DBZ: Battle of Gods

Originally posted by juggerman
Mystic Gohan is vastly superior to SSJ3 Gotenks and even more so to SSJ3 Goku. Remember that SSJ3 Goku admitted he had no chance against Super Buu. Also Super Buu was holding back against SSJ3 Gotenks so he could absorb him when they kids refused.

Here's Goku admitting Buu is too much even tho his SSJ3 was well known:

http://www.manga2u.me/Dragon_Ball/507/12/

Here's Buu admitting he let the fight drag out cuz he felt Gohan's power:

http://www.manga2u.me/Dragon_Ball/500/12/

As you can see the only one stronger than Super Buu was Gohan. Gotenks was strong enough to put up a good fight but he couldn't win. And Goku knew he stood no chance what so ever. It goes like this:

Gohan>>>>>Super Buu>>>SSJ3 Gotenks>>>>SSJ1 Gotenks=SSJ3 Goku>>Kid Buu>>>>Fat Buu.

Which is why I admit that Gohan at that level was slightly superior to Gotenks. Gotenks held his own and even managed to gain the upper hand against Buu before the fusion wore off. Gohan stomped Buu but it wasn't leaps and bounds beyond Gotenks' performance.

Originally posted by CosmicComet
Kid Buu is above Fat Buu, about equal with Evil Buu (the grey buu) and far below Super Buu.

IIRC, kid buu was likewise made up of both buus(theoretically). Didn't he become even more powerful once fat buu was ejected? That would make him stronger than Super Buu imo.

Originally posted by TheGodKiller
Mere statement. If he had actually gone up against him and been stomped in a one-sided battle, then I would buy that whole "he couldn't stand a chance against Super Buu".

Which is why I admit that Gohan at that level was slightly superior to Gotenks. Gotenks held his own and even managed to gain the upper hand against Buu before the fusion wore off. Gohan stomped Buu but it wasn't leaps and bounds beyond Gotenks' performance.

Not at all just mere statements. Goku would have known where he stood power wise to Buu. When it comes to sensing power Goku is an expert.

Much more than slightly. Buu allowed the fight to prolong. He was already superior to Gotenks but wanted to be able to defeat Gohan. And Gohan stomped the shit outta Buu. That's better than a "slight" advantage

Originally posted by TheGodKiller
Super Buu was fat buu+ evil buu.

IIRC, kid buu was likewise made up of both buus(theoretically). Didn't he become even more powerful once fat buu was ejected? That would make him stronger than Super Buu imo.

I think Kid Buu was Buu absent all "goodness" since he only became "Super" and "Fat" due to the absorbtion of the gods. Fat Buu was ripped from him by Vegeta so it was no longer a part of him, just inside of him. That's how i took it at least.

Originally posted by TheGodKiller
Super Buu was fat buu+ evil buu.

IIRC, kid buu was likewise made up of both buus(theoretically). Didn't he become even more powerful once fat buu was ejected? That would make him stronger than Super Buu imo.

The sequences of events are fuzzy since its been so long, but from what I remember:

Kid Buu was his original form. Kid Buu absorbed the strongest grand Kai (the huge one, South grand Kai) and that increased his power by a lot.

Kid Buu then absorbed the fat grand kai and that decreased his power by a lot and turned him into Fat Buu.

Super Buu is fat buu + evil buu with the fat buu's/fat kai's influence being almost entirely gone. He still has the power of the South Kai though, so he's above Kid Buu by quite a bit.

Kid Buu also fought Fat Buu and beat him no more easily than Evil Buu did.

Originally posted by juggerman
Not at all just mere statements. Goku would have known where he stood power wise to Buu. When it comes to sensing power Goku is an expert.

Much more than slightly. Buu allowed the fight to prolong. He was already superior to Gotenks but wanted to be able to defeat Gohan. And Gohan stomped the shit outta Buu. That's better than a "slight" advantage

That's the sort of sh1t that an arrogant villain who's met his match would say though. Plus, if he wanted to beat Gohan, why waste energy fighting Gotenks? That wouldn't have made him any stronger. Gohan stomped the sh1t out of Buu vs Gotenks who got the upper hand in a prolonged fight. Against Buu, that would be a huge advantage, compared to Gotenks, not so much.

Originally posted by CosmicComet
The sequences of events are fuzzy since its been so long, but from what I remember:

Kid Buu was his original form. Kid Buu absorbed the strongest grand Kai (the huge one, South grand Kai) and that increased his power by a lot.

