Cass (Batgirl) vs Captain America

F*ck you commies. Steve one shots her.

Originally posted by leonidas
i see cap as being able to defend against the pressure points--his natural speed can offset her ability to predict. he can also use them extremely effectively himself. he would only have to make solid contact once to shift this fight severely. if she missed her strike (and she is NOT infallible) he could end it far more quickly than she could. her precog is also not infallible and even knowing what's happening doesn't mean she could mount an offence or defence strong enough to withstand someone with borderline superhuman stats.

He's no longer borderline and is straight up Superhuman. At this point his average levels might very well be closer to Spider-Man than Batman.

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
F*ck you commies. Steve one shots her.

He's no longer borderline and is straight up Superhuman. At this point his average levels might very well be closer to Spider-Man than Batman.

😂 cool.... 👆

Cassies ability to predict moves is simply being glossed over.

Steve dodged sniper fire after its been shot, sniper fire is supersonic

Cap has also seen bullets coming at him then dodged

Lol @H1's argument that Cap will hold back being his only argument

Originally posted by namorsubby
Cassies ability to predict moves is simply being glossed over.

Or Steve is just good enough to get past it and win.

Originally posted by namorsubby
Cassies ability to predict moves is simply being glossed over.

Just because it's good enough to get her the win over Slade, doesn't mean it's enough against someone like Cap.

Cap cant counter it. No one whos going for him is even attempting to give any reason why it would be ineffective. There isnt one.

sure there is. even KNOWING something is coming doesn't mean that it can be adequately defended all the time, or that someone will necessarily possess the speed or skill to take full advantage of it all the time. you say we're ignoring it, but you're making it sound as though her skill and precog is perfect and infallible. that is manifestly untrue and sounds quite a bit like falling back on a no limits fallacy.

Originally posted by namorsubby
Cap cant counter it. No one whos going for him is even attempting to give any reason why it would be ineffective. There isnt one.

Just because Slade can't counter it, doesn't mean Steve can't.

Originally posted by h1a8

LOL you don't know much about wrestling or MMA do you? If a fighter is skilled enough they can easily prevent being taken down. It takes agility, reflexes, and speed and technique.

No actually it takes more than skill, it also takes the absence of a ridiculous strength advantage between the two fighters. You can't use two MMA guys of approximately the same strength level fighting in a cage to demonstrate your point. Yes, one of THEM will be able to sprawl and escape from one another. What shouldn't be disputable is that she will be unable to avoid the clinch, and if she cannot avoid the clinch, Cap takes her down with sheer strength.

Here is a clip of Ronda Roussey grappling with Gegard Mousasi

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o9xjs2fWJEs

Although there is no attempts at sprawling escapes made here (from what I remember ) you can see Rousey's Olympic level Judo and general grappling technique just get continually brushed aside by sheer power. No way Mousasi is a better grappler.

Plus Cap doesn't fight that way usually (especially against females). Cap will naturally hold back, underestimate her, etc. until it's too late.
She would have learned his style by then. Cass knowing up front that he's a lot stronger will easily resort to pressure point striking (and will succeed since Cap will underestimate her and open himself up more easily).

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It's the instinct of most males to grab women when they attack, especially if they don't want to hurt them. Of Course Cap doesn't normally fight that way, if he fought the way he normally did he would be closer to just going all out.

As for pressure points, well if you say their usually god in comic books I guess she may use them to break free, but I say she doesn't get a chance until she's already down..

It's not like she's as strong as she looks. By comic feats she's pretty much on the level of the guys. Slade's strength didn't really phase her. She's strong enough to litteraly jump to the top of a sky scraper by jumping back and forth between two tall buildings Mario style in the same amount of time it took Nightwing to zipline the same distance IIRC.

Originally posted by Konton
It's not like she's as strong as she looks. By comic feats she's pretty much on the level of the guys. Slade's strength didn't really phase her. She's strong enough to litteraly jump to the top of a sky scraper by jumping back and forth between two tall buildings Mario style in the same amount of time it took Nightwing to zipline the same distance IIRC.

