Beta Ray Bill vs Supergirl

Originally posted by JakeTheBank
Marvel Wikia and Handbooks and the like are nice, but the actual comics supersede those.

And in this comic I'm looking at right now, #412 of Mighty Thor, the worthiness enchantment is clearly in effect.

As far as the Skrulls go...they made Galactus skrulls (wtf) and were able to fool Marvel Earth with their sleeper agents, bypassing Richards level tech and fooling even the most practiced mages. They even had their own "gods", so the Skrulls being able to work around Stormbreaker's enchantment with off panel shenanigans isn't the craziest thing in the world.

Still, for all intents and purposes under typical circumstances, Stormbreaker has a worthiness enchantment.

I'm obligated to raise one more objection even in this case, and that is that Superman himself was found worthy to lift Mjolnir, the archetype of these enchanted mallets.

If Superman was found worthy of the enchantment of Thor (not to mention Wonder Woman), what would make his similarly well-intentioned cousin ineligible from lifting Mjolnir's knockoff?

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
I'm obligated to raise one more objection even in this case, and that is that Superman himself was found worthy to lift Mjolnir, the archetype of these enchanted mallets.

If Superman was found worthy of the enchantment of Thor (not to mention Wonder Woman), what would make his similarly well-intentioned cousin ineligible from lifting Mjolnir's knockoff?

Well, one, in Superman's case, that was a crossover. A crossover that is technically canon, but has been decided by KMC's mods to be inadmissible. In Wonder Woman's case, as it happened in Marvel vs. DC, its canonical standing is way more dubious (though several comics reference it in a round about way). Anyway, the main point is that inter-company crossovers between Marvel and DC aren't usable.

Two, Superman was able to wield Mjolnir purely because Thor allowed it, as evidenced by the fact that Superman could not lift Mjolnir after they were done defeating Krona.

Three, Kara, while a good person in the general sense, doesn't have the right combination of moral fiber, honor, nobility, and a warrior's upbringing to be considered worthy. To that end, Superman and Wonder Woman alike are closer to the idea of "worthiness" than she.

And finally, even IF Kara is worthy and can lift Stormbreaker or Mjolnir (she can't), that doesn't mean she can keep it from returning to the grasp of its rightful owners.

In God Hunter, Bill was unable to lift the Stormbreaker because he become unworthy.

Originally posted by eaebiakuya
In God Hunter, Bill was unable to lift the Stormbreaker because he become unworthy.

👆

Originally posted by eaebiakuya
In God Hunter, Bill was unable to lift the Stormbreaker because he become unworthy.

Okay, now something like THAT would be good, strong evidence that there is a "worthy" requirement that must be met to wield Stormbreaker.

It would still have to contend with the Skrulls handling the hammer with ease, and other Urus being lifted by other people who weren't Beta Ray Bill, but that would be far and away the best case made for such an enchantment being there.

Which issue was this mentioned in?

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
Okay, now something like THAT would be good, strong evidence that there is a "worthy" requirement that must be met to wield Stormbreaker.

It would still have to contend with the Skrulls handling the hammer with ease, and other Urus being lifted by other people who weren't Beta Ray Bill, but that would be far and away the best case made for such an enchantment being there.

Which issue was this mentioned in?

The enchantment on Stormbreaker was shown decades before Godhunter.

Originally posted by JakeTheBank
The enchantment on Stormbreaker was shown decades before Godhunter.

Alright, for the sake of argument, I'll let it go.

For there are STILL 2 considerations regarding Stormbreaker.

1) If it IS like Mjolnir, and un-wield-able by Supergirl, there is still the probability of THIS happening, given that Kara (at least pre-Gates, certainly Loeb-era) was a quick-study strategist ...

(occurring to me mainly because I associate Bill with weird outer space adventures and Kara is physically strong and speedy; substitute Kara for Rulk and Bill for Thor, of course)

But in a NON PIS fight, the hammer will never generate lighting while being used like this.

Instead of Thor looking at the hammer and saying "in odin name" like in the picture, he could just "call" the hammer, like when Zeus himself grab that.

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
Alright, for the sake of argument, I'll let it go.

For there are STILL 2 considerations regarding Stormbreaker.

1) If it IS like Mjolnir, and un-wield-able by Supergirl, there is still the probability of THIS happening, given that Kara (at least pre-Gates, certainly Loeb-era) was a quick-study strategist ...

(occurring to me mainly because I associate Bill with weird outer space adventures and Kara is physically strong and speedy; substitute Kara for Rulk and Bill for Thor, of course)

I can post scans/issue numbers if you'd like if you're still not entirely sure about it.

It was later revealed that Rulk had absorbing powers, hence why he was able to generate lightning with Mjolnir's strikes. It wasn't just him exploiting the lack of gravity.

supergirl take it

Originally posted by JakeTheBank
I can post scans/issue numbers if you'd like if you're still not entirely sure about it.

It was later revealed that Rulk had absorbing powers, hence why he was able to generate lightning with Mjolnir's strikes. It wasn't just him exploiting the lack of gravity.

