[QUOTE=14246787]Originally posted by -Pr-
[B]No, his strength would play a part too, and I am talking about feats. Superman might have more lifting feats, but Thor and Bill have plenty of combat feats to show that they can hang in a fight.
again,just magic can make thor has a change,superman has more feats can prove he was stronger,even far stronger
Originally posted by a88378438
[QUOTE=14246787]Originally posted by -Pr-
[B]No, his strength would play a part too, and I am talking about feats. Superman might have more lifting feats, but Thor and Bill have plenty of combat feats to show that they can hang in a fight.again,just magic can make thor has a change,superman has more feats can prove he was stronger,even far stronger
I don't agree.
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
Possible.News to me if it is, but I don't own the comic that came from.
Sure you're not confusing it with the following, though?
THIS one would be nearly exactly what you describe, and I'm not sure I'd accord even Silver Age Supergirl with the physical might to pull THIS off in a sanctioned and published comic:
This too is nonsense of course.
You should leave these debates to the people who've looked into both characters.
Stormbreaker-relevant URLs:
Hulk Mjolnir Dream Crush
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=14246806
Iron Man negates Mjolnir's enchantment by being in outer space.
(This eliminates any "ground" for Mjolnir to fall to ... for a time.)
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=14094660
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=14094663
Rulk uses the Outer Space cheat (and perhaps some Loeb-force absorption ability) to beat Thor with Mjolnir.
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=14246558
Kara uses the god-channeled magic lightning of Cassie Sandsmark's own lasso to take her down
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=14246053
Juggernaut uses the return feature of Mjolnir AGAINST Thor
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=14246644
Thor forges "tank hammer" ...
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=14247237
Hulk beats Thor with Mjolnir, by directing Thor's grip hand
(disputed showing)
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=14247245
Kara steals John Stewart's Green Lantern Ring, then uses it to knock him out.
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=14246028
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=14246030
Hulk one-shots Thor with Mjolnir. No absorbing ability. No magic.
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=14246587
J'onn J'onnz, one-third of the JLA trio that pulled planet Earth, is choke-subdued by "Dark" Kara. With one hand.
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=14246752
Stormbreaker-relevant LINKS:
Hulk Mjolnir Dream Crush
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=14246806
Iron Man negates Mjolnir's enchantment by being in outer space.
(This eliminates any "ground" for Mjolnir to fall to ... for a time.)
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=14094660
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=14094663
Rulk uses the Outer Space cheat (and perhaps some Loeb-force absorption ability) to beat Thor with Mjolnir.
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=14246558
Kara uses the god-channeled magic lightning of Cassie Sandsmark's own lasso to take her down
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=14246053
Juggernaut uses the return feature of Mjolnir AGAINST Thor
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=14246644
Thor forges "tank hammer" ...
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=14247237
Hulk beats Thor with Mjolnir, by directing Thor's grip hand
(disputed showing)
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=14247245
Kara steals John Stewart's Green Lantern Ring, then uses it to knock him out.
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=14246028
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=14246030
Hulk one-shots Thor with Mjolnir. No absorbing ability. No magic.
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=14246587
J'onn J'onnz, one-third of the JLA trio that pulled planet Earth, is choke-subdued by "Dark" Kara. With one hand.
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=14246752
Originally posted by currymanI don't understand ...
how any of this Thor stuff is relevant to BRB.
Thor is relevant to Beta Ray Bill in roughly the same way that Superman is relevant to Supergirl. Actually, far more so, unless you're of the mind that BRB is significantly more powerful or physically strong than Thor.
For if Thor IS greater than or at least equal to Beta Ray Bill, then showing the level of force and tactics that take out Thor is a reasonably good estimate of what it takes to bring Bill down.
Originally posted by currymanI don't understand what this spam is supposed to prove....
None of that was spam. All of it directly relating to something discussed or corroboration of some statement made before.
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Hulk Mjolnir Dream Crush
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=14246806
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You called Hulk beating Thor by grabbing his hand and directing Mjolnir a dream showing. The above is the dream showing I remember.
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Iron Man negates Mjolnir's enchantment by being in outer space.
(This eliminates any "ground" for Mjolnir to fall to ... for a time.)