She's also kicked through a brick wall and punched through bulletproof glass at a jail.

Batman once instructed her to KO a super tough meta in this words: "Hit him hard enough to crush a normal person's skull."

Originally posted by Q99
She's also kicked through a brick wall ."

lol Well if we're going by comic book feats alone instead of logic, physics and sanity 🙂 (a 2000 pound buffalo can't even do that).

But then we could supe up a lot of heroes by looking at comic book feats alone , including Cap.

Originally posted by cdtm
Nope, but he doesn't have many, and Cass has more, and more consistent, feats.

It's also pretty common for run of the mill aim dodging feats to get miss-labeled as bullet dodging, among all street levelers.. I think Batman only has one or two legit ones himself, and I don't consider him a bullet dodger by any means..

Good thing Cap is not Bruce.

As there resident with bullet time scenes, has noticed Steve is much faster then him.(Daredevil).

Plus Cass might have more bullet scenes but if you are really trying to go the super sonic route.(which is dubious considering her record against her A-list)

Cap has laser feats that decimate Cass super sound feats and many more in comparison to her. This logic I don't even agree with but just using your own logic against you.

Cap has laser feats that decimate Cass super sound feats

Does he? I mean, there is aim dodging a laser, but that doesn't require any more speed than aim-dodging anything else, it just requires you to not be there when the laser fires.

Cass's bullet dodging is noticeable that she is on multiple occasions shown to move after the bullet's left the barrel. Or in the most famous feat, moving into the path after it's left the barrel, on purpose, then leave again, because she can.

Then there's the feat of her dodging a sniper bullet.. after it left the barrel... and was only inches away from her head... with her back turned.. but she's a DC so it doesnt count.

Originally posted by Q99
Does he? I mean, there is aim dodging a laser, but that doesn't require any more speed than aim-dodging anything else, it just requires you to not be there when the laser fires.

Cass's bullet dodging is noticeable that she is on multiple occasions shown to move after the bullet's left the barrel. Or in the most famous feat, moving into the path after it's left the barrel, on purpose, then leave again, because she can.

Accept Cap has multy blocked random lasers with gauntlets not dodged as you claim but blocked with "hand" speed easily.

Also there is the other time when he has blocked multiple laser shots with this shield in different areas suggest again incredible reflex speeds.

Then there is the other time that the "rolled with the punch" only this time the punch was a laser beam to reduce the energies impact.

All these suggest laser time. Then there is the major one the time he dodged like 12-13 laser beams while under "zero" gravity.

Now this is one feat you can argue dodged the aim.....but all 13 beams and simultaneous dodged all of there tracking and while under zero gravity.

Then yeah.......you'll be up a creek with no paddle. Plus lets not forget it was explained that it's her body "reading" that lets her dodge the bullet in certain instances......because with that "she" can.

if you're all making a case for her being faster than cap, i can certainly entertain the argument. i've seen and read enough with cass to feel i know her character pretty well, but some scans to refresh and highlight might be helpful.

as for the strength disparity though, there is no way that's even close imo. speed and skill i could see someone believing either way. we have seen cap beat on spidey though, and i'd say his precog>cass's. and we've seen spidey focus his spidey sense many times so that it has essentially worked just like cass's in the past to predict very specific attacks. and fast as people claim cap or cass is, neither is in spidey's class. if he can get by pete's precog, i don't see why so many feel getting around cass's would be such a huge stretch. unless you want to fall on the old PIS argument, which i don't find valid in this case because of the consistency of cap's character and abilities.....

Originally posted by SamZED
Then there's the feat of her dodging a sniper bullet.. after it left the barrel... and was only inches away from her head... with her back turned.. but she's a DC so it doesnt count.

Sure it counts. But if we count these as "legitimate" speed feats. The Cap's count as well.

But it's irrelevant since they both get punched and kicked by characters who are not moving faster then a speeding bullet.

Spidey is a whole different story. As for Cass... going to need an expert... but off the top of my head I recall her shoving Deathstroke head first through a brick wall. Not bad. I do agree Cap is stronger though.