Scans or issues are ALWAYS a good idea to post in any serious discussion and, yes, I would appreciate them, for Rulk was not the first to do that even when it appeared, Iron Man had beaten him by at lest 20 years ...

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=14094660

.. though to be fair when gravity and ground are re-introduced the enchantment can re-assert itself:

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=14094663

But there's STILL the problem of Supergirl simply unexpectedly and quickly grabbing Bill's hammer-wielding HAND, and using that to beat Bill into submission.

For, IN a non-PIS fight, there's also no requirement that people must be able to withstand punishment enough to make fans of the "victim" character feel okay about what would otherwise be a clean knockout.

Witness Hulk doing what I'm describing, WITHOUT causing lightning strikes or absorbing Thor's power with many strikes here ...

... and Hulk takes out Thor in ONE shot by grabbing the hand grabbing the Uru hammer here.

We directly see the enchantment at work in issue #461 of Mighty Thor. Bill's fellow Korbanites decide that Bill should give his power to the people since there was no need for him as a protector of his people. So he decides to set Stormbreaker on a stone and he allows the entire populace of his world to attempt to lift the hammer, none of which succeed as none of them are considered "worthy" by the enchantment bestowed upon the hammer. And like already mentioned, we Bill himself lose his worthiness in the Godhunter mini-series. And we see it in play as far back as #412 of Mighty Thor.

As far as grabbing the hammer while Bill has it and forcing himself to strike himself, in the first instance of Hulk/Thor, it flies in the face of prior stories establishing that Mjolnir will not strike its master unless cursed or otherwise usurped by mystical means. And in the second case, Hulk was mind controlled and turned on Thor suddenly.

Using the hammer against either Thor or Bill is something that is, historically speaking, more unsuccessful than vice versa. Is it possible for it to happen? Sure, it has, after all happened on panel. But the instances of the hammer being unable to harm its master or its master being stunned to the point where he cannot simply will Mjolnir to fly away are more plentiful and as such, more likely to happen.

Originally posted by JakeTheBank

As far as grabbing the hammer while Bill has it and forcing himself to strike himself, in the first instance of Hulk/Thor, it flies in the face of prior stories establishing that Mjolnir will not strike its master unless cursed or otherwise usurped by mystical means. And in the second case, Hulk was mind controlled and turned on Thor suddenly.

Using the hammer against either Thor or Bill is something that is, historically speaking, more unsuccessful than vice versa.

Alright, for the sake of argument, I can accept that there is a "worthiness" spell on Stormbreaker.
I could accept that even without proof, and would have done so on request.

Likewise, I can also accept that, IF there is one, and you've made a good case now that there is, Supergirl would prove unworthy of meeting the requirement, though both Superman and Wonder Woman have in the past.

I can even accept that the lightning that courses through Stormbreaker could not be made to harm Bill in the same way that Supergirl was able to down Cassie despite HER weapon's lightning being god-inspired, because Rulk had something weird going for him when did that to Thor in Loeb's story.

You're going to have to fight for the right to say even Stormbreaker without lightning characteristics in Bill's HAND can't be used against him, though.

That simply doesn't make sense.

Especially when Mjolnir has been turned 3 times against Thor and I've just shown you all those instances.
You can dismiss the Rulk showing as Loeb-ism.
That's alright. That's fine.
Take one of those 3 away.

But I need to be shown something concrete to make me think HULK handling Thor in that way is something that shouldn't happen.

Or, by analogy, of course, Supergirl if she ever thought to direct Bill's hammer-hand against him in a fight where she's trying to score a quick knockout.

For Hulk has no Asgardian-magic absorbing power.
And Hulk is not facing Thor in either scan in zero gravity.

But he's also not directly grabbing Mjolnir, meaning there should not be any magic impediment to his (or Supergirl's) action.

Hulk's done it twice. The most recent example was when he was mind whammied by Thanos and suddenly turned on an unsuspecting Thor. And even given both those examples, we still have examples of Thor stopping Mjolnir from striking him when "used" against him. His will and control over his hammer is that absolute. There are instances where it's not, but the overwhelming majority shows us that Thor can't be taken out by his own hammer.

Hence why I said above that it's possible for Kara to do something similar to Bill, but not something I see happening often enough to cement it as a go-to tactic or something she'll try to do from the get go. To that end, I think Kara is more likely to try and pick up Stormbreaker only to realize something's up and she can't lift it.

A final consideration for the subtopic of Stormbreaker becoming a liability for Bill, illustrated once again with Thor and a "flying brick" opponent, again challenging the idea that Uru hammers are blessed to avoid harming their masters ...

And on panel, Ghost Rider has attempted to do the exact same thing Juggernaut did and Mjolnir halted itself. And even when the hammer is used against its master, more times than not, it's not enough to score a one hit ko.

Thor strength was never close superman,wonder woman
Supergirl was wonder woman strength level
I dont know how this thread bump

It is close enough where pure physical strength isn't the only deciding factor for such a fight.

There's also the vast energy projection, most of which is mystically based, that Thor/BRB possess.

Originally posted by JakeTheBank
It is close enough where pure physical strength isn't the only deciding factor for such a fight.

There's also the vast energy projection, most of which is mystically based, that Thor/BRB possess.