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=14094660
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=14094663
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Most of the Beta Ray Bill engagements I've seen so far in this thread?
Have been outer space engagements. Where, far enough away from Earth, Mjolnir "no one can lift this hammer" spells FAIL for the lack of a ground to lift from. So Kara using Stormbreaker against Beta Ray Bill becomes a likely possibility. This scan just establishes that an outer space location defeats the "no lift" clause, and has been used for a VERY long time in comicdom.
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Rulk uses the Outer Space cheat (and perhaps some Loeb-force absorption ability) to beat Thor with Mjolnir.
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=14246558
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Another instance of Mjolnir's "no lift/wield/whatever" clause being defeated due to the battle taking place in space.
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Kara uses the god-channeled magic lightning of Cassie Sandsmark's own lasso to take her down
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=14246053
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Someone objected Rulk was able to do something he shouldn't have been able to do -- get lightning to come from Mjolnir when he beat Thor with it. Worthwhile to point out that no one is supposed to be able to use Cassie's lasso-magic against HER, either. But Kara did so just the same.
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Juggernaut uses the return feature of Mjolnir AGAINST Thor
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=14246644
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A fairly strong objection to the idea that Uru hammers can't be used against their "masters". Here, Juggernaut, quite lacking in anything that can be called great stealth or great speed, one-shots Thor (he's saved by the intervention of the New Warriors on the next page) by simply hitching a ride on Mjolnir.
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Thor forges "tank hammer" ...
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=14247237
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A strength feat for Thor, theoretically something Beta Ray Bill's strength might be able to duplicate; the only pure physical strength feat I've seen argued for Bill's side to this point.
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Hulk beats Thor with Mjolnir, by directing Thor's grip hand
(disputed showing)
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=14247245
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Self-explanatory. Hulk has no magic or absorbing power.
Beats Thor with his own hammer. There is nothing that says Mjolnir can't be used against its wielder if its wielder is still wielding it.
Jake says there is, but he needs to prove that claim if he wants it accepted.
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Kara steals John Stewart's Green Lantern Ring, then uses it to knock him out.
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=14246028
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=14246030
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Another instance of Kara doing something that "should not" be possible for her, according to someone in one of the comics ... which she does anyway. She challenges expectations all the time and is more than willing to test out new ideas in battle. This is more to establish the in-character likelihood of Kara going for Stormbreaker if knocking out Bill really becomes her goal than anything else.
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Hulk one-shots Thor with Mjolnir. No absorbing ability. No magic.
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=14246587
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The idea is sound -- grab onto the wielder of one of these Uru hammers and, if you're physically strong or masterful enough, you gain some physical control over the hammer itself. Enough to use it as a striking weapon, at least. Note that this instance, not dismiss-able as a dream sequence, not involving magic or power absorption, results in a one-strike knockout, even as Juggernaut's assault before it.
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J'onn J'onnz, one-third of the JLA trio that pulled planet Earth, is choke-subdued by "Dark" Kara. With one hand.
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=14246752
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Corroboration that someone can be IMMENSELY strong, strong enough to move, by fair estimate, a fifth to perhaps even a third or more of planet EARTH -- and still be helpless when Kara responds by applying her OWN physical strength to them in return.
Originally posted by curryman
The disputed showing is also from one of Banner's dreams.
Don't know either way. If so, that is an excellent reason for someone to dispute the showing. Conceptually, however, the idea of someone physically stronger using an Uru hammer against it's "master" is sound.
Hulk does it to Thor for real under the control of Thanos,
even as Red Hulk did that to Thor prior to that,
even as Juggernaut cleverly did so years earlier.
That's 3 other instances of the hammer being used against a Beta Ray-class character, whether that particular showing was a dream, hallucination, memory, or whatever. And Jake needs to respond to that with something concrete if he legitimately wants to advance the idea that Stormbreaker should somehow be expected to mystically protect Bill from allowing Kara to do that to him.
Originally posted by curryman
I don't understand why you've posted someone randomly cheap-shotting Thor
Kara is far likelier than her cousin or a grandiose "tank" character like Superboy Prime to strategically "blitz" or use her speed to gain advantage on an opponent. Especially if the plan is to disarm, "borrow", or use that opponent's weapon against them. She does it so fast in most cases that her opponents are cut off guard. Just like Thor was when Hulk attacked him in the scene you're referring to. Just as Beta Ray Bill would be unless he's used to fighting against opponents who use real speed in battle.