Kid Buu then absorbed the fat grand kai and that decreased his power by a lot and turned him into Fat Buu.

Super Buu is fat buu + evil buu with the fat buu's/fat kai's influence being almost entirely gone. He still has the power of the South Kai though, so he's above Kid Buu by quite a bit.

Kid Buu also fought Fat Buu and beat him no more easily than Evil Buu did.

I haven't seen anything to indicate that Super Buu was physically superior to kid Buu.

It is not a mere statement. It's Toriyama's word as well. That's all it takes in DBZ to establish that someone is stronger. Ki sensing and all.

Goku wondered if Vegeta would fuse with him again to fight Super Buu when they were about to escape, because he knew they didn't stand a chance by themselves.

This has been established for years now. Kid Buu is not on Super Buu's level.

Where did Toriyama mention that Super Buu was superior to Kid Buu?

Unless they showed an actual fight between the 2, it's inconclusive whether or not SS3 Goku could have stood his ground against Super Buu. IIRC, SS3 Goku was able to rock the Piccolo+Gotenks-amped Super Buu once he returned with the Potara earrings.

Originally posted by TheGodKiller
Unless it was demonstrated in an actual fight(ala Cell vs Ascended goku), it [b]is a mere statement and should be treated as such.

That's the sort of sh1t that an arrogant villain who's met his match would say though. Plus, if he wanted to beat Gohan, why waste energy fighting Gotenks? That wouldn't have made him any stronger. Gohan stomped the sh1t out of Buu vs Gotenks who got the upper hand in a prolonged fight. Against Buu, that would be a huge advantage, compared to Gotenks, not so much. [/B]

Unless the character has good reason to make such a statement. Like for instance knowing what he's capable of. Know what his opponent is capable of. Watching his opponent in action. Watching his opponent fight evenly with a fighter greatly superior than himself. It's not just a random, off the cuff statement and should not be seen a such. And i'm glad you brought up Cell as this was another example of Goku knowing(without even fighting mind you) that he wasn't going to be able to defeat Cell. And knowing about Gohan's potential to greatly surpass everyone.

He wasn't wasting it at all. His regen is crazy and he very well wasn't going to just let Gotenks beat on him while he sat around waiting for Gohan. He couldn't feel Gohan's power in the room and as soon as he got out Gotenks put him in the ball and spiked him. Before he got up Gotenks made him aware of the time limit. So he allowed it to carry on further instead of just absorbing him then. Facing Gohan without the amp would have been fruitless and he basically said so himself

Originally posted by TheGodKiller
Where did Toriyama mention that Super Buu was superior to Kid Buu?

Unless they showed an actual fight between the 2, it's inconclusive whether or not SS3 Goku could have stood his ground against Super Buu. IIRC, SS3 Goku was able to rock the Piccolo+Gotenks-amped Super Buu once he returned with the Potara earrings.

SSJ3 Goku was stronger than both Kid and Fat Buu yet he admitted he couldn't beat Super Buu himself. The writer made it clear Super Buu was superior by a lot

Originally posted by TheGodKiller
Where did Toriyama mention that Super Buu was superior to Kid Buu?

Unless they showed an actual fight between the 2, it's inconclusive whether or not SS3 Goku could have stood his ground against Super Buu. IIRC, SS3 Goku was able to rock the Piccolo+Gotenks-amped Super Buu once he returned with the Potara earrings.

Goku never fought the Gotenks+Piccolo absorbed Buu. That was a filler scene in the anime. In the manga, it did not happen.

It's only with that filler that one could come to the conclusion that SSJ3 Goku wasn't far below Mystic Gohan, since he didn't do any worse against Gotenks Buu than Gohan did. I thought the same thing for years until I found that out.

Piccolo's sensing of Mystic Gohan's arrival noted that it was the strongest ki he ever felt, and he felt SSJ3 Goku's ki only, what, a few days at most before that?

Originally posted by juggerman
SSJ3 Goku was stronger than both Kid and Fat Buu yet he admitted he couldn't beat Super Buu himself. The writer made it clear Super Buu was superior by a lot

Never proven on-screen though. I can see why you would want to take his word alone to heart, but I for one would like to see the actual instance where SS3 Goku is outclassed by a Super Buu level being.

Originally posted by CosmicComet
Goku never fought the Gotenks+Piccolo absorbed Buu. That was a filler scene in the anime. In the manga, it did not happen.

It's only with that filler that one could come to the conclusion that SSJ3 Goku wasn't far below Mystic Gohan, since he didn't do any worse against Gotenks Buu than Gohan did. I thought the same thing for years until I found that out.

