas.
This entire thread is absurd to be. Shiva is a jobber with unjustified hype... but we are supposed to ignore the fact that she jobs and doesn't have any wins to legitimize her reputation and give her the benefit of the doubt and assume she is more skilled than Elektra based on absolutely nothing? Why? If Elektra and Shiva fought in the comics, I'm sure it would be an even and competitive match, but we are not here to write comic books. We are here to assess, based on the on panel accomplishments of each character, who would win a fight, based on what we have actually see each character do. That's how debating works. If you took two random people off the street, with no knowledge of either character and you showed them the best combat feats each has under their belt, there is NO WAY THAT ANYWAY ONE WOULD HAVE THE IMPRESSION THAT SHIVA IS THE MORE SKILLED OF THE TWO.