Originally posted by currymanI don't understand why you've posted ... Thor ... making a metal hammer
That hammer-crafting scene is the purest instance of a strength feat in this thread. Gives support to the idea that Thor is indeed strong and that Beta Ray Bill, being in Thor's class, should be somewhere near that level of strength, too -- certainly enough to affect Kara noticeably in a fight.
No other showing I've seen is as unambiguous or solo as that one.
The Asgard scene, for instance, was no only a shared feat, but also features hints of magic. Notice that lightning crackles around Beta Ray and Thor as they begin lifting Asgard. How much of that is them using physical strength? How much of that is magic?
The follow up scene puts that into question, certainly ...
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
Don't know either way. If so, that is an excellent reason for someone to dispute the showing. Conceptually, however, the idea of someone physically stronger using an Uru hammer against it's "master" is sound.Hulk does it to Thor for real under the control of Thanos,
even as Red Hulk did that to Thor prior to that,
even as Juggernaut cleverly did so years earlier.
Okay, so this is your point.
That Kara would use the hammer against Bill.
And these are your incidents;
- Two dream recollections.
- One incident of someone grabbing an unaware Thor's hand.
- Loeb Rulk grabbing Thor's hammer in space (which is possible).
- Juggernaut holding onto Thor's hammer while it's going back.
Two of these don't count.
The third didn't happen in combat.
The fourth was written by Loeb and happened just after Rulk killed a Watcher with one punch and right before he basically killed an alternate Galactus.
And the final one isn't even proof of Thor being overpowered!
And to further hurt your case, you post Martian Manhunter, the guy who does not need lungs or oxygen, bloodying Supergirl and then being choked by her. The shapeshifting, phasing alien gets choked 🙂
Originally posted by currymanyou post Martian Manhunter, the guy who does not need lungs or oxygen, bloodying Supergirl and then being choked by her. The shapeshifting, phasing alien gets choked
Kara's over-mastering strength had him in too much pain to concentrate and free himself. I got no problem with that.
Speaking more seriously, however, unless you're going to argue that Beta Ray Bill is going to shapeshift or phase if caught in a similar position, the point is well-made:
Supergirl is strong enough to choke-submit people that have moved planetary bodies, and that even after kryptonite exposure and being physically ambushed and folded in a fight.
In the case of J'onn J'onnz, that's exactly what she did.
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
Kara's over-mastering strength had him in too much pain to concentrate and free himself. I got no problem with that.
J'onn in pain 😆
He doesn't breathe and his body's jelly. How does he get choked?
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
Supergirl is strong enough to choke-submit people that have moved planetary bodies, and that even after kryptonite exposure and being physically ambushed and folded in a fight.
He was one of three people who moved it and it's impossible to say how much he put in.
Furthermore it's not proof that she's stronger, it's proof that she can choke the man who doesn't need to breathe or stay solid. I'm sure a sharp fellow like yourself can reason himself all the way to the finish-line and realize how silly that fight was.
I'm not sure why you're so fond of her fight with Wonder Girl considering Dr.Light had no problems taking control over her lasso as well, and that magic is fueled by a less powerful deity than Stormbreaker is and at the time Ares was convincing Cassie that she needed to accept more of his power 🙂
Originally posted by curryman
J'onn in pain 😆He doesn't breathe and his body's jelly. How does he get choked?
He was one of three people who moved it and it's impossible to say how much he put in.
Furthermore it's not proof that she's stronger, it's proof that she can choke the man who doesn't need to breathe or stay solid. I'm sure a sharp fellow like yourself can reason himself all the way to the finish-line and realize how silly that fight was.
I'm not sure why you're so fond of her fight with Wonder Girl considering Dr.Light had no problems taking control over her lasso as well, and that magic is fueled by a less powerful deity than Stormbreaker is and at the time Ares was convincing Cassie that she needed to accept more of his power 🙂
supergirl strength was always close superman,your piont just shit,supergirl ,powergirl,wonder woman put together also cao move the earth,Thor or bill strength was no match for them