Piccolo's sensing of Mystic Gohan's arrival noted that it was the strongest ki he ever felt, and he felt SSJ3 Goku's ki only, what, a few days at most before that?

Hyperbole. Piccolo was also more shocked by the existence of a 3rd level of Super Saiyan when Goku transformed. Shock can sometimes overwhelm rational observation. Goku's ki level in that instance was felt across the Kais' resident dimensions. Doesn't say much about which of them was more powerful.

My take on the matter is that Gohan was as powerful as an SS3, just without it's natural stamina/gas tank problems. Which makes him more formidable than SS3 Goku, but not necessarily more powerful imo.

The anime has filler. Filler is not canon. Manga takes precedence. This is how it works in anime discussions.

Hyperbole does not cut it as an explanation in DBZ. DBZ is far more simplistic and straightforward than that. It's ki sensing. Simple as that. He stated Gohan's ki was greater than anything he had felt before. Every time they feel a power that overwhelms their senses, its because its a new plateau of power for their senses to be feeling. Every time they've felt a new power being 'above anything before it', its been shown to be accurate.

Originally posted by CosmicComet
The anime has filler. Filler is not canon. Manga takes precedence. This is how it works in anime discussions.

Hyperbole does not cut it as an explanation in DBZ. DBZ is far more simplistic and straightforward than that. It's ki sensing. Simple as that. He stated Gohan's ki was greater than anything he had felt before. Every time they feel a power that overwhelms their senses, its because its a new plateau of power for their senses to be feeling. Every time they've felt a new power being 'above anything before it', its been shown to be accurate.

It's hyperbole regardless. Piccolo displayed far greater shock when Goku transformed to SS3 than Gohan's appearance. Shock takes precedence over rational analysis in such scenarios. Inconclusive proof whether Mystic Gohan was more powerful or not.

This movie has already been placed within the manga timeline however. Toriyama stated which issues it takes place in-between.

Piccolo displaying greater shock simply means SSJ3 Goku was a bigger jump than anything he had felt before vs Mystic Gohan's arrival. Piccolo already felt SSJ3 Gotenks' and Super Buu's power, by the time Mystic Gohan came into the scene, so he simply wasn't as big of a jump for his senses. Even still, that's anime. Its harder to read the difference in shock levels when you're just looking at still pictures in manga.

Base Gotenks did no better against Fat Buu than Majin Vegeta did, who was on par with SSJ2 Goku. SSJ3 Goku is only a 4x multiplier over SSJ2. SSJ Gotenks would have been a 50x jump over Base Gotenks. SSJ Gotenks was still nowhere near enough for Super Buu.

Originally posted by juggerman
Mystic Gohan is vastly superior to SSJ3 Gotenks and even more so to SSJ3 Goku. Remember that SSJ3 Goku admitted he had no chance against Super Buu. Also Super Buu was holding back against SSJ3 Gotenks so he could absorb him when they kids refused.

Here's Goku admitting Buu is too much even tho his SSJ3 was well known:

http://www.manga2u.me/Dragon_Ball/507/12/

Here's Buu admitting he let the fight drag out cuz he felt Gohan's power:

http://www.manga2u.me/Dragon_Ball/500/12/

As you can see the only one stronger than Super Buu was Gohan. Gotenks was strong enough to put up a good fight but he couldn't win. And Goku knew he stood no chance what so ever. It goes like this:

Gohan>>>>>Super Buu>>>SSJ3 Gotenks>>>>SSJ1 Gotenks=SSJ3 Goku>>Kid Buu>>>>Fat Buu.

Originally posted by CosmicComet
The anime has filler. Filler is not canon. Manga takes precedence. This is how it works in anime discussions.

Hyperbole does not cut it as an explanation in DBZ. DBZ is far more simplistic and straightforward than that. It's ki sensing. Simple as that. He stated Gohan's ki was greater than anything he had felt before. Every time they feel a power that overwhelms their senses, its because its a new plateau of power for their senses to be feeling. Every time they've felt a new power being 'above anything before it', its been shown to be accurate.

So, is it safe to make a Bills versus Beta Ray Bill thread as of now?

Originally posted by Astner
So how powerful is Bills?

ie. 70% Bills>>>>SSJG Goku>>>>>>>>>>>>SSJ3 Goku/Mystic Gohan/Fat Buu/ALL DBZ. The only being more powerful than Bills is Whis, who was able to one-shot Bills with a casual hand-chop.